Hi.


Once the Empire (and its neighbours) makes the shift towards advanced technology, and expands the range of diplomatic interests post-Unity (potentially, at least) there may be a need to have the diplomatic cruisers in service during the Middle Years era be superseded by an advanced technology successor, the way that the TL12 ships themselves succeeded the likes of the D4N.


As well as operating in Alpha itself, an advanced diplomatic cruiser could be handy for making the trip along the Unity routes and back, when sending envoys to and from the rebuilding Magellanic powers. Plus, in keeping with how the Federation eventually made use of the GSX Sakharov in exploring Omega, maybe a suitably-presentable Klingon ship would be good for an eventual 'Empire promotion tour' in that distant Octant someday...


So, should the Empire have cause to build such ships, what would be a good means of converting a DX SSD into that for a DXN?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 12:42 am: Edit

Gary, I thought the changes from a D7 to a D7N were relatively minor... something like removing drone racks and adding more shuttles, dropping the ADD (from the B refit, but keeping the shield improvement) and assigning a Z-YC fighter.

The problem of having a DXN class isnt the physical changes to the SSD so much as having enough production capacity to allow for one of the relatively scarce (and very expensive X ship hulls to be assigned to full time diplomatic courier duty.

Honestly, I have to wonder if it is really necessary to use an X ship for that duty... in theory the Diplomats arent going to be in the thick of the fighting a that point in SFH... why not leave them their D7Ns... now if they need X tech... why not apply a XP refit to the D7N?

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 01:29 am: Edit

I would think if the Klingons needed one of those the change would be- "HEY YOU! You're a Diplomatic Cruiser this week!"

The change would be that one of the officers would have to give up his quarters for the ambassador.
regards
Stacy

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 01:53 am: Edit

The historical detail and widening range of new X-vessels in the Empire in X1R indicates that by Y195 the production of advanced technology hulls had become much more widespread...

...and the 'just use a regular cruiser' line could have just as easily stopped the D4N, D5N, D6N and D7N from being used.

The Empire was making a point of principle in using them.

(The whole 'no mutiny' thing might have helped with doing that... though I forget if Klingon X-ships can still mutiny or not.)

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 02:56 am: Edit

I don't know that there would need to be any physical changes to the DX for diplomatic service. The siginificant upgrades to the D7N:

1. No mutiny. - NA for a DX, Klingon X-ships can't mutiny (XG6.0)

2. Drones in rear deck house omitted to expand shuttle bay for the Admiral's shuttle and an escorting fighter - Would be unnecessary on a DX; it would use PFs. With the introduction of G1N, the Klingons have a much more effective way to move flag officers. I'd expect a DX on diplomatic duty to carry a G1N + a combat PF on its mechlinks.

For that matter, if a DX were not available, just about any X-ship could probably be used for the assignment, as long as it had mechlinks. An FX might be a tad small to carry an Admiral's ego, but a D5X could certainly get the job done.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 09:58 am: Edit

Great point about the mech-links, Jeremy. I agree completely.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 04:00 pm: Edit

I agree that eventually there would be a DXN. I am not sure what the time interval between the DX entering service and the DXN showing up would be.

The problem is that "things were kind of hectic" between Y168 and Y202, and a case could be made that they were too hectic to divert a DX hull just for the Diplomatic mission. (This is my opinion). An enlarged deckhouse for the special Ambassadorial shuttle seems an obvious need. I am not sure if PFs are going to remain in production after the early Y200s. (Note, I am uncertain, that does not mean they did continued production or did not, it means I am not sure.) With X-Tech not able to apply to them, and more X-ships showing up . . . there is a real question of the economics for building them. So I am just not sure.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 06:41 pm: Edit

There is one issue I have with the no mutiny thing (now I've had a look over X1 and X1R again) - since it seems to me that the special rules governing the Klingon X-ships in general, and the penal X-cruiser in particular, seem to better suit representing the kind of X-fleet the Empire may have had in Y185, but not so in, say, Y200.


It was easier for the Empire to stack their X-ships with high quality (and highly loyal) crews when they are still relatively new and rare hulls. However, if, as it says in X1R, 'Most (but not all) new starship production after Y195 consisted of X-ships', there will simply not be enough of these officers and crewmen to go around, much as the Empire would love to think otherwise.


In that context, I'd also ask that the rules governing X-ship mutiny be re-considered when covering the third X-ship epoch.


(Actually, I wonder if such a principle might not be potentially added to the changeover from TL11 to TL12 back in the Y120s - maybe the Empire tried to stuff their first few D6s with their best crews, but could not sustain this once the TL12 ships entered widespread service.)


Regarding a potential YIS for the DXN, I'd request that the ship be considered for service in either Y200 (when the Alpha Octant was largely secure, allowing for the negotiations leading to Operation Unity to be held) or Y202 (once Unity succeeded, and contact with the Magellanic powers made. A DXN could be used either within the Alpha Octant, on trips to the Cloud and back. Indeed, maybe, in the wake of the Sakharov's adventure in the Y210s, the Empire might consider the ship as a means of advancing its own interests in that corner of the universe, if they can find a way to get it there and back).


And PF-wise, there are cases in Omega of specific types of gunboats remaining in service for a significant length of time, due to their missions (the Iridani and Qixa PFQs). Plus, one could assume that civilian workboats might be around for quite some time to come, unless some new design comes along and does their job better for a civilian owner. So, a gunboat intended for diplomatic use might have a longer shelf-life than those intended for front-line combat.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 10:58 pm: Edit

I wonder, (from a credits and deci-credits basis) if it would make more sense to just design an admirals G1N...sort of a combination workboat and yacht.

that way the "flag ship" could be any Klingon Deep Space Fleet ship with a mech link, and when needed, let the admiral (or his designated flag captain) take the G1N off on the various diplomatic missions as needed.

when bigger guns are required, simply call in the fleet units and pound (errrrr, oops, I mean) negotiate from a position of strength, as it were.

By Sean O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 11:27 pm: Edit

Gary, weren't post-General War fleets much smaller than the fleets prior to the GW? That would reduce the need for potentially disloyal draftee non-Klingon crews.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 12:27 am: Edit

Jeff, see my post above. There already is a G1N (which carries an MRS!) in module K1. It exists for just that purpose.

While I mean no disrespect to SPP or anyone else here, I just see a DXN as too much of a reach unless the rules are going to be re-written to allow mutiny on Klingon X-ships. Back before X-ships and PFs, there was a genuine need: ships could mutiny on you and you needed the extra shuttle space. Now, with purpose built PFs specifically for diplomatic missions and very well armed ships with loyal crews, I just don't see it.

Even if you did have a purpose built ship, we're talking a DX with two drones replaced with shuttles and a different title. Without a scenario or some pretty unique campaign rules, I'm not sure the ship would ever see much time on a gaming table. If there is a page in CLs that needs to get filled in a hurry, I say go for it. But otherwise, it just seems like a waste of an SSD page.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 02:37 am: Edit

I could certainly see one being built soon after OpU and only serving a short time before an X2 verson would be built (which might be one of the first dozen X2 ships because of the impressive nature of such a ship and the era where diplomacy would be "in action".)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 11:53 am: Edit

Sean:

From as far back as the Vergarian mutiny of Y12, the Deep Space Fleet has had to deal with the issue of potential mutiny on their ships...


Jeremy:

As noted above, I'd argue that by Y200, the odds that the DSF has enough quality officers and crew to fill all of the non-penal X-ships in the fleet would be somewhat lower than it might have been in Y185 - which, coupled with the winding down of the Andromedan campaign in the Octant proper, would make a DXN that bit more viable.

And I'd argue that there is still the point of principle that the Empire may wish to pursue, in having such a ship fielded. But that's just me.


Loren:

Well, the Empire need not chuck its X1 ships entirely once X2 tech comes along - after all, the Federation were still more than able to make use of the X1-tech Sakharov in the Y210s.

Indeed, the last D4N was in service until Y135, despite its sister ship being replaced by a D6N nine years earlier.

So, even if a 'DX2N' is eventually built, the DXN would still likely have a role.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 02:51 pm: Edit

IIRC, the Old Kings had security stations on the original ships.

As for building a Diplomatic Cruiser? Personally, I'd rather see a DX Utility ship with a couple NWO boxes and a pair of their weapons OPT. On a Diplomatic Mission they become Flag Quarters and Disruptors, on a survey mission labs and special sensors.

I would HOPE that the darn naval architects could at least have learned the utility and power lessons of the HDW and tugs and applied it to the X era.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 02:59 pm: Edit

But part of the importance of a diplomatic cruiser is in the kind of officers and crew (all ethnic Klingons) assigned to it.

The relative importance of this point may depend on the way the Klingon X-fleet will have gone by Y200 or so, but it certainly was for the use of the previous generations of diplomatic ships.

There may be a use for some kind of utility ship within the Deep Space Fleet proper, but I don't necessarily envision one being appropriate for the kind of role the Empire would give to an -N ship, which would not be intended to serve as part of any one fleet in any event.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Alternately, the Klingons had made such progress in integrating the Subject races that mutiny was no longer an issue.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Michael C Grafton:

Not sure the case has been made that the Klingons have succeeded in integrating their society... that implies that they would become more like the Federation (i.e. "multicultural").

(With all due respect, I am not attempting to make derogitory comments, or offend anyone)

Is it possible that the Klingon Empire went from a totalitarianistic state to an apartheid system?

If it did, then it might be more likely to have potential mutiny issues, rather than less.

just a thought!

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 03:29 pm: Edit

I was thinking that the subject races had EARNED more respect as the GW and subsequent ISC/Andro eras went on. This led to greater acceptance, treatment (ie Klingons treated them better) and this led to the Subject races becoming much less likely to revolt/ mutiny.

Kracist rethinks his views as he serves with a valiant crew of the races that he wasn't too sure of back on the ranch...

Just like there were some rocky years when the US military integrated but now, perhaps, the military is fairly free of racial bias. Black and Hispanic generals...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 10:09 pm: Edit

Sounds idealistic, but I don't remember any data like that in Star Fleet History, the captains logs or the old Nexus magazines...

Just how do you propose to convince SVC that yours is the correct interpretation of the data!

More importantly, I suspect that from a gaming POV it would be "more fun" if the chance of mutiny continues into the X years in some form.

Not arguing that the existing rules need be changed, just that some provision for mutiny be left in the game as part of the racial uniqueness that makes Klingons klingons.

just my $0.02 worth.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Gary,

I never said the Klingons would chuck anything. I'm saying their DX and DXD hulls would be way too busy to convert anything to a DXN and they really aren't doing a lot of diplomacy until the end of the Andro war. Then X2 comes out. I figure about the time of the trade wars the Klingons would be considering another Diplomatic Cruiser and would probably just step up with an X2 cruiser at that point. (Leaving all DX's and variants as fighting ships.)