You would use them when you can
you could use them if they ran
you might use them with a plan.
you would use them in a sphere
you could use them without fear
you might use them with a sneer.
you would use them when you ram
you could use them to stop spam
what are they? green eggs and ham!

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Mark Kuyper;

I think I would rather break up a Hydran fighter strike with drones. I do not have to target every Stinger with a drone. The Stinger's have to guess. They can drop chaff sequentially hoping that the chaff pack that needed to be dropped is the one that actually makes a drone go away (makes it die roll), or they can wait to deal with the drones with phaser-G fire.

Using disruptor shots does not cut the mustard. You are NOT going to fire two (or three) disruptor pods in a single turn or within eight impulses of a previous firing. If you could, disruptor armed fighters would already be doing it. Three points of damage at 10 hexes range against a Hydran fighter does not do much, assuming you even get a hit.

By Jonathan Dean (Nightshade) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Keep in mind that the first Lyran carrier was introduced in Y171. Lyran PFs began production in Y178. Heck, I think the Lyran Interceptors started showing up in Y176. At the very most there are 7 years between when carriers are deployed and when Lyrans pretty much abandon fighters for good.

However, it gets even worse for the development of a new fighter weapon system as once the Lyrans begin development on the Lynx INT, the budget for a fighter system would probably be cut significantly if not eliminated outright. So figure the Lyrans have a 3 to 5 year period to really develop a fighter system before significant interference from the R+D development path which would end up with PFs. That just isn't alot of time.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 03:30 pm: Edit

The Lyrans never abandoned fighters. They used them on SCSs during the Andro War. A statement that they "pretty much abandoned fighters for good" is not consistent with the published history.

Still doesn't mean they need something cool.

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Marc: While the Kzintis and Federation (and Klingons, for that matter) could duplicate it, type-VIs only do two points to size class 4 or larger units, and only size class 4 or larger units can have ESGs. I'd much rather have the Kzinti player throw ten of these at me (20 points damage potential) than three slug drones (hitting my ESG field for 24 point reduction, killing even a 5-pointer at range 0) followed by seven standard drones (84 points of damage potential). The only Kzinti-Federation role for these would be to target Lyran fighters hiding behind an ESG.

SPP: Hmm. Okay, make the drone a variant of the type-I-MW that, when it reaches the ESG, transports 1 type-VI in a capsule (overcoming objection 1 since it isn't self-transporting, and 3 because the seeker is on a standard type-VI drone). To beat #2, the transporter drone is launched on a ballistic course and uses the ballistically targetted scatter-pack rules (which use F4.5 instead of going inert when DisDev'd). After transportation, the transported capsule around the type-VI immediately breaks open, and the type-VI acquires a target using FD7.37.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 04:43 pm: Edit

Here is my take on the Lyran Fighter situation. It consists of a new tactic and a new pod.

"DRONE JUMPING"

This manuever was developed by the Lyrans as a method of increasing drone kills in ratio to the phaser firepower available. Lyrans did not have access to Mw drones and considered Adds a liability for their fighters because using them reduced the striking power of their fighters. To use Adds phaser pods or type I drones had to be removed.
This maneuver essentially allows a Lyran fighter to "dogfight" drones.It follows these rules.
* The lyran ftr. chooses a group of drones in a hex. A number of drones equal to the shuttle speed (including packs) divided by 4 (round up) can be attacked in this manner per turn.
* dogfight advantage is determined normally with one addition, the number of interfaces a drone can be engaged is 4-speed factor difference if the drone is faster than the fighter.
* Collateral damage; This manuever is risky, forcing a ftr to very close proximity of a drone. Sometimes an explosion of a dying drone may damage the attacking shuttle. Roll 1d6 on a 6 damage has occurred. Resove dmg as follows; 1space drone=1pt, 2space=2pts .5 space=0. Note this amount is doubled if the ftr is using wbp's.
* A pilot can reduce this damage as follows; roll 1d6 add pilot quality modifier. If a 5-6 is the result -1 from the initial damage. The ftr must disengage from the entire "drone jump" if he chooses to reduce damage.
Note the Hydrans, kzinti, Klingons, and Feds never developed this manuever as they had ample drone killing capabilities, and considered it risky and wasteful.

DRONE BREAKER POD

This pod was developed by the lyrans late in the war to help reduce drone wave attacks before they reached the ESG's. It is essentially a compact special sensor with 1 function, breaking lockons.It has the following features:
*1 space pod
* range 6 hexes
* burns out on a 6
* can attack 3 drones per pod per turn.
* 1-3 break lock on, 4-5 no effect, 6 burnout.

Again this pod was considered unneccessary by the Kzinti Klingons, and Federation as they had plenty of anti-drone capability. The Hydrans considered it a minor useful item if used on stg I ftrs, but felt it too expensive to manufactue for an obsolete ftr.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Note the main advantage to "Drone Jumping" is the ftr gets to use the Low power phaser rules for dogfighting. Which increases phaser effieciency vs drones dramatically.

By Will Culbertson (Willhc) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 05:14 pm: Edit

As a Hydran why would I not want to use the above? It seems to add a lot to my anti-drone capability and I don't waste my PH-G which I can then use to maul a Klingon ship with or get rid of even MORE drones!

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 05:37 pm: Edit

The Hydrans would have to lose fusion or hellbores to mount a drone breaker and was unneccessary as they had p-g's. As for Drone jumping, the lyrans needed a way to preserve as much strike pwr as possible and were confronted with the major drone race and therefore many more drones than the Hydrans had to face and they didn't have p-g's.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 05:42 pm: Edit

also in a drone jump you would have to use your p-g and therefore would not have it for the klingon.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Drone jumping? Oh, that was a joke. Ok, very funny.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 05:56 pm: Edit

I haven't been able to keep up with the entire discussion here so I might've missed someone else suggesting this. Here's my two cents.

I think of Lyran fighters as fleet defense fighters (like the U.S. Navy F-14) and armed with disruptors in order to give punch but avoid the ESG/drone problem. So, how do they power them? I figure they developed a special "fighter capacitor" using a variation on their unique ESG capacitor (say around Y168 or Y175). The carrier would power the capacitor before the fighter launches. The capacitor would give the disruptor one (or two?) repeats. It could be in the form of a pod, and so a fighter could carry more than one pod. Only Lyran fighters could have this capacitor (unless they were willing to sell/loan it to the Klingons or Orions).

By Robert Snook (Verdick) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:03 pm: Edit

They would power them exactly the same way other fighters power their heavy weapons: from the shuttle bay freezer.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:10 pm: Edit

well if you don't like the phrase "drone jumping" try "drone busting" or hunting or stalking.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:12 pm: Edit

Steve Ehrbar:

No, sorry. You are still transporting a unit in combat conditions. That is still Andromedan tech.

Not going to happen.

If you can launch drones that way, why not just launch them from the transporter on the ship period.

Answer is no.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:22 pm: Edit

Hugh Bishop:

If a Lyran fighter could "drone jump" anyone's fighter could. If a Lyran could do it, then EVERYONE would do it, whether they had drones or not. It does not fix anything. Fighters are fighters are fighters.

As to your pod. If you cannot see why the Kzintis, Klingons, Feds, Romulans, Tholians, and Hydrans would all use this pod I just do not know what to tell you.

It is, afterall, a POD. Pods can be carried on POD RAILS. Consider the effects on a Klingon drone capability if you had 36 Hydran stingers each carrying this pod (and an EW pod) on a pod rail. 108 chances to turn off Klingon drones per turn with a 50% chance of success on each roll. On average you stop 54 Klingon drones. Assuming three F5s, three D5s, three D7s, a C8, a D6S, and a D6D, the Klingons would be able to launch only 29 drones a turn without scatterpacks.

It should be quite plain why the Hydrans would use such a pod.

And obvious why anyone else would.

If you issue this pod you may as well declare drones obsolete.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:33 pm: Edit

perhaps instead of a pod the lyrans had a drone breaker capability built into their 2 seat EW fighters, or selected fighter types built under license. This would remove the pod problem, limit its availability to lyrans and limit how many of them the lyrans had.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:01 pm: Edit

I kinda liked my Disruption Generator idea, but it seems to have gotten lost with the gag proposals.

Anyone think it was too much or too little?

I think it's too in effective in ship to ship for ships to use, but I can see Anti-Fighter Lyran PFs using it quite well.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:37 pm: Edit

I propose that all Lyran fighters produce one of two effects upon launching.
1) Any active ESG fields from the ship launching the fighters automatically envelope the fighter (regardless of the radius). Any left over points of the ESG is lost.
2) If there are no active ESGs from the ship launching the fighters, the following ESG activity occures.
a) A powered ESG automatically pops up (ignoring the 4 impulse delay and ignoring ESG usage limits in every respect), drawing from available batteries to maximize the ESG field strength. Once all launched fighters in the launching hex are destroyed, the remaining power (and sphere) is lost.
b) If there are no powered ESGs, then battery power to its maximum capacity is drawn, powering the ESG, then refer to step (a)
c) If there are no powered ESGs or power in batteries or insufficient batteries to maximize the ESG output, a subspace tether is created, linking the ESG to subspace whereas power is transferred to the ESG (up to 5 points). This is instanteous. Once the ESG is powered, the tether vanishes. Refer to step (a)
d) If all ESGs are destroyed, one is instantly repaired for the brief moments, allowing only enough time to do steps (b) or (c) (prioritizing in that order). Then refer to step (a) then destroy the ESG.
e) If there never were any ESGs, then any random box on the ship is automically converted into a destroyed ESG then refer to (d).

This solves the Lyran fighter problem.

:-)

By John Pepper (Akula) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:42 pm: Edit

To me the solution to this problem would be to give the Lyrans a new type drone, the exploding ESG, While Esg were to powerful to use on a fighter,drone or pf, The Lyrans did succeed in building a 2 space drone, that could be targeted on a fighter or hex, when the drone reached the same hex as the target or the designated hex. It would for a brief instant(far less then a impulse), project a 6 point ESG field in the same hex, damaging any fighter or shuttle in the hex.(the field would be to weak for to damage a ship).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:47 pm: Edit

OK. It really looks like every one wants something cool and original for the Lyrans. Something that could not be copied. The only thing the Lyrans have that is their own and has not been copied is the ESG. So it has to be some kind of technology based on that area. Now, we all agree that fighters can't be a Lyran design. So, no new fighters. Most people are looking towards drones. Can't put an ESG on a drone, but how could the knowledge gained by ESGs bennifit drones. Hmmm. This is what I came up with.

An ESG is a device that carries energy out in a controlled field. So, I propose that there be a module for a drone that does the following, using this field effect.

Upon reaching it's target or target hex the drone explodes. Instead of just damaging its target the E-module carries the explosion energy out to fill the entire hex. Now wait. Hear me out. This energy is devided by the number of units in the hex. It's a one impulse, range zero, ESG that uses the war head exposion for energy. So, a type one drone has one E-module and one explosive module. It explodes in a hex with three Hydran fighters. One half space explosive module does six damage. So, each of the three fighters takes two damage points.

If there were 12 fighters in the hex, then six would each take one. One point would be the minimum damage. Two or more drones with e-modules would cancel each other out and do no damage. They would not damage other drones that impact in that hex on that impulse.

Type four drones would carry two e-modules and two explosive modules. I.E one e-module per half space explosive module. In addition a type four drone could carry a combination of modules as long as each e-module was paired with a half space explosive module.

The Feds, Kzinti, Hydrans, and Klingons can't copy it because it is based on a propriatary technology. It is not a super weapon because you can only have one hit at a time. It's utillity and moral slashing ability is obvious. (It would force the Hydrans (or any one) to really pay attention to that drone swarm.)

Well, there is my go at it.

Am I crazy?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:31 pm: Edit

I should note that this would damage friendly units as well. Mine interaction would be rare but be the same a Mines/ESGs. Interaction with other ESGs would be the same too but not usualy a concern because a ship ESG would likely destroy the drone first. Hellbore interaction would be as per ESG but would never happen because there would never be a time to target the explosion. It would reviel a cloaked ship and as such might be too powerful in that regard.

An interesting interaction with Andro PAs could be worked out. Not sure what that would be though.

By John Pepper (Akula) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Loren I like your idea that essentially what I proposed above.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:40 pm: Edit

The Lyrans also have trimarian conversions, an all but BCH long before anyone else, and the capability in campaign terms to make stupid numbers of BC/DN hulls. And PFs galore. Oh, and those aforementioned ESG problems.

I guess I'm with Petrick on this, and really don't see the big deal.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:51 pm: Edit

Well.....

I think one of the problems with any new toys for Lyran fighters is going to be the question of "Why can't my cap ship use it, too?" If you can mount an ESG capable drone on a fighter, why not use them on the ship? ESG's are great weapons, but imagine how much better they could be offensively if you could launch them via a drone. This has to be addressed, just like the ESG Lance idea did. I'm not saying I necessarily don't like the ESG drone idea, it's just that I can see this being a problem down the road.