Archive through September 12, 2002
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module J3: Back in the Cockpit:
Archive through September 12, 2002
Marc Baluda:
Yet you still insist (apparently) that such a sphere could not be extended around a ship to block a hellbore shot? (a ship is only a few hundred meters, nowhere near filling the 500 kilometers you have so magnanimously granted) Could not line up between the ship (target of the hellbore) and the firing ship? You have yourself admitted that the fighter is more maneuverable than the clumsy Hydran ship trying to fire its hellbore, why could not the fighters shield ships with their ESG bubbles?
As to the strength, I will (if you will forgive me) cite the original proposal by Jeremy Gray Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 07:50:
"Strength: Really not sure. Sixteen points (decaying at a rate of one point per impulse)? Ten points (decaying at a rate of half a point per impulse)? Some other number? Maybe if an odd field starting strength or a non-linear decay rate is desired, a chart might be needed."
So please forgive me if my brain, addled and weakened by old age and answering too bloody many rules questions over the years, is still able to remember parts of proposals and conversations (GRIN).
You are ignoring, I note, the questions about interaction with terrain.
Bluntly (forgive me) if the sphere is the size you have just granted it, there is NOTHING that prevents fighters so equipped from blocking hellbore fire against a given point target from a given firing unit, and I do not want to touch trying to write the rules to determine which hellbore ship firing at which "defended target" is covered by which fighter or not.
Heck, it creates the great Lyran tactic of, at a key moment, running their fighters next to the Hydran base (which cannot maneuver to get its hellbores to fire around the fighters) to block its hellbores while the Lyran ships close in.
Steve:
With regard to covering a ship by encapsulating it in the sphere, Lyran scientists experimented with that and found that the relatively unstable sphere generated by this compact device couldn't take the strain of another warpfield inside of it (or even a warpfield larger than a fighter, such as a PF) without collapsing.
With regard to positioning a fighter between two ships to block fire, space is too large and ships are too fast to do this (that's why we don't have ramming rules). With regards to positioning yourself in front of a base, well I suppose that would fall under the category of not allowing any ship silhouette to block fire - it just doesn't work and that's that (no need to be clever).
Quote:Now in theory there might be shield pods in the future, and if this micro-esg is something along those lines it wouldn't be rejected on the spot, but no promises it would get past the censors.
I thought of a new weapon that might fit neatly into the Lyran catalog of availible weapons and not suffer from the regular ESG Tech-slosh problems but a fighter sheild might cause problems.
THE DISRUPTOR SPARK
Preamble
The disruptor spark fires a massive electrical charge at incomming fighters and overloads their curcity. This has a rather neat side effect, that the fighter becomes temporarily crippled and then the Lyran fighters are free to pounce on the vessel with close range phaser three fire.
Arming
Each shot cost 0.5 points of power to arm. The weapon can only be loaded with 1 shot but most Lyran fighters are equiped with two of these weapons and a pair of phaser-3s.
Fire
The weapon is fired under the table below but the damage is determined by the rules below that .
| Range | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3-4 | 5-8 | 9-10 |
| To Hit | Na | 1-5 | 1-5 | 1-4 | 1-4 | 1-4 |
Damage
The weapon is far more effective against fighters, mostly because they do not have a ship's sheilds but also because they are small. There are two effects of the damage of this weapon, one effect is to inflict regular damage and the other it to temporarily cripple the shuttle that is hit.
Drones targets
Drone suffer the same regular damage as fighters, but it is not nessessary to record that damage, as the drone looses conection with it's internal guidance systems and goes inert.
Size class 6 targets
Fighters and shuttles suffer regular damage from the massive jolt of electricity as found in the table below.
| Dir Roll | Size class 5 & up | Size Class 6 |
| 1 | 1 | 1 |
| 2 | 1 | 1 |
| 3 | 1 | 2 |
| 4 | 1 | 2 |
| 5 | 2 | 3 |
| 6 | 2 | 4 |
Pfs and Ships
When PFs and Ships are attacked by the Disruptor Spark, there is something to consider.
If the vessel has a raised sheild between it'self and the vessel ( even if only 1 point of general sheild reinforcement ) during the application of the damage then the ship shall suffer no damage from this weapon.
If however the weapon inflicts damage directly to the vessel and does not contact a sheild on the way in, then a dice shall be rolled and the damage listed in the table above shall be applied.
Crippled Fighter Notes
The crippled fighter does not drop or discharge any of it's weapons or pods, it simply ACTS as though it is crippled for the 16 impulses of the duration of the effect.
Attacks against double space fighters or larger will follow a slight rules modification.
If a double space fighter is struck by two Disruptor Spark shots then the penalty shall begin when the second shot struck and end when the first strike reaches the 16 impulses period...for this reasons attacks on double space fighters tend to be in narrow volleied pairs.
I had considered using slightly different rules for the attacks on ships.
The damage applies would have simply melted out the computers that control the varrious systems and thus could be repaired simply by replacing the computer circuits or more accurately by switching the system over to the back-up control computer.
The damage table would have looked like this:- | Dir Roll | Size class 5 & up | Size Class 6 |
| 1 | 1 | 1 |
| 2 | 1 | 1 |
| 3 | 1 | 2 |
| 4 | 2 | 2 |
| 5 | 2 | 3 |
| 6 | 3 | 4 |
But all the damage done to the ship would have caused the system to become "uncalibrated" and thus would be recalibrated with merely one point of CRD being applied.
For those with a keen eye, yes this weapon is quite similar to the ION CANNON of Star Wars.
SPP,
The only reason I suggested 16 pts is to mimic the earlier proposal that suggest a fighter be enveloped by a plasma-F torpedo. I'm not crazy about the idea of Lyrans using plasma for anything but I was trying to capture some of the same effects while avoiding the terminology. I agree 16 pts is probably far too much, even if the field started to decay immediately, but please keep in mind it was pretty early in the morning when I typed that. I was sort of tired but I want to get the idea written down...I have a tendancy to lose ideas unless I write them down.
Given the option between making this a purely defensive device (a very field small enough to incapsulate the fighter and nothing else) and a larger field that gives the fighter an offensive ability to ram (but causes all sorts of other rules questions), I'd opt for the smaller field and lose or severly limit the ramming ability. The reason I stated that the fighter could only hit something that moved before it did on the same impulse is to insure it can only hit a less manueverable target. It is going to be almost impossible for an FEF fighter to hit a drone for example. The damage to the fighter thing was needed because the field need to be very small (to avoid the hellbore "sponge" problem. Maybe the damage to the fighter in a ram should be much higher (making any attempted ram essentially a suicide manuever). I'm still waiting for the post office to get me J2, but maybe this would be somthing for use with remote fighters (no loss of life, just using the fighter as an expensive seeking weapon). I haven't seen those rules yet, so maybe not. In any case, I see the idea of a fighter (or many of them) using an ESG-like-thing to block HB fire as game breaking. If any such "fighter enveloping field" was to ever be created, even in SSJ, I think that in particular needs to be avoided (note - that is a BIG "if").
MJC,
Interesting rule, but my honest assessment is it's a bit unfair. Auto-cripples, even for only 16 impulses, gives a huge advantage to the Lyran fighters. I don't really like "stun" weapons, though, so I may be biased.
MJC: I'm going to let people discuss your spark thing without my biasing that discussion with my own comments.
Michael John Campbell:
I will simply say that I do not want to be burdened with the added paperwork (above and beyond having to keep track of my drones) of trying to record which fighter was "temporarily crippled" on what impulse and will recover on this impulse, plus any changes in status due to additional "temporary cripple" status being added to various fighters from subsequent shots.
The nightmare of trying to track that in a large fighter scrimmage is just not something I even want to contemplate.
Marc Baluda:
Sorry, but in my book you are back to wanting it both ways. If the fighter's sphere covers that much space, then it blocks weapons fire. If fighters are more maneuverable than ships, then they can interpose themselves between ship A and ship B (they do have computers able to navigate at warp speeds between different points). Please remember that a speed 31 fighter (assumes a speed 15 fighter with Mega pack or booster packs and an ace pilot) is fully capable of crashing aboard a starship traveling at speed 31, provided only said starship has a down shield. The facing of the shield in relation to the location of the shuttle hatch is irrelevant, the fighter could approach a Federation DN from its #1 shield facing and, in a single impulse, loop around said ship to pass through the ship's down #4 shield, looping around again to crash aboard through the ship's shuttle hatch, essentially coming through the #1 shield facing. This is with an effective closing speed of 62 hexes a turn.
And you are telling me that it cannot (given that kind of precision) interpose itself between that ship and another ship? With a sphere you have yourself defined as 500 Kilometers (not 500 meters, but 500 Kilometers) across?
And, yes, the above DOES make the case that it should be possible for a fighter to make a ramming attack with a sphere that is much smaller. (Well, I have a habit of being honest.) Although I am not wild about that concept.
Please note, the above is "in my book". We are in a state of disagreement on "game reality". Disagreement is NOT argument, but discussion. No harm, no foul. So I ask everyone not to take any offense to my words as none is intended.
S.P.P.:
I agree in large scale encounters the Record keeping would become nightmarish.
Moreover I think I've altered the Throughput too heavily to offset the Sheild=>No-Damage effect, which may in it'self become a game breaker.
So perhaps the idea should be scratched.
MJC (or anyone else), why should you have an easier time against fighters, which totally hoses the hydrans? Try to improve hydran fighters and you get an arms race argument. Why should you be allowed to swing things the other way?
Except that the Scout rules are already written, MJC's technical assertion would seem a better justification to allow scouts a functionto be able to disrupt a shuttle's more sensitive fire control system temporarilly. Perhaps a sub function of the 'Break Lock-on' function?
Either way, I think this even is an idea best kept for the Journal as well as a big bunch of paperwork.
R
On the spark thing,
I agree with SPP about book keeping. Yuk.
Ben. I think the central theme of the endless Lyran droneless fighter discussion is to come up with something that is as good or nearly as good as drones for Lyrans that isn't actually a drone.
MJC don't give up so soon. Why not have your spark thingie (needs a more nSG or ESn kinda name IMHO) I think a DF weapon that forced fighters to count as crippled until end of impulse ie did drop all drones/pods discharge weapons ect could be a goer. Would force drones to go inert. So similar to but stronger than an RALAD.
You could steal an idea from Omega (Koligahr)and have the weapon only do temporary shield damage to size class 5+ targets. If no real damage is dealt on the same impulse it has no effect but
say 8 damage to sc4+ 12 damage to sc5.
To clarify shield counts as 8 or 12 boxes less per hit until end of impulse.
How about expanding arc generator EAS.
Range upto 3. Hit chance mirror ESG damage reduction r0 or 1 1-4 range 2-3 1-3
Or have 4 charges held and use 2 dice
1 charge is 4,4,3,3
2 charges 8,7,7,6
3 charges 12,11,10,9
Early fighters could have only 2 charges or later 6-8 with a limit of 4 per turn not within 8 impulse ect.
Count half the actual number of charges used against heavy fighters and one third the number against bombers. Double the number against drones.
If the effect is put in the transporter part of the sequence we have a weapon that will annoy stingers, be good against drones and have an interseting effect on ships and PFs.
It will also be a mismash of rules effects that will turn SPP pale I expect
Since my plasma ESG thingie has run into a few issues, plasma tech slosh, and ESG interactions.
How about modifying the idea as follows
Lyran engineers were trying to come up with a cheap seeking weapon that they could fire through their ESG fields. to combat Kzinti drones, and Hydran fighters. They tried to stabilize a disrupter bolt into a seeking disrupter torpedo, using their excellence in ESG fields to stabilize the disrupter bolt.
However after numerous failures it was discovered the disrupter energy would only remain stable while surrounding a small unit. While they failed to develop a seeking weapon, they did develop an energy field weapon for their fighters.
Notes: as it is based on ESG technology, no other races can use it.
field size- a hundred meters. large enough for maneuverable fighters to ram other units without destroying themselves, not large enough to encase a PF, or destroy the rest of the fighter wing in the same hex.
it is not an ESG so no hellbore interactions.
It does dam as per a disrupter with impulses of duration in respect to range. i.e. its strength decreases per impulse as the range table of a disrupter. Maximum duration 16 impulses.
Mind you, I still think the plasma idea was cooler.
100 meters is nothing when things are moving faster than light.
The Lyrans really don't need anything for fighters, just a rule perhaps letting them use more pods for their Klingon purchased fighters or something.
Jim Cummins:
Idea rejected as you are clearly a Hydran (or maybe Federation) spy.
Everyone who uses them knows that disruptor is spelled "d i s r u p t O r".
And, yes, that goes for all the rest of you who spell disruptor "disrupter", you know who you are (and so does the ESS who will be collecting you all shortly).
We have allowed this charade to go on long enough! It is time for a housecleaning. (insert appropriate evil laughter here)
Jim Cummins:
Special Note, there are a lot of people who write it "disrupter" and it is understandable as most "spell checkers" will tell you to correct disruptor to disrupter, but in SFB a disruptor is a disruptor, not a disrupter. I just decided to use you as the beginning of a joking way of saying it. No offense is intended.
Of course, one of SPPs favorite things is to be able to use his maniacal laugh....
I never for an instant doubt the efficiency of the ESS. Their ability to catch a spy by subtle methods of detection is legendary. I salute them for helping to maintain the security of Empire against our enemies all around us.
(Actually, I'd salute them anyways, agonizer booths not getting Battle-Bots and all.)
SPP no offense taken
It's what I deserve for letting a spell checker do my thinking for me
Disruptor
Disruptor
Disruptor
D-i-s-r-u-p-t-o-r
I think I’ve got it
Chris good point about the speed. Though with the speed of light approximately 300 000 km/s, and a hex is IIRC 10 000 km in diameter. That’s 30 hexes/s, isn’t it? A little fast to do anything.
Captain: Ramming speed!!!!!!
Navigator: ahh Captain? you WANT me to drop to 1/100,000 sub light speed?
Okay, new idea. I’ve been kicking this around in my head for about 6 years now. What does everybody think? It's not a fighter-based weapon, but I first devised it as a system to combat fighters.
MWPT (Multi-Warhead Photon Torpedo)
Originally developed by Federation engineers as an anti-fighter weapon in response to the continuing evolution of fighter technology.
Divides a Photon into three mini-photon torpedoes. Each individual warhead from a single MWPT must have a different target.
Each warhead does only 4 points of damage.
Not a proximity weapon. Use the standard Photon to-hit table.
Cost to arm is 3 points of warp power on each of two consecutive turns.
Can be held for 1.5 points of power.
Counts as an overloaded weapon (not usable by fighters). Limited to range 8. Can fire at targets under range 2. Each warhead that hits at target at range 0 or 1 causes 1 point of feedback to the facing shield of the firing ship.
Limited deployment. The equipment for each MWPT must be purchased as a commander’s option for 1 point each. Limited to 2 each per photon launcher per ship or 3 each per photon launcher per carrier or carrier escort.
Useable by Federation carriers and escorts starting in Y174. Useable by all other photon armed ships starting in Y176.
MWPT are no more capable of hitting fighters or other small targets than standard photons. They simply allowed a ship to target more of them at one time.
No additional penalty for firing MWPT at size class 5 or larger units. MWPT where just as effective at targeting larger units as standard photons. They simply allowed more units to be targeted at one time.
I kinda like it, do you have to note on turn 1 that you are arming as a MWPT?
I'ld say the declaration would be during EA of turn 2. Just like the declaration of Proxis.
I might limit it to R6 instead of R8, to avoid confussion with regular overloads and make it more like Aegis.
Just out of curiosity.
Why is it a Photonic weapon?
What do the disruptor dudes and plasma boys get?
The MWPT looks OK to me, even a tad weak (given that it has a BPV cost). It'll take two of them to cripple most fighters, three for a kill. A single photon tube will do that now. The main use I can see for the MWPT is against boosted single space fighters, where a regular photon is overkill.
Does it keep the Heavy Weapon penalty when shooting at drones?
My druthers would be to ditch the need to purchase ammo and to just allow it as an arming option for photons - mainly to avoid the need to keep track of ammo.
RP – Oops, missed that. Decision to arm as a MWPT is made when arming begins. Once arming begins, a Photon cannot be changed into or from a MWPT without discharging the arming energy. It should be the player's decision to have a weapon armed as a MWPT at the beginning of a game based on his weapon status. If he can have an overloaded weapon, or have started loading one, he can have a MWPT.
AEGIS? All the munitions fire at once. Why would you even bother tying the Photon's into AEGIS. You might fire a phaser as a follow up by AEGIS but that shouldn't affect the range of a Photon. I think limiting it to range 8 is enough of a penalty. Photons are all ready a 50/50 crap shoot at that range.
MJC
Why photon? Because when the idea hit me, I thought it would be really cool if the Photon could be made into a multi-warhead weapon. No other reason. I was just thinking about Photon Torps at the time. And no, I was not watching Star Trek of any kind. I was playing SFB with Joe Steger at the time. Personally, I don’t play the Fed because I don’t like the Photon.
The Plasma boys have shotgun and enveloping torps. And soon, they’ll have hyper-fast plasma too.
The Disruptor boys have UIM, DERFACS, one of the better heavy weapon to hit charts when comparing all ranges, and they have the widest firing arc of any heavy weapon.
Hydrans have suicide overloads and a weapon that always hits your weakest spot as well as lots and lots of PH-Gs.
The ISC has a weapon that makes the absolute best use/abuse of the DAC. And like the Photon, has a variable overload capability.
What's my point? Isn't the Photon supposed to be the Wonder Weapon? Look at all the goodies everybody else has for their weapons. Just what’s so good about the Photon?