Archive through July 02, 2009
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Archive through July 02, 2009
Mike,
I can deal. Gives us a place for a new run of Eagle class ships.
And those ships wouldn't be at all the same because the Roms don't get warp mounted weapon construction. There would be no king eagle even.
But perhaps gorn fins on romulan ships?
Quote:I think the Vulcan Empire option would work best in terms of developing the historical background, since we have an obvious diversion point....Surak's side loses.
Sure. I really don't think anyone disagrees with that. It is just everything else. 
(Some shorthand: I am using aRomulans to mean the Surak generated alternative Romulans, and Terrans to mean Terran/Vulcan Empire.)
Some of the decision points I can see:
- How specist are the Terrans? Do they use the Klingon subject races view? Do they use the Kzinti "trapped" view? Do they use genocide? Or do they just incorporate them into their violent culture?
- Besides the Terrans and aRomulans, does anyone else change natures? Do the Klingons become pansies? Are all the Lyrans democratic? Are the Gorns sentient-eating hyperviolent lizard-men? Or, is everyone else's natures the same, and just the balance of power changed?
- Do the Terrans use the same ships as the Federation with a new paint-job? Or do the Terrans turn into a munchkin paradise of overgunned, overpowered, unstoppable combat monsters?
- What about the aRomulans technology? Do they develop Eagles? Do they use plasma? Or, is this an opportunity to have everyone introduce their own favoriate new weapon? What about their "modern" ships? What do they look like?
- Do the Carnivons stick around? They can, but is it desirable? Remember, Petrick has never actually done the GW-era Carnivons.
- Do the Paravians stick around? Do we have the CL28 sunsnake into a Gorn sun full scenario, or do we try to make some half-stop solution that keeps independent Paravians, Gorns, and aRomulans? (This becomes a non-issue if the nature of the Paravians is changed.)
I have more, but I ran out of time.
Tune in tomorrow...
Oh, BTW, while I am thinking of it ...
One other assumption I had for the setting is that the intent is to keep the overall balance of power the same. The dynamics are all totally different (new Terrans, new aRomulans, new alliances), but the overall balance remains. So, when the General War starts, it involves all it should involve (with the different alliances), but, in the end, it still stalemates.
No empire is supposed to disappear (well, except for those that will anyway), and he overall cadence of the history is still the same: there is still a 4PW, there is still a GW, there is still an ISC War, there is still an Andromedan invasion.
That was one of the whole points of the TV episode: even with all of these changes, it still works out the same. (Well, until DS9 had alt-Spock turn into a pussie.) The idea is that the situation is still similar, is still balanced, still uses completely recognizable pieces, but the dynamics are totally, radically different.
Mike (West):
Interesting thoughts and most of them make a great deal of sense. I particularly like the combination of CL#28 with the aRoms.
One point to make regarding 'new weapons' for the aRoms is that the ISC in the early years have a variety of weapons which led to the PPD or 'dead-ended'. If the aRoms could somehow get a hold of those weapons instead with an extrapolation...
But I do take your point that leaving weapons 'as is' makes the project simpler with less testing involved. AND the replacement of the Gorn in the 'north' with the Paravians, and combining the Gorn aRom empires eliminates my issue with the Gorn being too vanilla since you'll have an interesting 'merged' empire, with potentially different 'modular' vessels.
I'm also in agreement that simply changing the 'mentality' of each race to the opposite isn't as interesting as making one or two tweaks and then developing a coherent timeline that still keeps each race recognizable.
Certain things would stay the same (Kzinti and Lyrans not allying; Tholians being reclusive aggressive defenders of their territory).
And as you pointed out, the goal would still be to have a stalemate after the major wars.
Anyhow, _I'm_ happy with how this is all generating discussion, and I could live with Mike West's general outline quite nicely as _the_ Alternate SFB universe. ;)
Some comments regarding the decision points Mike posed:
1. "How specist are the Terrans? Do they use the Klingon subject races view? Do they use the Kzinti "trapped" view? Do they use genocide? Or do they just incorporate them into their violent culture? "
- I'd say 'All of the Above' depending on the circumstances. I could see for instance, the Tellarites or Andorians joining the Terran Empire as happy participants, but just as easily could see them resisting and having to be enslaved/destroyed/sequestered. Humans after all are pretty flexible. Aggressive Vulcans might have a Romulan point of view (and to be honest I'm not sure how the Romulans would handle the matter). So an add on question might be, "Who's really the senior partner - Vulcans or Humans?"
2. Besides the Terrans and aRomulans, does anyone else change natures? Do the Klingons become pansies? Are all the Lyrans democratic? Are the Gorns sentient-eating hyperviolent lizard-men? Or, is everyone else's natures the same, and just the balance of power changed?
- As stated above, I prefer the 'one or two changes' with everyone else more or less staying the same philosophically. After all, the main changes in the proposal so far happen well before many of the races come into actual contact.
3. Do the Terrans use the same ships as the Federation with a new paint-job? Or do the Terrans turn into a munchkin paradise of overgunned, overpowered, unstoppable combat monsters?
- Same ships with new paint job. Whether or not the Vulcans run the show or not, we could posit that the Terrans come up with the ship designs that eventually get used by the fleet.
4. What about the aRomulans technology? Do they develop Eagles? Do they use plasma? Or, is this an opportunity to have everyone introduce their own favoriate new weapon? What about their "modern" ships? What do they look like?
- Well, I really like the Gorn + aRom combo the more I've thought about it. That by itself makes them unique especially if a new ship design type appears after the 'Eagles'.
5. Do the Carnivons stick around? They can, but is it desirable? Remember, Petrick has never actually done the GW-era Carnivons.
- There's that... I'd love to see the Carnivons stick around just to make the West even more chaotic than it already is. But I concede that updating their ships to GW standards would require a lot more playtesting. Checking the timeline, it's certainly possible that the Feds could pressure the Kzin enough to allow the Carnivons to survive. Heck, the Feds might even turn the Kzinti into this universe's Hydrans, kicking them back into unknown territories until the Kzin come back to retake what's theirs in Y136.
6. Do the Paravians stick around? Do we have the CL28 sunsnake into a Gorn sun full scenario, or do we try to make some half-stop solution that keeps independent Paravians, Gorns, and aRomulans? (This becomes a non-issue if the nature of the Paravians is changed.)
- Since we have 'GW era' ships for them, it would be much easier to keep these over the Carnivons. As said above, I like the CL28 + Gorn being absorbed into the aRom empire.
My own points of discussion having looked at the timeline:
1. I'm not sure that the events in the alt-Universe would modify the formation of a strong treaty between the Klingons and the Lyrans. Although if the Carnivons put a bit more pressure on the Lyrans, and the Terrans put a bit more on the Klingons, both sides might fight each other just a bit harder and longer, turning respect for fighting tenacity into a deeper bitterness.
2. If the Hydrans and Lyrans ally, one assumes that the Lyrans never discover that the Hydrans are a delicacy... ;)
3. A more serious Hydran/Lyran point... What about Hellbores/ESGs? Do we say that it's basically an accident that the Hellbore auto-hits an ESG and that both sides' best scientists can't figure out how to prevent the problem? One balance worry is that the Mizia effect could become more pronounced if Hydran and Lyran ships
work together. ESG hits a ship, Hydrans fire Hellbores as a separate volley, and all other direct fire weapons hit as a third volley. Of course you can get the same effect with Hydran + Drone Users, but for the most part Hydrans fought without help from other empires. Alternatively, because of the interaction between the weapons, it could be fleet policy for both sides not to fight in 'mixed groups' unless absolutely necessary.
I suggested the changeup of alliances in the "western" powers for two reasons: 1) To make it different and 2) To keep the Kzintis from dying.
If the Kzintis are fighting the Terrans AND the Klingons AND the Lyrans AND the Carnivons, they are doomed. They might not even make it *to* the Middle Years, much less *through* the Middle Years. And, of the four neighbors, they CANNOT ally with the Lyrans or Carnivons, and the Terrans were supposed to be hostile. That makes the Klingons the only option for ANY ally for the Kzinti.
That all said, maybe that isn't as bad as all that. Maybe it is the Kzinti who are driven off-map (rather than the Hydrans), while the Carnivon take over most of their former territory, with a sliver to the Klingons and the Barony to the Terrans. Or maybe the Barony becomes a client state to the Terrans. That would give us a new "small power" to play with.
It can go a number of ways. I just want to make sure that the various empires act as they should. (E.g. no alliances between Kzinti/Lyran/Carnivon no matter what.)
Mike,
I definitely understand the reasons for your suggestions, and I agree with the desire to shake things up!
At this stage, I'm taking a serious look at the Official Timeline to try to see what effect the aggressive Terran/Vulcan empire would have on the other early year races. One thing to note is that the Lyrans, Klingons, Kzinti, Carnivons and Hydrans were fighting each other before the Feds ever encountered the Kzinti or Klingons.
"Key Events in the Official Timeline below"
Y38: First Lyran-Klingon war begins
Y40: First Federation-Romulan War begins; First Lyran-Hydran war begins
Y42: First Lyran-Klingon war ends
Y43: First Lyran-Hydran war ends
Y46: First Federation-Romulan war ends: Federation expands more quickly to Southeast in response.
Other wars between Lyrans, Klingons and Kzintis.
Y55: First contact between Carnivons and the Kzintis and the Lyrans.
More wars between Lyrans, Klingons, Kzintis, Carnivons and Hydrans
Y79: Tholians arrive
Y83: Tholian first contact with Klingons
Y84: Tholian first contact with Federation
Y85: Klingon first contact with Federation, although the Vulcans had met the Klingons previously.
Y88: First Fed-Kzinti war... (not sure when the two first contacted each other or if this was the first contact)
The key potential change here is that if the Vulcans know of the Klingons, and if there is no attack from the Southeast by the aRoms in Y46, the Feds could easily focus more to the West and Southwest much earlier than they did.
One other point is that the General War _could_ have more of a Pre-1900 European War feel to it than the World War I/II feel that the Historical General War did. In other words, you might have two major combatants (Terran/Vulcan empire vs the aRoms) for the duration of the war, but individual smaller conflicts of opportunity could occur between other empires in addition to the main two gaining and losing allies at various times. Perhaps by the end, there would be two definite sides, but I could certainly see a more fluid/chaotic General War than occurred in the real universe.
I agree with the Terrans focusing on the west with the Klingons and Kzinti. I imagine the aRomulans would have been much more deliberate in their expansion. As such, it is quite likely that the Terrans wouldn't even really know about the aRomulans until much later. So, with totally open space to the east, and enemies to the west, it makes perfect sense for the Terrans to push that way.
I can also see the Terrans intentionally pushing hard to the south to "cut off" the Klingons from that open space. That would ensure that the Tholians take Terran space, not Klingon space.
But I also agree that the GW will have to be different than a pure two-sided affair. The Paravians will be a total wildcard, and the Carnivons will likely be also. (Then again, the Carnivons could ally with someone; just not the Kzinti or Lyrans.)
Ok... so:
Possibility #1:
Pressure by the Terran/Vulcans as they go after the Klingon/Kzintis has the effect of reversing the roles of the Hyrdrans and Kzintis. The Klingons have to focus on the Feds, and early wars leave the Lyrans and Hydrans stalemated with each other (incidentally, this apparent equality of the two sides could lead to the same 'respect' that was generated between the Lyrans and Klingons, as opposed to the hardened enmity that comes from being kicked completely out of your territory).
The Lyrans, Carnivons, Klingons, and Terran/Vulcans (TVs) all hit the Kzinti in multiple wars, and eventually one of the wars causes an apparent complete collapse. Kzinti space could then be split between the TVs/Carnivons. In Y136, the Kzintis return with their updated ships, catching both former enemies off guard.
The TVs, as Mike suggested, take control of the territory that the Tholians arrive in. Due to it being relatively recent conquest and weakly defended, the Tholians have no problems consolidating. The TVs probably think that the Klingons attacked the area, but due to other concerns don't realize it's a new power until well after the Tholians are ensconced.
The biggest problem with this timeline as far as I can see, is as Mike points out.. the Carnivons haven't been extrapolated to the GW yet.
So we have two empires which would need some reworking of ships from Middle Years on. Carnivons more or less whole cloth... aRom/Gorn 'modular ships' if we use the really cool idea of Gorn style modular ships instead of the Hawk series.
I like the idea of a role-reversal between humans/vulcans and klingons.
Arguably the size and power of the Terrans would be a serious threat. It'd be kind of funny if the Klinks were forced to be comparative nice guys in the sense of having to keep a fractious alliance together to keep a serious counterbalance to the terrans.
Seriously, how much can the western powers really afford war when there's a Terran Empire there to eat them alive if they expend too much fighting each other? In many ways, you can argue that the peace-preferring nature of the Federation allowed the Western powers to go to war with far more abandon. A conquoring Terran Empire would likewise force (some) peace on the Western powers.
I can rationalize both the Lyrans and the Carnovons being in the Klingon Alliance, but only under deniable terms. They won't fight alongside each other (they'll fight WITH each other), but they'll both fight alongside the Klingons as long as nobody reminds them that the other is in the alliance too. Carnovon/Lyran/kzinti race hatered is only allowed to flower completely in an environment where there are no negative consequences for it.
A great place for the Kzinti to end up is the WYN Cluster, where they plot an eventual War of Return...
John,
One way to balance the Terrans will be the Paravians. Also, there's potentially the matter of 'growing too large to effectively control the entire region' aspect. In other words, perhaps at about the point the Terrans reach the "real universe's borders", they spend as much time putting down rebellions/piracy as they do on expansion.
A few thoughts.
*The older thread in which alternate universes were debated can be found here, if anyone's interested.
*There might be a few things to bear in mind, if the point of divergence is at the time of Surak.
One - according to PD Romulans (and the Vulcan preview in Captain's Log 37) the competition between Kya-yai and Kiay ri-ha-nai was in many respects a regional one, as well as one which (seemingly) was related to the amount of psionics to be found in some parts of Vulcan than in others.
Those areas with high levels of psionic ability, and were thus more able to do things like mind-meld, seemed more open to Surak's argument than not.
Now, perhaps in this reality, the 'main' point of divergence - the ascendancy of Kiay ri-ha-nai - was in part due to a number of previous points of divergence, in terms of which parts of Vulcan were more, or less, devastated in previous collapses.
Maybe by the time of Surak and Taneak, the 'mundane' population was the majority, relative to the psionics.
Thus, it would be the psionic minority who would be forced into exile.
Two - PDR indicates that the Rihansu title is one used by the followers of Kiay ri-ha-nai, as opposed to being tied directly to one homeworld over another.
So, it's possible that the 'Romulan' term could be used for the Vulcans on Vulcan - leaving the other term for those who settled on what in the other timeline would be called Romulus.
Three - A Vulcan Empire which adopted Kiay ri-ha-nai at the time of Surak would have conquered the various other home world in its vicinity, such as Earth, Andoria and Rigel IV. However, its ability to expand beyond the home hex would have been severely hampered by the presence of the Old King empire.
The Vulcan data in CL37 states that the Old Kings had an outpost in the nearby Zeta Reticuli system, though for whatever reason never tried to either conquer or co-opt the historical Vulcans.
Further, one of the reasons that the historical Romulans fled 'east' was precisely to avoid running into such a large-scale empire, according to PDR.
Now, if it's assumed that the Old Kings continued to ignore the Vulcan Empire, for whatever reason, and that the Vulcans weren't suicidal enough to provoke the wrath of the Old Kingdom, there would be a significant limit on the Vulcans' progress in terms of trying to expand outwards.
So, if the Vulcans of this era did expand, they would have to go into the 'eastern' half of the map. This would still take them towards the Orions, or further afield to the likes of the Tellarites and Skoleans, but away from, say, the Cygnans.
It might take them a long time to get as far as those three species, however. Perhaps, with the exception of the exile colony arks, this Vulcan's non-tactical warp technology was not much better than that of the pre-ISC Five Races. If that were the case, it would take several centuries' worth of effort to expand as far as, say, the 'modern' Fed-Romulan border.
This would also make it much harder to concentrate forces on a given front - which might explain how the Orions might be able to hold out in their Enclave prior to the Tactical Warp era.
Four - ideas and policies can evolve over time.
One idea I had was in light of the example shown in the background of the series Andromeda. In that reality, the Vedran species built a massive trans-galactic domain called the Vedran Empire, which was facilitated by their early discovery of FTL technology. However, the Vedrans would eventually be obliged to compromise, in order to avoid a full-scale uprising - thus bringing the constitutional monarchy of the Systems Commonwealth into being.
Perhaps, in the two and a half millennia between the foundation of the first Vulcan empire and the departure of the Old Kings, a similar kind of internal re-structuring brought other species, such as Terrans and Andorians, to positions of prominence within the Empire/Commonwealth/Alliance/etc?
That way, by the time of the 'modern' era, the 'new' empire would be different enough from the old Vulcan regime to facilitate treating them as, essentially, two separate eras.
Plus, it's worth bearing in mind that this kind of alliances need not shun expansion. Historically, the Mæsron Alliance was founded on the premise of joint expansion between its three founding member races, and only formally abandoned that principle with the founding of the 'New' Alliance post-Collapse.
*The idea of having the Klingons ally with the Kzintis, as opposed to the Lyrans, is something I touched on in the Fed and Empire scenario published in CL38. However, in that scenario, the assumption was that the nature of the various empires was not so different to the 'norm' - and throwing in things like the Carnivons and Peladine had not been part of the equation.
Although, in either case, they could well be...
*ISC.
Back in the old thread, I had tried to come up with a kind of timeline which a 'looking glass' Concordium would follow - although in light if Y2, I would have to try and re-write it from scratch.
Even so, there are a number of ideas I wanted to explore.
The founding of the historical Concordium was in part a response to the Space Boar stampedes, which in turn were the result of overly-careless resource-extraction practices.
Perhaps in this timeline, the Five Races were more careful in terms of colonising outwards, and thus never triggered these stampedes.
Instead, they might continue expanding, and run into the first long-range Paravian raiders.
This might see the Five Race ships trying to fight off W-era Paravians, but only slowly coordinating their efforts. (The Paravian home territory would be too far away to facilitate more than sporadic raids, plus the birds are focussed mainly on Gorn-killing.)
The first shift would come with the onset of Y-era technology. In order to try and counter Paravian Y-ship raids, the Five Races might be driven to develop the first common hulls - akin to how several European countries co-operate to build the Eurofighter.
They might even let these new ships patrol the home 'province'.
However, perhaps the size of the new fleet was kept relatively small, and the governments less willing to give up their racial designs entirely.
(Maybe there are a few potential Y-upgrades for this reality's Five Race ships? Even just engine-wise.)
Gradually, though, the impetus to unite, and the march of technology (which the ISC would now have a reason to pursue more vigorously than they did historically) would lead to the TL12 fleet arriving in Y127, and the ISC in general adopting the kind of campaign rules seen in Y2's (YR13.01), both for new ships and for upgrades of older ones.
Thus, the pre-refit TL12 ISC ships would get to have their full Middle Years, rather than the shorter period of deployment seen historically.
This Concordium would not have had the century or more of peace to allow for the political motivation for the Pacification to mature, so no Pacification in this era.
(Depending on how things go contact-wise, they might even offer membership to the Gorns and exile-Vulcans - maybe even with the kind of autonomy deal the historical Baduvai offered the Uthiki, or the Mæsron Alliance offered the FRA in Y209. Whether they would accept is, of course, another matter...)
However, even leaving the Paravian, exile-Vulcan and Gorn issues to one side, I'd really want to make the most out of the ISC's bordering the Void.
Perhaps the Souldra, for whatever reason, increase their interest in this side of the galaxy more than they did historically - and either forego the Omega invasion entirely, or split their resources between both Octants.
The TL12 ISC would find itself on the front line of a Souldra assault - and might even run into the Void-crossing Loriyill Splinter Collective in the course of events.
(Back to F&E, I had started a thread for a scenario called Void Storm, which I intended to try and simulate a Souldra invasion of the historical ISC. This would be somewhat different, but not too much so, perhaps.)
Also, I had a few ideas regarding how early this ISC might uncover the RTN, and thus be able to put the Andromedans somewhat off-balance, but even having no Pacification might make it easier for the Concordium to fight that eventual war.
*Finally, for now, one thing I wanted to clarify was the kind of knock-on effect that certain Alpha planets and species would have further afield, such as in Omega.
For one, the issue of what kind of Omega-Paravian presence there would be might do with being clarified, given the role that species goes on to play over in that Octant.
Also, instead of having Aurora III be the first world brought over, I was wondering if PX123 (the ISC system which, historically, was brought over to the FRA in Y178) could be the first to go over in this era.
My idea was that this world could be called Concordia, and be intended as a showpiece model colony, for all Five Races to settle together - only to have to become its own power after being whisked out of the ISC.
This power would be the one to play the role that the Aurorans played historically, not least in terms of affecting the development of the New Alliance.
And, eventually, Vulcan and Klingon worlds could be brought over, and help form a Federal Republic of Concordia!
As far as a product goes, I do not see any of those going anywhere in Captain's Log.
What I do see is ONE self-contained alternate-history "Reflection Universe" setting book. This would have...
1. History article.
2. Some new SSDs, maybe.
3. Some new rules, maybe.
4. Some SFB scenarios with FC conversion data.
5. An F&E scenario.
6. A couple of pages of notes to PD GMs.
7. Some fiction.
8. Maybe a tactics article or two.
What you guys need to do is...
A. Get a consensus on a single alternate universe history, not 17 of them.
A-subpoint-A. Avoid letting one person whose fingers never get tired and who just keeps typing and typing and typing and typing decide what that history is going to be.
B. Get that alternate history into a timeline form, with annotations for what new rules and SSDs would be needed, as well as what scenarios would be written.
B-subpoint-A: Get Petrick and myself to sign off on that history.
C. Start creating the scenarios, SSDs, and other articles.
The Klingon Empire argues against you.
Going lengthwise, the "real world" klingon empire is every bit as spread out as the Federation is, just not as wide. The Klinks don't seem to have trouble at their top/bottom extremes.
Why should the Terrans have problems that haven't been seen in the "real" world?
Would Terran ships:
1) Need Security stations?
2) Have chances for mutiny?
John:
First of all, I do like your concept of the Wyn Cluster holding the Kzinti remnants. My only fear would be that they might not have the economic base to build a fleet to recover their entire territory. Although if they timed their return for AFTER ambushing a large force that went into the Wyn Cluster it might work.
As for the Klingons...
Well, they _did_ lose the Vudar. ;) Though that's debateable.
A comparison using number of hexes from the F&E map (at the start of the General War) may be helpful.
Assuming the Feds control the Orion enclave, they have 264 hexes.
The Klingons control 135 hexes.
That gives the Feds almost twice as much territory to control. If they have pressure (even just the threat of potential invasion) from the Paravians, assuming the Paravians end up at the same approximate size as the Gorn empire, that diverts a fair amount of effort from the West.
I'm not saying that the Terrans couldn't do it. I honestly don't know. But the real 'real world' (ie, our world) tends to argue that large autocratic empires rarely work out very well, particularly if they try to control populations from a large number of ethnic backgrounds and beliefs.
That said, I also like the idea that the Klingons might be the 'mediators' of an alliance against the Terrans, and even the thought of the Carnivons allying with the Lyrans but only if they don't fight together. WWII had a precendent in many of the Axis minor powers (Romanians, Hungarians, etc).
Gary: Interesting thoughts, particularly on the early Vulcan era. I'm still desperately trying to get my hands on all things SFU, but I prioritize SFB, then CL, and then PD & F&E. So unfortunately I don't have access to all the background info I'd like!
I would like to point out by the way that I'm greatly enjoying this conversation. I also like playing devil's advocate and debating so perhaps I come off stronger than would be the case if this were a real world conversation where tone and body language helps provide context.
And whether Steve was referring to me or not, I'm aware that I like to 'type'. I hope I haven't been too 'railroading' in all this, I think the alt-Universe elements that have been 'agreed' (and I use 'agreed' very loosely) upon have changed a great deal from where I would have taken it had I just been doing this all myself.
Taking a cue though from Steve's last message, I'll step back for a bit.
This is why I suggested that each race be it's own strategic opposite (yet still war like, no pacifists in the Reflection Universe please).
SVC had already said this would be one product. Just changing ONE race at a time inherantly means multiple products. Each race needs to explore how it might do things differently. I also think so basic changes in alliances might be cool.
Take the Klinogns for instance. They might become a multi-race union consisting of the Klingon Empire, the Kzinti Dominion, and parts of conquered Lyran space. Lyrans and Carivons have no agression pacts and ally against the Star Collition. The Hydrans met the Vudar very early and allied with them and share space on the galactic edge. The Tholians took space from the Hydran/Vudar Corporation and were force to take a more agressive approach to securing space in the MWG.
On the other side, the Gorns have fought long and hard against the Paravians (the sun snake was killed by the Paravians) and the enslaved Romulans finaly break free of Paravian rule when the Vulcan Empire first make contact.
The Vulcan Empire falls due to a Earth coup and many vulcans retreat to Romulan space. The Earth Empire fights regular skirmishes over an undefined border with the Klingons, bitterly hates the Kzinti (made worse when a Kzinti nobel presents a human for dinner to the EE amassador. "Hmmm, this is delicious. What is it?" "I'm glad you like it. It is one of the prisoners we are now returning to you.")
All in all, everyone exploits different tactics and strategies and yet...
Everyone is Kung Fu fighting...
The ISC you ask? Why they are a full on expansionist empire that lays in on the Paravians and Romulans after capturing a Paravian scout.
Orions?? They are still pirates but are equally run by the Andorian Rebelion. The Orions are a bit more "corporate" and find dealing with the Hydran/Vudar Corporation to be good business.
While I think this sort of history would work, my point is the approach.
Having the aVulcans rise too early is a massive problem. Rather than try to deal with it, just avoid it. The aVulcans simply have a nasty civil war after the aRomulans leave. Knocks them back to prestellar technology until such time as the story needs them to reemerge. Nice. Done. There is no reason to make it more complicated than is needed.
As far as Omega stuff, I don't know what any of that means. I was assuming the idea of a "mirror" of the Alphans was to focus on the Alphans. If this is supposed to be an excuse to bring Omega into Alpha, then I am sorry for missing that memo.
Speaking of shutting up, I apologize right now for posting too much. I was trying to advance some ideas I liked, but mostly I was trying to get ideas out there that I thought sounded interesting. However, I will take SVC's hint and go away for a while ...
Finally, as one last thought, since this is supposed to be a "one-size-fits-all", perhaps Loren was right after all. How fair is it to only let the Federation and Vulcnas have any fun? Maybe all of the empires should be replaced with weirdly transformed versions of themselves ...
Loren:
The Lyrans and Carnivons would have to find a way to get over that whole irrational-hate thing to be able to do anything other than try to kill each other.
(Historically, outside of the WYN Cluster, the only time any two of the Leopard Kings' descendants fought on the same side was in Operation Unity - and they were still kept apart from each other on the various expedition routes!)
And as far as completely warping everything, I'd say that there are ways of giving a power a wholly new role, and outlook, without completely throwing out what makes them who they are in the historical timeline.
The version of the ISC I offered would be very different to the one seen historically, but would still (in my view) have enough on offer to make them interesting without having to turn them into yet another set of raving imperialists.
Mike:
However long you want to delay the rise of the Kiay ri-ha-nai Vulcan, you can still use the 'short range, unreliable' NTW trick used to keep the ISC Five Races in the same province for two hundred years to limit the expansion rate of their empire - even before you factor in the Old King roadblocks to the west.
The only factions I mentioned as wanting to introduce to the ISC side of the Octant directly are the Souldra and Loriyill - which are each quite apart from the norm of those shown in the Omega modules.
While the Void makes travel for most Alpha or Omega powers virtually impossible, the Souldra's main base of operations lies within the Void itself! Right there on the ISC's doorstep.
They are a race of dark-energy beings, using crystalline ships to invade our galaxy, and using deadly Shards to drain the life force of ship crews, colonies, and at their worst entire ecosystems.
While the historical Souldra focussed their efforts at trying to invade Omega, they could just as well have decided to invade the ISC Distant Zone instead.
In contrast, the Loriyill - a species of faerie-like ancients who are the Souldra's nemesis - actually launched their own full-scale expedition into the Void, in order to destroy the Souldra facilities at their Black Sun. They were also fighting across Omega to try and help stop the younger races from being annihilated - but even they couldn't save everyone.
If the Souldra in this timeline go after the ISC, the Loriyill might have a reason to cross the Void after them, and a need to try and launch an assault on the Black Sun in order to halt the invasion in its tracks.
The other thing I wrote about is, at most, something which could be a footnote in an alt-universe timeline - and I am not suggesting that the bulk of Omega empires, such as the Trobrin or Mæsrons, somehow find a way to cross the Void in force themselves.
(The only races I'd suggest to even make visits in ISC space could be the Bolosco and Iridani - each of whom could perhaps go over the Energy Barrier and dive back 'down' into the galaxy over Concordium space. But that's it.)
As the likes of the Andromedans are published in Alpha modules, but find ways to cause no end of mayhem in other settings, I'd argue that the Souldra and Loriyill could, potentially, have cause to encounter an alternate universe version of the ISC.
Is that such a bad thing to ask?
Having the aVulcans rise too early is a massive problem.
Huh? How so? Why can Vulcans have decided that the logical thing to do is to subjucate the illogical races (and maybe teach them logic), subjugating humans from the get go.
It's an alternative universe.
Gary: Same conclusion as I mentioned to Mike. Whats to say they ever had a racial hatered. The Lyrans seem to be able to get along with alien species (I.e., the Klingons), why couldn't it be explained by something like,the first encounter was during a Kzinti/Carnivon battle and the Lyrans and Carnivons ally ever since (I didn't suggest before that they were bestus buddies, just mutually nonagressive by pact.
I'd also caution against trying to tie Omega with Alpha at this point. It definately makes the product too big IMO. If one Omega race gets in, all of them will (players will demand to know what happens with all the other Omega races).
Another idea to add to my above ideas is that the Tholians and Seltorians arrive together having been kicked out of M81 by another race.
Alliance changes are nice, but some are going to result in different ships too.
If Romulans absorb the Gorns, the result is warp-driven romulans far sooner than in Prime universe. They may never develop the cloak.
If the WYN cluster is a kzinti operation, then the ships that come out might look like a "fishy" kzinti or Kzinti-Orion hybrid design.
We can't hand everybody new ships. A lot will have to plsy "stock" ships from the Prime universe in order to keep the product manageable.
A change like adding Security stations to Feds or remocing them from klingons would be too trivial to warrant an empire's worth of new SSDs.
We'd need to set a limit. Three or four new races' worth of SSDs. No more.
Loren,
THAT might make a good line of products.
"What If..."
What if the Federation went bad?
What if the Seltorans lost their war against the Tholians?
What if they both got kicked out, say by the Andros?
Quote:Huh? How so? Why can Vulcans have decided that the logical thing to do is to subjucate the illogical races (and maybe teach them logic), subjugating humans from the get go.
It's an alternative universe.
OK, I have to respond to this.
Sure it is an alternative universe. But I thought it was supposed to be inspired by the "Mirror! Mirror!" episode. If so, it has to be *recognizable*. If it is built from whole cloth, then why make it "alternate". Just make it a new galaxy and be done with it. As I have said before, one of the main underpinnings of the "Mirror! Mirror!" episode is that "Everything is different; everything is the same". What you are proposing is "Everything is different; everything is different".
If the Vulcans come out early and just start conquering, by the time we get to Y170, there is nothing recognizable in the Alpha sector. That isn't "alternative" that is "whole new setting".
Instead, I strongly believe it is absolutely necessary that the same actors be present. They will be different (Federation vs Terran Empire), they may be somewhat rearranged (aRomulan/Gorn Republic). Regardless, the pieces are recognizable. There would be a 4PW. There would be a General War. There would be an ISC War. There would be an Andromedan invasion. The cadence of history is the same, but how it happens is all different.
OK, let's back up: Is this setting intended to be reminicent of the "Mirror! Mirror!" episode? Or is this just going to be some hyperviolent new setting that only borrows some names from the SFU, with bonus points for dragging other favorite settings into Alpha?