The G-1's work fine with a single disruptor (as do Needles, but they're even more of a drone PF). They're more of a drone PF than a direct fire PF, but they're flexible in that way (at the cost of being outstanding at either). I usually prefer the G1 to the G1-B except for special situations (against bases/slow targets and Andros primarily). This exactly because the G1's drones don't need power.

While the weapon suite of an interceptor is that of a light PF, they lack the power systems or shields. Most Interceptors have 9 power total, but PFs weigh in around 15 power total (some have 16). That extra power is a major difference (at speed 30, an interceptor has 4 points of spare power; a PF has 8). Interceptors have 9 point hemispherical shields while PFs usually have 6 12 point shields. The difference in practice between the hemispherical shields and the standard ones is quite signficant, especially in fleet battles (random ph-1 sniping is no longer effective, damaged shields--eg T-bombs--can be hidden).

From my analysis, the only race that would really find light interceptors useful would be the Lyrans (similar effective performance, lower cost). And even there, I don't see it replacing PFs outright, just an alternative (for that something different desire).

Finally, the Light PF as I've proposed are an evolution beyond PFs, not a precursor (like interceptors are). They'd be historically available for more than a year. I'm not saying they're anything necessary, but more an interesting footnote that would perhaps compensate the Lyrans, PF inventors and primary users, for otherwise having the weakest PF.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 01:36 am: Edit

After checking J2-- possible K2 "obvious varients". ACS (area control ship) modified to have a SCS style 12 fighter, 6 PF group, with no heavy weapons.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 02:14 am: Edit

The ACSs cannot be "modified" to use PFs as they have internal bays. It would be a major rebuild to add PFs. Of course, Petrick already has all of the ACS-PF SSDs done (since he misunderstood what I wanted him to do).

By Stuart C. Brennen (Evlstu) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 03:29 am: Edit

Would it be possible to build the "modified" ACSs from the keel up according to a modified design?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Then you're building a 'new' ship, not modifying an existing one...

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 08:07 pm: Edit

When I look at Lyran PFs, one thing that is of particular note is that they get the first, and possibly the worst, PF.

I realize that P-1s were purposefully limited on the PF, and that it has two disruptors that make up for the lack of long range firepower (to a point), but the PF lacks the power to effectively use both disruptors (they have a max range of 10, so most shots probably are in overload range, but the PF struggles to overload both disruptors).

What I propose is a further development of the PF, using existing Lyran technology....

... can we discuss a power pack for the Lyran PF? I would suggest 2 APR.

By John Murphy (Jemurphy) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 08:51 pm: Edit

All PFs lack the powre for overloads. The idea is that 12 normal disrupters at R10 or closer is pretty darn good. That is 3 D5's in disrupter firewpower for the cost of a D5 and an E4. Add more power to those things and I see only more balace lost. PF's are already the more bang for your buck than any other ship in the game.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 09:07 pm: Edit

John:

Not true. PFs with one disruptor have plenty of power. Also, they have P-1s. The Lyrans do not.

What I'm suggesting is a Lyran-only development using their expertise in PFs (and their PF sucks compared to the copycats in the rest of the GW - like the pun?). Why Lyran-only? Because only Lyran ships have powerpacks.

By John Murphy (Jemurphy) on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 09:16 am: Edit

I'll take a flotilla of Lyran PFs against hydran, klingon or kzinti fleets. It's more flexible than 1 disr based ships. The idea is you don't even have to get inside range 8. Hit em at 10, turn around and open room. You'll kill any PF or capitol ship doing that, at the loss of fewer PFs. Did the PF campaign with them against G1's. After 2 rounds I had killed every G1. They have a different flavor. Give them P1's and take away disr and you have a G1. Give them more power, they are overpowered and you have to ask yourself why they just didn't build only PFs and PFTs.

Now you want to talk bad PFs, try flying Hydran PFs. Those things could use power packs. To overload mans they don't move. Without overloads they are insignificant. And the fusion based PFs have to get inside easy kill range to get what? Another phaser 1 equiv. If you want I'll give you blow by blow why the Lyran PF is better than the hydran.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 10:51 am: Edit

There's a number of "first and worst" ships out there....

The Fed BC comes immediately to mind.
So does the Fed DN.
The Kzinti CV is no prize, either.

It isn't exactly uncommon for the race to be the first out of the gate with some new tech to also wind up with the most mediocre example of it, as other races use that as the baseline for their own designs.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 03:56 pm: Edit

The Kzinti CV became the CVS, which is a pretty fine ship. Likewise, the DN arguably became the DNG, ditto. The Lyran PF just becomes an expanding cloud of debris, IME...

I do have to wonder how a flotilla of Bobcats was blasting through those G1s, unless it was before fast drones were invented.

After all, if you take R10 and turn off, I'll get R8, and my 1 OL takes the same power and does the same damage as your 2 standards. Plus I get 2 drones per PF and 2 P2s (you'll get one in arc, if that), and I'm hitting weaker shields.

You can of course HET, but that takes power and you can't do it much. And you're using phaser power to kill drones. The 1 extra APR barely covers that.

The Bobcats are of course cheaper (no drones to pay for), but not by enough.

The power pack looks good to me.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 09:19 pm: Edit

I'm OK with a Power Pack too.

By John Murphy (Jemurphy) on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 03:01 am: Edit

JD:

Step 1, you lose PFs. You won't have all of them flying through. Maybe even the scout goes poof. Then I can gain an ECM advantage. At R10, 2 G1's are out of action. Not necessarily destroyed, but able to do far less. I try to make one of them the scout PF. The ability to do the same damage at R10 that you do at R8 means I get to fire first and hurt you worse. Add 2 points of power on that PF and it will become a holy terror. Mark my words.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 03:39 am: Edit

I have always liked the 3-engine Lyran PF idea. 3 2-box engines with FX Disr (single), 3 x P2 (FH, FA/L, FA/R) and 2 x P3 (LS, RS). Fill in other boxes as appropiate. Basically giving a cut down Military Police feel to the PF.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 04:08 pm: Edit

John:

I'll take that bet.

6 G1s, 6 Bobcats.

T1, R10: Lyrans fire all 10 disruptors. Liberal average of 7 hit doing 21 points (no EW shift as both PFSs are doing their job). G1-1 takes insignificant internals (if any, depending on reinforcement). Bobcats turn off, Klingons close to 8 and fire 5 overloads. Conservative average of 3 hits for 18 points. Same effect as the Lyran fire (slightly less damage, but a weaker shield).

I now have positional advantage and am chasing you, and fire phasers through the down rear shield. My fire is effective at R8, your phaser fire from R10 (if you fired at all) would have been marginally effective. You have a wrecked Bobcat, I have a damaged G1.

I also now have drones in flight.

Rinse, repeat. You will no longer have phasers since they will be tied up on drones, and I am doing as much damage as you are with my disruptors.

Tell me again, how do you win this? Charge in with overloaded, dual disruptors, through drones and an EW shift (since your power is otherwise tied up)?

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Jessica:

I agree that there were a number of "first and worst" ships, but as pointed out they were refitted to make them some of the best.

That's my proposal here, and it is in-line with Lyran technology to add a tiny power pack to handle power problems.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Marc,
The problem is that you did not take into account the Lyran's first strike damage. If Lyrans fire vs G1S, Kligons WILL have EW shift. If vs a standard G1, there is a good chance of destroying the disruptor meaning your average damage goes down.

That being said, I agree that a small power pack of 1 APR, 1 BATT is needed as a Lyran upgrade for fast drones. (approx Y181 is about the time it should be introduced). This is about a 3 BPV upgrade.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 06:34 pm: Edit

10 disruptors at R10 (no EW shift) does about 20 damage. That'll cripple one PF or break a shield on two.

Now assume that my PFs are either under EM (the 5 combat types) or at R11+ (the scout - no way are you going to get a shot at that), and you're doing only 10 damage through a 2-shift. Admittedly I have a bit of trouble guiding the 2 dozen drones I'd like to have in the air, but ATG and the scout can handle much of that.

Then of course you can go to EM while running, but you still have to deal with the drones, which is rather more tricky through a 2-shift.

The Bobcat isn't a total loser, but as the Lyrans are almost defined by the things, they ought eventually to have realised that they weren't much good.

Given packs, PFs are not short of power, so adding 2 APR to a Bobcat won't have the same effect as adding, say, 2 Ph-2 or upgrading to Ph-1s. So apart from getting a free OL every turn (which means closing to R8), it has little gross effect. Alternatively, it's a free HET or EM or 2 EW or reinforcement or whatever, but nothing grievous.

It'll make most difference when the PF dumps its packs, but that's when the Bobcat really sucks. Any other PF has zero-power weapons (plasma-F/D, drones, ADD) or good phasers (1,G) which cost nothing to hold. A packless Bobcat lacks the power to arm and move, and isn't even much good for drone defence.

I'm not sure the 3-engine PF is any improvement...a P2 in place of a disruptor? Better at R3- and R11+, but not by much. Worse in between.

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Ken:

"The problem is that you did not take into account the Lyran's first strike damage. If Lyrans fire vs G1S, Kligons WILL have EW shift. If vs a standard G1, there is a good chance of destroying the disruptor meaning your average damage goes down."

How will 20 damage do that? I am looking at the G1-S SSD. It has 12 pt. front shields (as do the standard G-1. It has 3 hull, and two spec. sensors. Say it is at speed 25 (5 pts.), 2 in EW, 1 in shields. That leaves 7 pts.

I am assuming in my hypothetical no EW shift. If you want to play games with EW to achieve a shift, you might decrease the damage further if you guess the right Bobcat to loan to, but you won't if we are playing averages. So, no shift in either direction (if you got lucky by loaning EW to the right Bobcat, you might take less damage, but let's leave that out).

With this in mind, my G1-S can have up to a 19 point shield (again, calling EW a break-even, which benefits the attacker). If we factor in powering the channels, and some EW pool (lets call it 6 points total), I have a 13 point front shield, and plenty of systems to pad the channel (or the diruptor, as the case may be). Unless you get lucky, your eating 5 disruptors.

So, how are you doing significant damage, unless you factor in phasers, which will only get shot at the G-1 once before you have to deal with drones? By the way, I fire my P-2 at range 8, you fire yours at range 10. I make out WAY ahead even if I lose a disruptor.

If I have G1Ps, the problem for the Lyran gets worse.

Jim:

Same comment. How do 20 points "cripple one pf or break the shield on two"?

Also, adding 2 APR helps alot, especially without packs (although I have never seen PFs without packs....). This gives you a free overload, extra EW, free EM, free HET, etc. Two power makes a big difference on cruisers, and it makes at least the same difference on PFs.

So, to keep the discussion going, would a 2 APR power pack for the Lyran PF be an appropriate addition to the game? If so, what would it cost? My guess would be 2 EPV/4 BPV.