Archive through August 14, 2002
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module J3: Back in the Cockpit:
Archive through August 14, 2002
I don't see why the Lyrans NEED a fighter weapon all their own. The GOrns are in an even worse situation with their fighters (they have fewer, inferior fighters, all from the Federation), yet tehy aren't getting any new fighter gizmo.
Yes, the drones have an effect thier own ESG's, but you'd have to overcome fleet problems anyways, what's a few more drones to deal with? Just lead the fighters out in fron of the ships, launch the drones, cycle the ESG's so that the fighters can land and reload, cycle the ESG's again so that the fighters can launch and get clear of the ESG's before they come back up.
The ESG is very difficuly to employ with multiple friendly units close by, but that is already well established. There is no need to give the Lyrans something "better" simply because their fighter doctrine doesn't jive completely with their ship doctrine.
As far as e-module detonation, must it have a target or a target hex? If it targets a hex can it be distracted by a wild weasel? perhaps detonation rules along the lines of scatter-pack release rules should be used. If it can be targeted at a hex it would have to be ballistically targeted and according to the rules can,t acquire a target once it gets there unless it is a Type III. Perhaps the E-module has a detonation timer that can either be set prior to launch or triggered by the guiding ship at some point in its flight.
Loren Knight:
I did not see any reason to say anything about it on three counts:
First, it is STILL A DRONE and I thought the entire argument on the part of the "Lyran Technology Only" types was to do away with drones completely.
Second, it was still so clearly inferior to a drone in that it cannot cripple a single Stinger fighter, and might not destroy a drone if it has some armor on it.
Third, weapons able to attack multiple units in a hex are on the auto-reject list. If SVC grants you an exclusion to the auto-reject list, then I would have to seriously consider the system.
Hugh Bishop:
Not what the rule said. You target the weapon carrying the E-Module at one drone or fighter in a hex, and hope that when the E-Module equipped drone reaches the hex, that there is still something more than one thing in the hex with the target [why you would hope this, I do not know, since it turns the weapon from a sure kill on an unarmored type-IV drone or smaller to maybe doing only a point of damage on six different drones (or other units) in the hex, requiring all of them to be labbed or targeted with extra weapons because you do not know if that is six unarmored type-Is or six Armored type-IVs the damage was scored on].
True the module would have to be more powerful or have a max target amount or some sort of target priority system.
The primary use of the E-module as I saw it would be as a suplementary weapon. Usualy sent in as part of a drone wave. I would use it to whittle away at flights of fighters. Consider how it might make you site up to see your entire flight of three fighters each take two damage suddenly. Sure they can take it but now their a bit easier to kill when the main attack come in. Or how about if it happens again. Suddenly a p1 might cripple you.
Of course, it would be a restricted item, but the shock effect would be interesting at least.
Lyran Admiral to flight six leader: "Diamond six, tenderize those Stingers for the buffet! 015 by 90"
Diamond six leader:"Yezz Admiral, lauching now"
Hydran flight leader Gurhezzitz:"Watch out Hezz, you've got one."
Hezz:"I'm out of chaff! I'm...."
Flight leader Gurhezzitz:"What!! I'm hit. Minor damage. What the Hillenduzba whuz that!" A chill slithered its way down Gurhezzitz's clenched tenicals. 
Ultimatly, playtesting is the true test. What looks good on paper....
If nothing else, the E module would be a great way to control the movement of enemy fighters. It would be interesting to see them played out.
SVC and SPP: Thank you for responding so soon. I know you guys are busy.
SPP: I agree with you about drone usage. The whole get rid of Lyran drones thing would be a mistake in my oppinion.
RS: They did get the plasma K.
SVC: Yes, they got the plasma K, but they weren't asking for a special weapon that only they have. Besides, whatever the Klingons get out of J2, I would imagine the Lyrans get too.
Well, while my previous attempt at humor fizzled (appropriately), I do have a serious side of me.
Lyrans produced ESGs long ago.
They borrowed/bought fighters from the klingons.
They had to have known that reckless use of one or the other could result in a dead pilot via friendly fire (or sphere in this case).
To arbitrarily develop something to reduce the risk between friendly fighter and ESG sphere is a silly idea. If the Lyrans want to play with fighters and ESGs at the same time, then they should do so at their own risk. While necessity is the mother of all inventions, rules shouldn't be made to ease tactical play.
Someone pointed out long ago (in response to someone else) that if Lyran fighters had the ability to slip through friendly ESGs, don't for a second think that the Kzinti or the Hydrans would develope something like that. In fact, I would even harbor a guess that if the Lyrans learned of a way to do that, they may actually suppress that technology in fear of it being copied, thus nullifying their ESGs entirely in the long term.
Additionally, Lyrans have an ESG. They don't need another ray gun or drone-bustin' special sensor pod, even if its on a fighter, especially since fighters (except for a short period) became less a necessity for the Lyrans than any other race (except the gorns).
I guess I'm more or less mirroring Snook's (and others') latest post. Just using different words.
The is posted with all due respect to all posters here who support a new Lyran fighter toy.
Okay, would this make any difference to the Hydran reach problem.
The Lyrans developed a POD that could be hung on a type one drone rail.
Because it was larger than a regular Warp Booster Pack, it could provide a warp booster pack's speed increase but wouldn't cause the double damage penalty until activated for the first time and it could be dropped in-flight. A fighter can carry this POD and a WBP but can not use them concurrently.
Now. Does the added speed of the Lyran fighter solve any problems ( or have I just made the F-14 the fastest fighter in the game ) with reguard to Hydran reach!?!
SVC and Joe Butler:
Would it be possible to get the Fighter Drone Rail Symbols added to the BBS characters?
Lyran Weapon Notes:
Fighter Pods:
Are out because every one is going to want one and there is no reason, why the other races couldn't have one(unless it is based on a special lyran only system AKA the ESG).
Lyran Disruptors:
Why should they get more then the Klingons(That is there primary weapon)?
The Weapon can't be to expensive as the lyrans are not a PRIMARY FIGHTER using race, as opposed to the Kzin or the Feds.
A E-mod has several advantages it can break up fighter squads, it can damage several fighers at once, and it can improve the lyran pf.
The E-Modual PF Rack
You might ask how the E-Modual will help the PF, the answer is the e-mod rack. The E-Mod system is fited in a heavly modified 2-space drone, while it certanly could be held on a fighter. Its unusual shape prevented it from being put in a drone rack, and the lyrans certainly didn't like drones anyways. However, PFs didn't have a ESG, and where vulnerable to fighter and drone attacks. As a result the Lyran Commanders invented a rack that could hold these Moduals, and added it in very limited numbers to PF's. Each rack could hold 4 E-Mods(no reloads). At most 1 or 2 pf's in a squad would mount the rack.
Try it this way.
First, prove that the Lyrans aren't getting by just peachy keen with what they have.
Then develop a new weapon that would give them a different tactical choice, but would not be seriously better than drones.
The new weapon need not be unique to the Lyrans; it could be something everyone else has and everyone else uses, but that everyone else prefers to use drones and the Lyrans (due to the ESG) have more reason to use this weapon.
Frankly, beyond the phaser pod I mentioned zillions of messages ago, I'm not sure that the Lyrans need anything.
Loren Knight:
Hydran fighters do not often let drone enter their hex. If out of chaff (and chaff would be used well before the drone entered their hex) they would look at the situation. If the drone is going to enter the hex on the next impulse, they will look at what launched it. If it came off of a fighter rail, they will assume a type-I drone (if it will move the next impulse), and hit it with two phaser-G shots (two phaser-3s). Problem goes away. If it will NOT move on the next impulse, they will hit it with one phaser-G shot, and if they score four points of damage, problem goes away. If not, they fire a second phaser-G shot . . . problem goes away. In some rare situations the problem does not go away because the drone was armored, but that would make it a type-I slug drone and who cares? Or the drone is moving so slow from the external armor that the Hydrans do not have to avoid it. So if it is from a type-I launch rail, no problem, and it is NOT going to enter the hex of the Stingers.
So the key is timing the drones to reach the Stingers under conditions that they will have to use up some of their firepower to kill the drones, and NOT have that firepower to kill the ship I am protecting. Getting a drone hit on a Stinger from a Z-V is a sign that the Hydrans are doing something very wrong more than anything else. (Like forgot to check the Impulse Chart and did not realize that both they and the drone moved on on an impulse, and they had to move straight . . . rarely happens but I have seen it).
Now, Starfish drones are another matter entirely, but spread the ADD rounds out (all three cannot hit the same target), are not reliable (roll as ADDs to hit, and then roll for damage), and cannot be launched from a fighter that does not have Special Rails (FD8.33) and (FD15.251). They can shoot from three hexes range (which is their best range) and can potentially do a lot more damage than a mere phaser-3 Swordfish drone. But SOMETIMES it can be worthwhile to launch a flock of Swordfish phaser-3s at one single (or two or three depending on circumstances and how many you have) Hydran fighter, disabling it at the same time the Hydrans decide to start shooting at the drones. But you generally need to have a few targets that have already dropped their chaff. And if the targets are "moving slow," i.e., less than speed 15 (a sign that COULD mean that they are carrying pods), they might have a Chaff Pod aboard (check their EW usage, maybe they are carrying one or two EW pods, which might mean that is the only pod they are carrying). But remember that they MIGHT be saving that 15th point of movement just to do Erratic Maneuvers, or for a surprise mid-turn speed change.
Michael John Campbell:
Existing rules provide that a pod is the size of a drone for all practical purposes. Warp booster packs are larger than pods. See, for example, Annex #7K for the number of cargo points each requires (pod = 1 space, booster pack = 4 spaces). If such a speed pod existed, it would be used by everyone, and effectively eliminate the booster packs since it is so much smaller and easier to transport.
Okay...one thing that could be helpful is to have a list of what we can't have and then see what we can do.
• It can't be a fighter ESG.
• It can't be a home brew fighter...or maybe it can.
• It can't be a native Lyran weapon...or maybe it can.
• It should be able to pass through an ESG feild...but maybe it shouldn't. And the fighter mustn't.
• It can't use up too much of the carrier's power to arm.
• It can't be a techno-slosh or we'll winde up with all the same problems over again.
• It has to be paitently superior to the Hydran Stinger-II.
• Apparently drones are too hard to organise in fleet ESG interactions.
• It has to be a single space fighter.
SVC & SPP:
Did I miss anything out.
Personally I think there are only about 4 things that fit the bill, mentioned so far. And of those DRONES is comming about 2nd and the front runner seems to be washed out by the Non-native aspect.
I can't argue with that. Hmmm. Thinking.
Beep bloop da dit.
Darn, it was a neat idea. So the Lyran Admiralty says to the Lyran Scientist "Why are you waisting money on that when we already have Starfish drones! Quit waisting my time and figure out a way to get more Starfish, fool!"
Live and learn! I guess the E-module got killed by a Starfish. @#$%&*!
Sorry John if it seems like I'm caving in too quickly, but the Starfish module would do a good job of what I was going for, and it already exists.
Why the Lyrans need something special and unique:
1. Racial Flavor
2. The Lyrans did contiune to use fighters after the PF, so there must be some way they kept there fighters competive with the Hyrans and Kzin.
3. The Lyran PF is not one of my favorites because it has the weapons of the Klingons Pf without the anti-fighter drone support, therefore to counter this problem there fighters should be pretty competive.
4.Lyrans firepower in fleet and fighter battles is weak aginst opponests because there firing anti-ship weapons at drones.
5. Why not give the lyrans something weaker then the drone that complements existing technology, and improves there firepower.
Why should the lyrans get a lot of starfish drone, they use a lot of ph-2's so these are going to be harder for them to build. If you can't build a ph-1 how are you going to build a miniture ph-2.
No, the Starfish blosoms into three ADDs.
The Swordfish is the phaser unit.
Loren Knight:
Slight error.
You forget that the Starfish is not available to any Klingon/Lyran fighter until Y180. There is no Klingon/Lyran fighter with "Special Rails" prior to that date.
Seriously, part of the problem seems to be that we people are proposing things for the game with no concept of fighter operations. Loren (I am not picking on you, but you are apparently the most recent example) is either unaware of starfish modules, or was unaware of when they are available. My comments on them did not denote date. I have several times addressed the fact that the Z-V is not a good adaptation to the job because of its limited drone loadout (only two type-I rails), but it is all I have until Y177 (and I do not get it until Y173, being stuck with measely Z-2s prior to that point, also with the limit of only two type-I rails).
Sure, a full blown Z-YC squadron is a nightmare for a Hydran Stinger unit (up to 22 special rails that might be holding Starfish or Multi-warhead modules, and up to an additional 44 type-I warheads, some number of which might be phaser types, and of course the two type-VIs on the Z-YE). But in Y171? All I can ask of my Z-2s is that they keep the Hydran Stingers from using their full firepower on my ships until we have eliminated them. Then I can have my remaining Z-2s launch some offensive drones in support of my operations. But if I want to use multi-warheads on the Stingers prior to Y180, they have to come from my ships or PFs (if I were a Klingon rather than a Lyran).
But obviously Y168 to Y180 is not a very good time for Klingon/Lyran fighters versus Stingers, and the best use is defense until the Stingers are worn away.
And please understand, though it is true that I didn't see a big Lyran Fighter problem, I fell in love with the E-module idea quickly. It seemed to solve a lot of problems but if there is a unit that does effectively the same thing (perhaps more effectivly) then adding the E-module to an already huge set of rules seems pointless.
Truely, I'm disappointed.