Archive through August 20, 2002
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module J3: Back in the Cockpit:
Archive through August 20, 2002
Since A-racks can launch the ASM.
Consider this.
A Kzinti BC center-lines a Vessel at R5.
| Weapon | Calc' | Damage |
| Disruptors | 4/6 x 4 x 6 | 16 points |
| Ph-1s | 4 x 3.5 | 14 points |
| 2 Brack + 2 C racks | 4 x 4/6 x 7 | 18.666 |
| Total | | 48.666 |
And it still has the ability to launch 2 Type IV A drones to effect its escape.
Admittedly there's about 4 Ph-1s more the enemy will direct at the Kzinti, but it's a mssive boost to the Kzinti Firepower.
It's a nasty weapon for ships to use.
MJC,
How about the F5K VS F5D.
I am really against allowing ASMs into racks. It means small drone armed craft become much more lethal.
Even the E-4 can surprise you.
Mike R. : THe plasma races get them too. It can go in a D-rack.
Well, there is a good chance that we could be getting a whole new game without having to learn all the rules over. Old ships become new ships and little ships can have a surprise up their sleeves. There will also be a whole new batch of term papers there to write. 
Think of how the Orions might employ such a weapon. Or the deterent to the Orions if the is a posibility of such a weapon in a convoy.
One things for sure, I'm going to use my Photon dice for these when I roll for damage!!
I was going to say the ASM might shorten the games but then that depends. It might make them longer because of the tendancy to stay out of R5.
The problem with that, Loren, is that plasma-D racks, outside of carrier escorts, are in very limited service (basically just on heavier command hulls and DNs). Unlike drones, which range from one or two per-ship (refitted Feds and Klinks) to four standrad (Kzinti).
Loren,
Yeah, I know. I just was responding because there seemed to be some belief that it was a Lyran weapon. But Alex is right...you won't see many of these on plasma races hulls.
True, true.
G1D's, mmmmm.
They sort of are a Lyran weapon even if everyone can use them.
The Lyran gets an inbuilt immunity to it through raising an ESG ( 1 R3 ESG arround your entire fleet is enough).
So when you fight a Lyran Fleet:- He'll have the ASM but you wont.
Hmmmmmmmm...D7Ds shelling out 2d6 DF damage from each rack + Ph-1s + UIM Disruptors and I don't have to pay power for the DF drones and I only use 1 drone space in my B-racks...look out I won't be reloading for a long time.
Ok, set up your tradgey scenarios, play them 3-5 times with SVC's rules, submit playtests and state where the problems really occured in play and recommend fixes. We are talking about abstract fleets in every battle. "A carrier vs a fleet without fighters". Overly generic and doesn't illustrate the problem. Test this with a Fed CV group vs specific Romulan ships of equiv BPV, state the ships being used by the roms (feel free to make it slant towards the unbalancing aspect of the ASM) and tell us how it didn't work.
As soon as my captain's game tournament ends, I'm planning on running the carrier campaign again (I do love it so) and this time I'll throw ASMs in. Was thinking of fed vs klingon. Should show how well the ASM works or doesn't work.
SVC, two questions regarding ASMs:
(1) Does an ASM reduce the strength of an ESG on impacting it (and if so, by what amount)?
(2) Does the ASM require the use of a Seeking Weapon control channel on the impulse it is fired?
A.C.C.:
At a Guess...
No & no.
It opperates as a RaLADD.
1) As an ADD like weapon, does the ASM auto-kill drones?
REPLY: cannot be fired at drones.
2) Can the ASM be launched from a G-rack?
REPLY: why not?
2.1) If so at what rate of Fire ( one per impulse or 1 per turn )?
REPLY: 1 per turn.
2B) Can the ASM be launched from an A-rack?
REPLY: why not?
3) Some races only have Ph-2s ( Hydrans and Klingons ) whilst most have Ph-1s, what are you going to do about that
fact that Ph-2s can't effectively engage with the fighters before the fighter release their ASM but that Ph-1s do have
the ability "to me too fire" the fighters before the weapons are lost?
REPLY: Irrelevant. There are dynamics in the game because different races have different weapons.
4) Why does everybody but the Hydrans get this Energy Free weapon that far outclasses fussion beams?
REPLY: Tholians, Andros.
Will the Hyrans
CVs and AxCVs get Power Refits?
REPLY: Not relevant to this discussion.
5) If a 1 point ESG can stop an ASM, is your intention to make the ASM a Lyran weapon through the fact that every race
that has the chance of opposing a Lyran WARSHIP FLEET, will simply not carry the ASM as they are useless?
REPLY: Being snippy gets your question ignored.
6) How does the R5 ASM counter the fact that Hyran R8 Sniping, can destroy a Lyran Squadron "on the double"?
REPLY: Irrelevant. It doesn't counter displacement devices or space dragons either.
7) Are you sure that all the "Fighters Follow their ships into battle tactics" should be thrown out the window?
REPLY: Being snippy gets your question ignored.
Mike West question on ADD: You'll have to ask Petrick.
High Energy ADD: Worth a look in its own right, but doesn't make the ASM less desireable.
Jeremy: Check with Petrick. It was something in CL24 about the Mantor battle.
MJC: Actually, it's not relevant.
You people are all nuts...
Tell you the truth: I don't really care either way about the ASM. I don't use fighters much, because the best fighters use drones, and I am real bad about knocking a stack of drones over... so if anything, a direct-fire weapon that replaces drones might make me use fighters more often.
(1) Does an ASM reduce the strength of an ESG on impacting it (and if so, by what amount)?
REPLY: Let me think about this one. My tendency is to treat it as a drone hitting an ESG which would destroy the ASM but reduce the ESG. Call it 4 points of damage to the ESG.
(2) Does the ASM require the use of a Seeking Weapon control channel on the impulse it is fired?
REPLY: No, but you must have active fire control.
Wow, ASMs just got real desirable for the Kzinti! They can now down a R3 ESG with DF.
Thats the first thing I thought when I read SVC (1) above. Really got to thinking about actual use for this and saw that it makes little diferance wether you fire a ASM or launch a type 1 drone to knock down an ESG. However, in a situation where one ship is protecting another the ASM would do the job well. i.e when a Kzinti FF is about to get rammed the Kz-CA could fire ASMs (if in range) to knock down the ESG some or all and save the FF. A situation where seaking drones would not be fast enough.
Hey, did I just write the first ASM term paper?
I haven't been following this ASM topic to closely but from what I've seen, I don't care for the ASM. Smacks of technology sloshing - everyone but three races gets them?
Loren. Even worse - big drone wave coming in against the Lyrans, who have ESGs up. Then, "boom" the ESGs go down to ASMs.
I agree Tom, it's too much of a munchkin-syle weapon that "would be useful for X and Y race to have" which is the same lame excuse for putting drones, phaser G's and special sensors on home built ships.
Why would the plasma users even think about using this drone-based weapon?! For one, they simply aren't drone users, their plasma users. The logistics of creating a whole new weapon manufacturing and supply system for a weapon that doesn't even fit their style seems inconcievable(sp?). Two, why would they replace their plasma-D's with this weapon when their D's are much more versatile. They can bolt pretty well out to range 10 (twice the distance of the ASM!), can do comparable damage as a bolt, and can fire as a torpedo multiple times in a turn, whilst the ASM can only be shot once.
The whole concept of the ASM is, in my opinion, flawed. If this weapon came out around the same time as the ADD, then why would the drone races ever use drones again? They are faced with the decision between a direct-fire weapon that does good damage versus a slow missile that does roughly the same damage. With further research, I'm sure they could have increased the damage to make it comparable to a type IV drone even, making even that drone obsolete. Why would any race ever use those slow, stopable drones again, when they can use the sleek insta-damage ASM?
You guys still haven't figured out what the ASM is really for.
My guess is the ASM is to prove a point - trying to fix a problem causes other problems. Sometimes it's best to leave well enough alone...
Tony: While the ASM does show that one can create huge problems with the stroke of a cool idea, the ASM was never intended to solve anything, it was just something cool. So, your guess as to what the ASM is for is .... wrong! Thank you for playing. We have some lovely parting missiles for you.
"Why would any race ever use those slow, stopable drones again, when they can use the sleek insta-damage ASM?"
Because the ASM is a DF weapon and does not influence movement like SW. Also, SWs do predictable damage when they hit. If you replace all of your drones with (short ranged)ASMs then you are likely in trouble. (Though it would be interesting to see how a all DF Kzinti BC plays out. And it would give those who don't typicly have cruch power a shot at it.)
Re: Why plasma races would use these. Prior to plasma tech. these races used missles. So, the ASM isn't that odd. Some Romulan probably looked at the design plans offered up by a Doomed Orion and said "Hey, this could work in our D racks! Fire up the old factorys!".
That all said I have another note for the Kzintis. The ASM kinda makes you ponder new tactics for the 'C' rack. Hmmm.
I'm not promoting the ASM, just calling things as I see 'em. I have concerns that, IMHO, only playtesting will address. If it becomes a rule I'll use it. If not, no loss. I don't see it actually fixing anything (if anything need fixing) though Lyrans might get a small boost against the Hydrans, counter balanced by a new headache from the Kzintis.
I expect a lot of players, for a while at least, will load one per rack for that irresistable oppertunity. Ya, Kzinti will indeed get more dangerous.
Oh ya, and really, really don't let that shuttle live if it's going to get within five of your fleet.
SVC, I can only take you for your word. Please enlighten us(me).