Archive through August 15, 2002
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module J3: Back in the Cockpit:
Archive through August 15, 2002
So it's direct fire, sort of like a one-shot rail gun, then? Is there a size-class target limitation (i.e., SC4 or larger?)
Dentist again SVC?
SVC,
As this would effectively make heavy weapons fighters obsolete, I don't think its as good for the game.
Compared to a HW fighter its no power, similar damage, and mountable on all fighters. Yes, photon and disruptor fighters could enguage at somewhat greater range but their slow speed makes that less relevant. Either they will get in range (at which case most fighters should be able to hit 5 on said target) or they wouldn't (at which case the ASM is just as ineffective).
In all I like the phaser pod a lot better.
I would leave the ASM as 2d6 damage. Same hit table (and range) as an antidrone but against size class 5 or larger targets only, launch counts against limits on drone launches, maximum one launch in any 8 impulse period.
I would not give up my A10 or A20 to have this, I would not take a Klingon assult fighter in the first place, but if I wanted them I would not get rid of them for this.
But it does provide an interesting arms mix. Comparable to letting plasma fighter's bolt type D's which many were in favor of.
Even with SVC's longer range it is still not much better than the proposed bolted D-plasma fighter.
SPP:
In response to your response to Robert Snook (8/15 @ 2:50 PM):
Robert Snook is one of the members of Battlegroup Tucson, which has the fortunate benefit of having Jim Curtis, the designer of the Lyrans, amongst us. Jim's long-standing position (and I have seen his original hand-drawings and written comments to confirm) has been that he always envisioned the Lyrans as a "ramming race." In fact, his original submissions did not even have disruptors.
I know that Robert has been part of these discussions (including with me) in the past, and, although the final product that became the Lyrans use the ESG in a somewhat different (or - more accurately - expanded) way, the general belief here has always been that Lyrans are "rammers."
So, if one accepts Curtis' original intent in design, it would generally be more accurate to say that the defensive functions of the ESG system is really the "incidental side effect," not ramming.
Hmmm...not that any of this really matters now anyway...
Mark K: What is the difference between a fighter trying to ram your ship with an Energy Lance/Rake and a ship trying to ram your ship with its ESG? Both are trying to stuff their weapon down your throat and both can be thwarted before achieving it. Fighters are just more fragile, but in greater numbers.
Maybe to make the ASM a little less attractive compared to a heavy weapon, make it so the launching fighter can't of turned in the previous 8 (maybe 4?) impulses. Side slips would still be ok. The idea being that the fighter has to 'line up' the target for the strike since the hypervelocity missile is difficult to hit with (too fast for effective guidance; it's not seeking, but slower than direct fire energy weapons; the target may move out of the way before it impacts).
This ASM idea will drastically improve drone-carrying ships. It's the equivalent of the change given to plasma ships when bolts were created. However, plasma ships needed that (plasma was their only heavy weapon). Droners do not - they still have disruptors or photons.
If an ASM is going to be created, can't it just be a one-space ADD that does 1d6 damage to ships but have the same range? It could be fired out of ADD launchers, providing some extra firepower at the cost of losing defensive capabilities.
SVC,
Let us assume that you have a standard squadron of 11 class III fighters and 1 EWF. The 11 standard fighters are each armed with 2 ASMs. Let us assume that, by a combination of maneuver, EW, and careful use of speed changes and WBP, the fighter group achieves range 5. We will also assume that only 8 of the 11 fighters achieved that range (I note here specifically that, beyond range 5, P1 damage drops off significantly).
Each of the 8 remaining fighters fire (launch?) 2 ASMs at a SC4 or larger target. Of the 16 ASMs fired, an average (based on your defined 4-5 range bracket using the range 3 bracket from the ADD to-hit chart), 10.666 will hit. For simplicity, we'll give the ship the benefit of the doubt, and just say 10 hit. Keep in mind that the firing of the ASM WILL NOT BE AFFECTED BY EW (except, possibly, the EM of the fighters, if in fact they maintain EM), and cannot be stopped by weapons counter-fire or counter-launch, or by tractor beams.
2d6 of course averages 7 points. The fighter group just scored 70 damage on facing shield of the target.
In other words, they just killed a frigate, crippled a destroyer or light cruiser, seriously damaged a heavy cruiser or battlecruiser, damaged a dreadnought, or seriously annoyed a battleship.
Is this an intended/desired effect of this proposed weapon system?
Robert,
You hit the nail on the head. A ship can take the damage on the way in to "stuff their weapon down your throat". Fighters can't. From the description you are making a fighter that required Hydran tactics without having Hydran numbers (or the long range firepower stingers can bring to bear).
More importantly you are trying to get a unit who's maximum speed is 15 or less (before WPBs) to get into the same hex as a ship. This is the same probelm slow and medium drones have. Downside for the fighters is they cost you BVP to purchase and you have less of them than you would have drones.
Like the ESG, it could be used for damaging drones as well, defending the ship from waves of them.
I'm not implying Hydran tactics, I'm implying Lyran tactics, that of trying to get into the effective range of the ESG, taking damage along the way. A ship MIGHT be able to take its ESG all the way to ramming distance against a ship determined not to be hit. The ESG could be shot off the ship, hit by a hit-and-run raid, held at tractor length, ran away from until the ESG dissipates, etc.. And while you say that a fighter can't take the damage like a ship can, that is true, a fighter can't. A squadron of fighters can take the damage and still be viable. That is true of any race's fighters.
As for the slow speed issue, Hydrans have the same problem before WBP come around, so look at how the Hydrans manage to get decent hits with their weapons and get more agressive. I know that they do not have to close to range zero, that is why you have to get more agressive.
The Energy Lance/Rack would be more inline with the Lyran philosophy of attack, especially moreso than drones. As I suggested it to be an SSJ item only, not a mainstream SFB universe item, it would not affect the timeline or F&E.
Steve Cole wrote:
Quote:If we could take a break from the Lyrans, I would propose a new weapon, the ANTI-SHIP MISSILE (ASM).
This is, basically, a great big anti-drone. Figure to take the ADD table and make range 2 be 2-3 and range 3 be 4-5, double the damage points, it cannot hit a fighter but it would do its nominal damage to a ship. Could be a keen new fighter weapon, carried on the rails that hold drones or D-torps.
There is already a version of the ADD that does limited damage to ships. It's called the Short-Ranged Cannon, and was developed by the Federal Republic of Aurora in the Omega sector (a nation of displaced alpha quadrant people, mostly Federation, but some Klingon, Lyran and Orion).
It does 1 point of damage to ships, varying amounts to small units based on range and size class. It would make a great fighter weapon.
I guess an enlarged version, that does more damage to ships but can't hit smaller units, would also be cool.
re: ASM. I could perhaps see something that does d6 vs PFs and 1-2 vs ships, but, IMO, 2d6 vs ships is far too much.
SVC,
Let's see if I have this properly envisioned.
ASM
Does 2D6 damage.
To hit: 1:1-2, 2-3:1-3, 4-5:1-4.
Can't hit at range 0 or 6+.
Can only hit SC 5+ targets. (No fighters or drones.)
Can be used by any weapons system that can use a Type-I drone or Type-D torpedo.
Would they be immune to EW like ADDs? (E5.15)
What would their YIS be? (Same as ADDs?)
As a fighter only weapon, I don't they would be too unbalancing, as a maximum range of 5 hexes makes them get pretty close to use. They would give an interesting (if inferior) option to Lyrans and Feds who don't want to always use drones.
Putting these in racks, however, is something I would be concerned about. While it is true they need to get to five hexes, they are a 360 degree, zero-energy weapon that does decent damage every turn. That Kzinti CS with four racks and only two disruptors starts looking a little scarier all of a sudden!
SVC,
I like the ASM idea, but have a humble suggestion. I don't know if anyone ever played the FASA game Centurion, but it had an interesting take on the interaction of kinetic rounds (which, from what I gather, is what the ASM essentially is...apologies if I'm wrong, Steve) and shields.
Against shields, a kinetic round is signifigantly "slowed", and does less damage...say, 1D6/2. Only against unshielded targets would it do the normal 2D6, because there is no shield to interfere with the speed of the round as it strikes the target. This would alleviate some of Richard Sherman's concerns, in that the ASM couldn't be used to obliterate a target's shields. Once the shields were down, it would certianly be a serious threat, but it does limit it's effectiveness somewhat. Does this sound like a plausible idea?
Mike Raper:
Well, you have to deal with a gray area. What is a shield?
You launch Richard Sherman's 70 points of damage at my ship on a given impulse. My shield was intact, resolution is as you give.
You launch Richard Sherman's 70 points of damage at my ship on a given impulse. My shield had only one box remaining on it.
You launch Richard Sherman's 70 points of damage at my ship on a given impulse. My shield setting was only at minimal (five boxes) level.
You launch Richard Sherman's 70 points of damage at my ship on a given impulse. My shield was down from prior damage, but I raise a point of shields through the use of reserve power.
Obviously in some of the cases you could destroy the shield with one shot on one impulse and then pound the ship on subsequent impulses. But when you just use the word "shield", you get into that gray area.
And you also have to cover that "well, the shield was hit by weapon X (phaser, disruptor, photon, etc.) on the same impulse, which is resolved first?" If the ADM is, I get the reduction in damage, if the ADM is after the other weapons down the shield, I get the larger damage. And do not forget you have to allow for the hellbore and PPD interactions, i.e., even if the ADM hit before the photon, does it hit before, after, or on the same step as the enveloping hellbore and how is tha resolved if it is at the same time?
Oh, and by the way, can you just picture how the Andromedans are going to take this if you do not define their active PA panels as "shields" for this purpose?
I like what Mark Kuyper said about making it a ADD for ships. Same size with 1d6 damage. I would add that that round could be used on fighters and drones but at a +2 penalty, i.e. very unlikely to hit but not impossible.
One the other hand the original idea would have you replacing other weapons with something very short ranged and has a potential to do little damage so it wouldn't upset the game much. If you're lucky, however, you'll bop somebody but good.
SPP,
Well, it's pretty simple. Once the shield is down, regardless of how many points it has, it's down. If you've got one point, the first ASM to hit it will do 1D6/2...say 2 points. One point hits the shield, and one point goes through. ONLY when the shield is down would you get full damage. As for the Andros, no...PA's don't work that way, so they'll unfortunately have to suck it up. Unfair, perhaps, but tough.
Mike Raper:
Only a partial answer. You did not answer the whole question.
Are ASMs to be resolved BEFORE other fire? And if so before what level of fire? Just before other direct-fire and after hellbore and PPD fire, or before the first hellbore option
Are ASMs to be resolved AFTER all other fire? And if so, is that after only regular direct-fire or after the second hellbore option?
If they are resolved at the same time as other direct-fire, how is this done? Each ASM has a random damage output, and if the shield was there when ASMs and the other weapons hit at the same time . . . well what procedure are you going to use?
The rule you are trying to create is very vague, give it some more thought and consider how volleys are actually resolved.
Further, from an Andromedan standpoint, the "hyper speed" of the round clearly converts the weapon into directed-energy on "impact" and thus the PAs can asbsorb it. Afterall, the panels CAN absorb damage from collisions with asteroids, and this is not any different.
Loren,
As the song says "Wasn't me..."
Mike,
weapons damage isn't handled that way. You handle one volley at a time, so you'd have to either reduce all ASMs because the volley they are in hit a shield. Remember, HBs are resolved as a seperate volley regardless of how many hit.
Either that or I've been using them wrong and they just got nastier... 
The example I used was for one ASM hitting alone; no other weapon in play. I did that just to illustrate how it would be effected by a shield.
As for resolution, I'd have to think about when it would be resolved, but my initial reaction would be AFTER other fire, but before the second HB. I'd have to play it out.
About Andros...I didn't say PA's wouldn't absorb the damage. I just say that PA's won't slow the round in the same way a shield would, so the PA gets the full 2D6.
SPP> Wouldn't the energy howtizer/shield interaction rule covewr the necessary cases?
Lets compare the ASM to other weapons. Due to a lack of time, I'll just do range 5. I note that this is where the ASM is at its best. All of these are average damage.
| weapon | no shift | +1 shift | +2 shift |
| ASM: | 4.67 | 4.67 | 4.67 |
| Ph-1: | 3.5 | 2.67 | 2 |
| Ph-2: | 1.16 | 0.67 | 0.33 |
| Disruptor: | 2 | 1.5 | 1 |
| Disruptor (OL w/ UIM): | 5 | 4 | 3 |
| Photon*: | 4 | 2.67 | 1.33 |
| Photon (max OL)* | 4 | 2.67 | 1.33 |
| Pl-D (bolt): | 3.33 | 2.5 | 1.67 |
| Pl-F (bolt)**: | 2.22 | 1.67 | 1.11 |
*overloaded photon is divided by 2 to account for 2 turn arming cycle (the standard is not since it represents a fighter shot).
**the plasma F bolt is divided by 3 to account for the 3 turn arming cycle.
As can be seen, the ASM is better than almost all weapons, including heavy weapons. It is especially good in a heavy EW situation (and since fighters have a hard time with EW, this makes it particularly valueable to them).
What is even more scary is that drone racks (and ADD racks) have 360 fields of fire. Plasma-D racks "only" have 180 degree arcs.
This makes the A10 obsolete. An F18 now has more direct firepower (and the flexibility of retaining drones if the battle is at range). Not to mention what an F14/F15 looks like.
I'd guess it represents a 20% increase in the BPV of Kzinti ships. Now they don't have to reach range 0/1 for anchors. They can do an effective anchor shot at range 5. Just get to range 5 and fire 4 ASM, plus any phasers and disruptors.
Reasons I don't like the ASM:-
• It costs no power to arm but is far more successful at inflicting it's damage than a Type I drone.
• It inflicts almost as much damage as type I drone but can not be offset with phaser fire.
• It can't damage fighters. Dust clouds can damage fighters but these things can't. And it can't damage drones.
• Its R6 range limit doesn't help against Hydran R8 Stinger-II sniping.
• As an ADD it still suffers from the complete nuetralisation of its damage by any ESG it might fire through, with-out any degradation of the ESG feild ( The Lyrans should consider selling these to their enemies...that'll help the Lyrans WIN the war ).
• It's a hellova lot like my Super-ADD...maybe if my super-ADD did 1 point of damage to ships, it could be a workable weapon.
• It'll be used by every drone using race ( and plasma apparently ) as the only weapon of choice.
• It'll make fighters the only weapon of choice for any race that can get ASMs.
• I think you're pulling someone's leg with this ( having invented the Super-ADD ) unt I think said leg might be mine.
You guys are kidding me, right??
A zero-energy, EW-immune, every-turn weapon that does more damage than a phaser-1 at range 5?
This is sick, evil, horribly twisted, and broken.
I'll take ten. No, wait...make that a dozen.