Archive through September 05, 2002
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module J3: Back in the Cockpit:
Archive through September 05, 2002
Andy,
Yeah, but that's a size class four ship; i.e., a frigate or destroyer. This is a fighter. If the field is that large, how would you ever dogfight it? You couldn't, if the field was up. No, if an ESG type field is a serious proposal, it's gotta be too small to block any fire except at the fighter.
MJC, if you REALLY want to fire a valuable hellbore at a fighter, with all the implied penalties, be my guest. As for me, if there is a bigger target anywhere in the area (say, the carrier the fighter came from) I'm shooting my hellbores at that.
Mike, I think the problem is that the current defintion of ESGs assumes that they have an essentially hex-wide influence. Without some specific rules that deal with a smaller, fighter-mounted model, the hellbore-ESG interaction remains a major stumbling block.
This new plasma proposal does indeed sound interesting. It offers a lot of technological similarity to the ESG, but it has a more limited duration and application. In general, I like the idea but I'd prefer to avoid the introduction of "plasma-based" tech in the historical western races (the Peladine are very cool however).
Perhaps the rule could be written to avoid the specific inclusion of plasma based weaponry:
Efforts by Lyran engineers to produce a compact ESG for use on fighters was not entirely successful. They managed to develop a system that could barely envelope the fighter in a very small field (to small for a PF) but the field could not be maintained at a stable strength for any length of time. The very small sphere steadily decayed once activiated. It provided some temporary protection for the fighter at very close ranges, but its small size made offensive use risky...
Decay rate: Depending on the strength and duration desired, this could be adjusted. Perhaps something as simple as the field is reduced by 1 point per impulse once activited. Just a matter of recording the impulse the field is activated and counting impulses.
Hellbore interation: Greatly simplified. The small size of the field surrounding the fighter prevents it interation with HBs fired at other targets, even if the HB is fired through or into the same hex as the fighter. However, if the fighter is the target of the HB, the interation between the field and HB is as normal (an auto-hit).
Duration: Not sure. A plasma-F torp (the origin of this idea) lasts roughly half a turn. How about 16 impulses? Maybe too much.
Strength: Really not sure. 16 points (decaying at a rate of 1 point per impulse)? 10 points (decaying at a rate of half a point per impulse)? Some other number? Maybe if an odd field starting strength or a non-linear decay rate is desired, a chart might be needed.
Activiation: Same 4 impulse delay as an ESG? Perhaps it can not be deactiviated (and reactivited) once switched on. It can be cancelled but the power is lost.
Installation and power: I assume this would be a system that required power from the carrier via a ready rack. It could be built in system on a specialized fighter or (I hope this doesn't get me shot) a pod of some kind. Maybe it requires the use of drone rails (pod rails are insufficent). No idea about how long or how much power should be required to arm this thing.
Striking targets: When the fighter moves into a hex with another target, the player must announce that the fighter is attempting to ram its target with the field. The field is so small that it is possible to occupy a hex with another unit and cause no damage. The fighter must enter the hex after its target does. For example, a fighter with a field could not strike a drone aimed at another target if it entered the hex after the fighter.
Danger of collision: Because of the very small size of the field, if the pilot attempts to use the fighter enveloping field (is that a name - FEF?) to strike a target that exceeds the shield strength, there is strong chance that the fighter may be damaged. If the field strikes a target and that target absorbs all of the remaining field strength, but is not destroyed, roll one die. Record the result as damage on the fighter. This die roll could be modified by pilot quality. Note, this is ignored in the case of seeking weapons target on the fighter generating the field.
Interactions: Field blocks/damages the same things an ESG would. Giving this the ability to block all types of weapons fire could be too much.
Landing with field active: This would, of course, be way bad. If a landing of any kind is attempted while the field is active, the field would cause its normal damage to the receiving ship. Due to the violence of this interaction, there would also be a risk of collision in this case - see above. The collision damage would be scored on the fighter AND the ship.
Just a looney thought a 0430 in the morning. If this is too far in left field, please forgive. I have not had my morning coffee yet.
Jeremy,
No, I don't think its looney at all. That sounds about right, to me. I don't have an objection to a fighter based ESG field; I just don't think it should be a hex across, is all. Your rule description sounds good enough to me.
Well, Mike, by current rules the ESG sucks down Hellbores regardless of size. This is the main reason why any Lyran ESG-fighters have been shot down.
I do agree with you, though, that it doesn't make too much sense. Rather than the station-keeping-purple-EPT-F, I would much rather see a rule for
Mini-ESG (mESG):
carried on a special Lyran drone-rail, can only be re-armed by Lyran carriers, r0 strength 1 ESG. All rules as normal, with only 1 special rule: Due to its microscopic size and weak energy signature, the mESG interacts with Hellbore fire ONLY if the fighter is at range 1 or 0 of the firing ship, or if the fighter is the target of the Hellbore. (range 0 could happen only if the ESG forms at r0 during impulse activity and the ship fires in direct fire stage, I think)
If the Hellbore ship can't deal with a range-1 fighter before firing its wad, something's wrong with the captain's head.
Problem solved, one rule, no tech sloshing, no EPT-Fs. Please. I add my voice to the chorus of people astounded that SVC would prefer a slosh of plasma and ESG techs. Unless maybe he likes this idea... for the Rom/Gorn fighters only! That would be ok. 
Oh, the mESG is also purple.
Jeremy's write up is good too. I am sure we could hammer something like the mESG/FEF out. I like Jeremy's idea for writing into the rule reasons why the mESG/FEF isn't a hex-wide effect, and I like the deleterious ram effects.
I liked most of what the last few messages have said. I envision the unit being a pod (though it could be mounted on a rail) with one power and a range of 1km. The fighter could ram with the ESG but only if executing a CCM, landing or initiating dogfight. Mostly it would just be a defensive system. At the beginning of the turn only it could be toggled on, it goes up immediately, lasts 32 impulses (unless jettisoned or discharged through explosive interaction). At the end of the turn it runs out of power and the field drops (but the pod could be recharged or replaced by the carrier). A fighter activating such a device could 'cover' other units within his same squadron (only) but this inside/outside decision would have to be made at the beginning of the turn. Should a fighter inside a fighter ESG not remain lock step with the generating unit it would eat the ESG. ESGs may not overlap or be created inside one another. Any number of mini-ESGs may operate in a given hex without any fear of interaction. Hellbores firing through a hex with a mini-ESG would ignore that ESG. Hellbores firing at a mini-ESG would auto hit.
Uh... to be clear. I liked the plasma thing as an innovative idea (might go into SSJ) but didn't really think it that plausible as a game addition. As for ESGs, the rules say no ESGs on fighters. Now in theory there might be shield pods in the future, and if this micro-esg is something along those lines it wouldn't be rejected on the spot, but no promises it would get past the censors.
Wow a lot of talk about an off the cuff idea I through out before going home, yesterday.
As per the plasma issue one of the reasons I used the plasma aspect was so that no one would think it was full ESG size. The other was to give the fighter some protection against phaser fire. The reverse being that an opponent could use phasers to eliminate the plasma warhead, such as stingers with gattling phasers. In this way it gives Lyran fighters protection from Kzinti drones , and Hydran phasers.
The other reason for the plasma aspect was that ESG are not allowed on fighters. So I thought a little ESG circuitry to stabilize a plasma sphere might not be too bulky.
And if it is not an ESG field, it does not have ESG interaction with Hellbore, webs, etc.
The ECM was defensive for the fighter, to make it harder to damage the fighter inside the torpedo. To prevent crippling of the fighter making it slow down and get overrun by its own plasma torpedo.
I was thinking last night, and it occurred to me that since the plasma field does not cover an entire hex there might be some restrictions on the number of targets the fighter can hit with the field in any given impulse.
As for tech slosh, if the Lyran conquered the Peladine, they already have access to plasma technology.
The problem is that the Peladine are only psuedo historical. They are an SSJ race, not part of historical SFB (at least that's my understanding). Not sure that that is enough to justify plasma on the other side of the Alpha Sector for the Lyrans. Not that I don't like the idea, I would just prefer to keep some technology unique to specific regions.
That's one of the reasons why I'm not a particularly big fan of plasma races using the ASM. If I understand it correctly, the ASM is based on ADD tech, which was unique to drone races. If plasma races can use the ASM, what stopped them from developing ADDs (I'm sure they would have been very interested in them facing Fed CVA groups). And since I can't think of anything different for the plasma races, that makes me pretty lukewarm on the ASM in general.
I'm not trying to be a total "wet-blanket" pain-in-the-butt. Just my opinion on these things. I tend to be part of "the purchased Klingon fighters work fine for Lyrans" crowd. But I think a derivative of the ESG for Lyran fighters might create an interesting side note. I don't want to see the Lyrans become a big fighter using race.
What Jeremy said.
My understanding of the situation was that the Peladine are historical, but that they were subjugated by the Lyrans just after they started fielding their first warships, in the early Y130s. Thus, their first few ships (CA, DD, etc) are historical, while all their later stuff (CVS, DW, etc) is conjectural, and none of their ships historically remained in-service (at least, not as a Peladine ship) after Y135 or so. It's worth point out that they do show up as subject races in GPD.
Heh. A few weeks ago, I had the thought of a micro-ESG for a fighter. I should have spoken up then and there.
Hellbores should not be auto-hit, even if they are targeting the fighters. This isn't a planet sized field blocking line of site to the target. I could see the fighter losing its small target modifier (E1.7) when targeted by a hellbore, but that's about it.
Back to Lurker Mode.
There is a conflict here. If the sphere is big enough that the fighter can run it into the ship without risking collision with the ship, then it is so large that it will make an ample target of itself.
If it is so small that it is not an ample target of itself and does not interfere with fighters flying in the same hex, then any fighter attempting to ram its sphere into the side of a starship would (unless it is in the act of crashlanding aboard through a shuttle hatch) smash itself into the starship.
Then make it about the size of a moon. You have a chance of missing a moon...
I would think that some radius between a 1km and 100km would allow you to both ram a ship and dodge a hellbore. Its just a matter of technobabble to pick a number.
/slap tractor on lurker attempting to cloak
John Peterson said
"Hellbores should not be auto-hit, even if they are targeting the fighters. This isn't a planet sized field blocking line of site to the target. I could see the fighter losing its small target modifier (E1.7) when targeted by a hellbore, but that's about it.
Back to Lurker Mode. "
Can't eat your cake and still have it! The ESG/Hellbore interaction is part of the neat techno-babble of the game. Personally, I think the Lyran with Drones thing is a neat tactical challenge. Why re-write or add new rules to remove things that make the game interesting/challenging. If everyone wants to be on an equal footing, just play the same race as your opponent.
I agree. If the concern is that this Limited/Light Sphere Generator (after all, it doesn't expand and has a set radius of 0) will block LOS for hellbores, just make it small enough to not block LOS and large enough to ram/impact any target in a hex that the pilot wants it to hit (i.e. the pilot jinks into it, ala dogfight maneuvering). If the fighter is specifically targeted by a Hellbore, the Hellbore autohits but does non-enveloping damage to the sphere and the fighter (this is just a thought for balance, and why they aren't particularly successful weapons from the Lyran perspective). Limit one active per hex, and no other object (besides the fighter) may be "inside" the sphere without impacting it. Perhaps it requires a "to-hit" roll against other fighters, or perhaps other fighters can dodge it (preventing autokills on Hydran fighters).
Sorry Jessica. I had forgotten about the G:PD appearance of the Paledine. Something for another topic: Do the Peladine make an appearance in Y2 or the Middle Years Module?
Back to fighter craziness.
Not likely. They never got around to fielding anything other than nearly-unarmed explorers until launching the basic CA/CL/DD/FF hulls in Y121 (thus, no EY stuff). Fourteen years later, their fleet was completely wiped out (not much room there for MY stuff).
The mESG would have to be larger the 1KM to 100KM because all units in the game are traveling at trans-light speeds. Even 100KM is covered several times before you can blink. My point is that, given SPPs notes, a fighter would still be in danger at those ranges. Make it one tenth of a hex at 1000KM and you would have no danger, but you would have to limit the number of mESGs allowed in a hex. Also, for it to be big enough to be safe for the fighter it seems to me that it is too big for the fighter to generate. That's why there is no R0 ESGs for fighters.
Tos Crawford:
At a hundred kilometers, how many other fighters did you hit while they were engaged in close combat maneuvering? How much it is impacted by asteroids hexes? Dust/Ring hexes?
Marc Baluda: Given how much larger than a SHIP such a sphere would be, how can you claim that a hellbore would miss? Gets you back to if the sphere is big enough to hit a ship, it is big enough to impact lots of things in the hex. If it is small enough to not impact what is happening in the hex, the fighter would collide with the ship while trying to ram it with the sphere.
I just cannot believe that a system that requires two adjacent centerline option mounts on an Orion ship (or other unit with option mounts) could be made to fit on any fighter, and last a full 32 impulses as well, and do as much damage as a full scale ESG with four points of energy.
Here is a really scarry item for the Lyrans against the Hydrans. The ESG drogue. Still covers the ship(max two points into esg, max range 0 (maybe1)) but Hellbore fire hits the drouge instead of the ship. Aaaack!
SVC: I have to ask. Any thoughts on the Plasma Gatling?
Loren: I'm withholding judgement at this time.
Steve Petrick:
"Given how much larger than a SHIP such a sphere would be, how can you claim that a hellbore would miss?"
It would autohit if it is aimed at the fighter. It would miss the field if it is fired through a hex with a volume of 1 trillion (10,000[3]=1,000,000,000,000) cubic kilometers and the field is only 1 billion (1000[3]=1,000,000,000) cubic kilometers. That means that only 1000th of the hex is occupied.
"Gets you back to if the sphere is big enough to hit a ship, it is big enough to impact lots of things in the hex. If it is small enough to not impact what is happening in the hex, the fighter would collide with the ship while trying to ram it with the sphere."
If the fighter pilot aims for something that is significantly less maneuverable (i.e. a fighter vs. a ship) and it only has to come within 500km (the radius of the sphere) I don't see a problem. However, if a target is equally agile (such as another fighter) I could see how an auto-hit could be too extreme. For things that don't maneuver at all, see my first point - if the pilot wants to hit it with the sphere, he does, but he doesn't have to drive the fighter hull into it but rather just clips it with the field.
"I just cannot believe that a system that requires two adjacent centerline option mounts on an Orion ship (or other unit with option mounts) could be made to fit on any fighter, and last a full 32 impulses as well, and do as much damage as a full scale ESG with four points of energy."
It would be strength one (not four), could last for fewer that 32 if you like, has no ability to be recharged (it burns out) and doesn't extend beyond range 0. It's a disposable, compact system that replaces a fighter disruptor (which is a one space weapon), or multiple drones.
These are just my thoughts, and perhaps they don't fit into SFB.