Loren:


The difference is that the Klingons, Hydrans, Terrans, Korlivilar and others are not descended from the Leopard Kings, the way that Lyrans, Kzintis and Carnivons are.


Whatever it is that causes it, be it some kind of intentional genetic code compelling the descendant species to kill each other (so that the strongest may survive?) or some kind of accidental quirk or flaw in the shared genetic legacy, there is something... deeper to the hatreds than can be explained through things like politics.


And it's in things like politics and so forth that I'd want to see an alternate universe form - not a full-on re-writing of what makes each species exist.


(For me, the point of the TV mirror universe was to show what we might become - how choices made, wars won or lost or policies taken or not taken might be the difference between a positive future and a nightmarish one. Even the Terrans of both universes are the same biologically - but vary widely politically. That kind of 'what might have been' to me is far more compelling.)


And when it comes to Omega, I might point out that if you want to include the Andromedans in an Omega or Magellanic campaign, it might require you to at least buy modules C2 and C3, but does not necessarily lead to a full-on Alpha/Omega (or Alpha/Cloud) crossover.

Even Operation Unity only happens in Y200-202.


(And to go for a crossover closer to your own neck of the woods, you don't need to know about the Neo-Tholians or Seltorians in order to be able to play the Middle Years Tholian fleet - indeed they were first published with no data on either, or confirmation that the home galaxy was M81.)


The Souldra are alien enough, and the Loriyill reclusive enough, that dealing with either or both would not have to lead to 'and what are they doing back in...'


Mike:


Other than there being an Andromedan Invasion, I'd argue that the nature of earlier conflicts can be up for grabs - and I would still say that there does not have to be an ISC Pacification Campaign.

There are plenty of things for the Concordium to do, and have done, without one.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 05:32 pm: Edit

SVC just said it would be the Reflections Universe and that it would be an alternative universe, but not Mirror, Mirror. So there is no requirement that "Everything is different, everything is the same". There no requirement that it not either. But that guideline isn't the end all in any case.

As to being recognisable, what's to recognise that covers anything other than Vulcans serve on starships, not necessarilly always in command. The set up I suggested as an example set up does nothing to counter anything in the Mirror, Mirror episode. It may go against the Into a Mirror Darkly episode of Enterprise sure. I'm not sure of SVC's opinion on having that episode influance any of his products, but I'm guessing TOS remains the core timeline (of which Enterprise is not apart of because of Picards "First Contact").

For anything SFU the primary source materials is, itself and ST:TOS. I posted nothing that contradicts the TOS episode.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Loren,

I don't really care about what was done on DS9 or Enterprise. I hated that DS9 turned Spock into a pansy (apparently ••••• is censored). (The two episodes were fun, I just didn't like the premise.) And I never bothered to watch Enterprise past the first episode. So, I am not using them to judge the ideas. Quite frankly, I am sure my ideas would completely violate both, too.

Actually, I am not even trying to agree with the TOS episode. I am sure what I proposed produces something that completely disagrees with it. No, what I am trying to work with is what I considered to be interesting ideas behind it. They took a lot of effort to show how similar it was despite the drastic differences. If none of that matters, then none of that matters. That was just a feature I liked.

And by "recognizable", I am NOT talking about the episodes. I am talking about the "real" SFU. I think it is important that the "Reflections Universe" actually reflect the existing universe. If everything is different, and nothing is the same, where is the "reflection"? What is even the point?

But I can always be wrong. Or outvoted. Or both. I don't need, or even expect, people to agree with me. That's fine. Like I have already said, if the point is to create a hyperviolent nihilistic universe, just let me know. I am not trying to be a roadblock, and I am more than willing to go away.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 06:03 pm: Edit

Mike,


If you ever give any of the Mirror Universe books a shot, you might see a very different take on mirror-Spock.

In particular, the story The Sorrows of Empire - which will be re-released as a full-length novel in its own right later this year.


(The argument there is that, even with all of the reforms that Spock tried to introduce, the long-term momentum of history was working against them - and would have brought their civilisation crashing down forever. Or, at least, so was the conclusion that mirror-Spock came to. So, he believed that by setting a new plan in motion - one where the fall of Terran space happened earlier, but in a way through which the seeds of a future rebellion against the Alliance would be sown - the long-term goals of cultural survival and wide-ranging freedom could be followed. Mirror-Spock's choice was a terrifying one, but made in the context of an even worse fate that would have come to pass had he not done so.)


It might not be canon, but it's one hell of a story.


But as noted earlier, I do agree with the general principle of reflecting what is in the 'normal' timeline - even if the point on the spectrum I'd sit on may vary from others in that regard.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Mike,

OK, you make an interesting point. My mind set has been an alternative universe that explore oposites so that each empires ships can be explored tactically in different ways. To me it was about SFB game play. Getting to play Feds and an offensive race, or how Klingons and Kzinti would fight together (yikes!).

But I see your point about it being a Reflection product; looking into a warped mirror, so to speak?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 06:15 pm: Edit

So I now see two basic paths here that we could ask SVC to guide us on.

A) A complete alternative history where strategic goals and alliances are different. (basic history is the same up to Y0 with the possible exception of the Tholians.)

B) A Reflection of the SFU where things particulars are different, but traditional histories remain largely intact.

Would this be accurate? Suggestion as to a more accurate wording?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Loren,

I think that captures the crux of the issue quite nicely.

I do want to note that I am fine with it either way, even though I (obviously) prefer the "Reflection" option. An answer to this is definitely required to make any sort of progress.

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 06:52 pm: Edit

One item to note here is that Steve views this as a single product. I suggest that this be kept in mind going forward.

If I were to buy such a product (as opposed to creating one), I personally would look for a coherent alternate history with a relatively sharp focus.

Yeah... we could bring the Omegans in. We could completely change the ISC along with changing one or two other key elements (Surak dying, and/or the Paravians surviving via CL#28). You could do scenarios from the early years, middle year conflicts, a General War, the ISC/Andromedan conflicts, what happens when the Selts arrive, etc.

This to me would be a very watered down product. I'm not against focusing on one or two time periods within the Reflection Universe (my own preference would be somewhere in the Early Years and General War) with maybe one or two scenarios/stories/etc set in the X-ships and later era.

Also, I think the product would need at least some 'crunch' (ie, new gameplay material), which is why I like the General War Carnivons and the modifications to the Gorn/Romulans.

While I'll be taking a break from posting Universe ideas, I felt it might be useful to open a discussion on the constraints of a one shot product. As always, my comments are opinion only and no one should take them as me saying that everyone should feel the same. These comments are merely to continue what I feel to have been a most productive and stimulating discussion.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 06:55 pm: Edit

I agree that the Vulcans can't rise so early that humanity is unrecognizable. I also agree that we have to be careful for legal reasons to make it clear that this is NOT the Mirror, Mirror Universe...it is, rather, another, perhaps similar, parallel universe with an "evil Federation" theme.

I propose that Old King interference prevents the aVulcans from expanding beyond their system, then when the Kings disappear the Vulcans rapidly expand. In this case Earth would develop similarily until First Contact.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Something else to consider...

What if the "Surak is defeated and the Romulans and Vulcans essentially swap places" thing is a bit too obvious? I'm sure lots of people have thought of that. Can we come up with a divergence point that is different, yet still has the same result?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 07:07 pm: Edit

John:


That might be an option, perhaps - letting the Old Kings be the brakes on a militant Vulcan's expansion, even in the same hex.


When it comes to the place-swapping, there still aren't many places where it has actually been done - and certainly not in the TV mirror universe.

There's plenty of scope for it to happen here.


Alternatively, what if the Vulcans weren't isolated by the Old Kings at all, but were recruits to the Old Kingdom - or at least co-opted into some kind of semi-autonomous partnership?

(In the historical timeline, the Old Kings had kept the Zoolies apart from the Klingons - and only once the Klingon Empire expanded did they realise they had once shared the same masters.)

The Old Kings themselves might have been the ones to keep the likes of Terrans and Andorians un-contacted - but by the time they departed, their legacy might have given the Vulcans who had been part of the Old Kingdom a taste for empire...


Indeed, maybe they weren't the only ones.

What if the Cygnans - who had historically been ignored by the Old Kings - were also recruits? (And maybe even ones with a legacy fleet to reach out for, as the Klingons had.)

Indeed, the Old Kings could have deliberately let one group of subjects know each other, but not the other species (Klingons-Dunkars, Vulcans-Cygnans, etc) and kept a third group individually isolated (Zoolies, etc) so that the successor empires would not realise this link until they meet as neighbouring powers.

In this case, who would be the 'true heirs of the Old Kingdom' - the Klingons, Vulcans, Cygnans, or someone else entirely?


EDIT: Actually, that leads me to another idea.


Historically, there are no minor warp-capable powers on the way between the expanding Federation and Klingon Empire. The maps show Klingon space, Federation space... and nothing in between.

However, what if, during the course of the Early/Middle Years at least, there were a number of smaller powers, which could have inherited their warp capability from derelict Old King technology the way the Klingons did?

Cygnus would be a fine candidate, as could any of the major members found in the 'western' Federation, or 'eastern' Empire.

These could, one way or another, be gobbled up by the bigger powers eventually - but would make the earlier eras more interesting.

(When it comes to what their ships might look like, one could either use civilian or National Guard ships... or maybe come up with a couple of Old King-derived hulls, with option mounts for whatever heavy weapons, if any, the locals used. Essentially, show the ships the Klingons recovered and used before building the first D1, if they were converted to Tactical Warp. And those ships don't have to be the final say on what a true Old King fleet looks like - see the difference between the police cutter-derived Archaeo-Tholians and the Neo-Tholian ships of the Home Galaxy. Alternatively, maybe they all act as prime markets for buying Orion-hull ships?)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 07:39 pm: Edit

John,

There is no particular reason to swap the Romulans and Vulcans other than it was an attempt to help keep it mirror-ish while still being different.

Quite frankly, it is pretty obvious that Vulcan's history did NOT change in the TV episode. Vulcans were dispassionate and logical. That means the Vulcans in M!M! were Surak's heirs, not renamed Romulans.

The swap was to provide a useful divergence. If it is not useful, don't use it. You are, after all, the Vulcan/Romulan expert. If there is something better, I am sure you have already figured it out.

On a similar note, if you are going to write this, I think the best bet would be for the rest of us to just stand down and let you write it. You are the one with the skins on the wall. The rest of us are just noise.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Mike: well I don't think anyone said I would write it...I have some vague ideas, but that's all, and I think SVC would want me to tackle Orion Pirates first.

I was just trying to participate in the discussion.

I also like Gary's idea of perhaps the Old Kings doing things differently than in the regular timeline. It would be another possible point of divergence with all sorts of ramifications.

By Sean O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:00 am: Edit

I prefer the "warped mirror" idea of Mike West's as well.

What if the Old Kings didn't disappear, but the Klingons rebelled against them and took over the Old Kings' ships? Getting them into space a lot sooner...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 11:37 am: Edit

You need to minimize the number of changes (not necessarily just one, but not 17) and then see what logically flows from those few changes.

Here is one you guys are already looking into: Surak dies in traffic accident, Roms dominate Planet Vulcan and the vulcans leave and go find Romulus and Remus. Vulcan Empire replaces Romulan empire (not as expansionist, meets Gorns and makes nice). Romulans run Vulcan and send spies to help Hitler take over Earth, form alliance (Romulans-on-Vulcan, Nazi humans, Andorians, Orions; those pansy Rigellians and Arcturians will go along with anything, the Alpha-Centauran babes will play along, and the Cygnans would sign onto anything that freed them from the Kzintis. Militant Fed ships have more guns, fewer labs, basically just getting the wartime refits earlier. With "militant Feds" pushing the Kzintis around, they might have allied with the Klingons (also being shoved around by militant Feds), leaving the Lyrans to ally with the Hydrans (and leaving the Lyrans to find something else to eat, which opens another door).

You don't have to do that one (although I would approve that one, as it is pretty coherent) but the point is that you need to cascade from one single event.

I'm about to just declare that one THE idea and let you go from there, but we'll see if anybody salutes that flag.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Well that would fit with a Trekkish story fragment I've had in my mind for ages...

Federation starship comes upon a spatial anomaly...another crippled "Federation" ship comes through the anomaly, badly damaged, crew dead. The anomaly closes, so you can't go back into it.

The wrecked ship is closely examined...it is similat to star fleet designs but not identitical. Bodies of the crew are human, vulcan, etc.

They eventually realize this ship is from an alternate universe when they notice that the dedication plaque on the bridge says something like (in German) "Starship Conquerer, NCC-1700, constructed by ReichsWerke Hermann Goring" (The Hermann Goring Werke in our reality was a huge Nazi industrial consortium from WW2). The computer records are messed up pretty bad, but they are abls to decipher enough of the records to determine that this ship came from a universe where the Nazis won and dominated Earth, in partnership with the alt-Vulcans.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:08 pm: Edit

I'm not too big on the Nazi thing - not least since the idea of aliens propping up the Nazis was done in the Franchise. (But then, those aliens were not doing all that great a job of helping the Nazis win...)


Maybe the Vulcans could show up in the run up to World War I instead?

Rather than pick just one side, they could perhaps offer the various Great Powers a 'grand bargain', through which they could have a joint stake in any future colonial conquests.

Rather than fight out the two World Wars on Earth, the Great Powers could each contribute to a 'Terran League' of forces used as part of the wider Vulcan Empire.

However, despite this off-world co-operation, there might still be lasting tensions, unresolved disputes, and perhaps even the odd on-Earth war or two...

...which could lead to a series of Vulcan-backed League 'interventions'.


Thus, rather than forming a united Earth voluntarily, this version of humanity would have its emerging planetary authority be a kind of fait accompli.

By Joe Gallagher (Draxdreadfeare) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:27 pm: Edit

I agree that between Patterns of Force and the Enterprise stuff the Nazi thing has been done. Fortunately, Earth's history provides us with plenty of unpleasant dictators whom the Romulans could have developed an affinity towards. Avoiding the 20th century is not a bad idea either.

How about Napoleon? Imagine a star-spanning empire dominated by the French... now that's playing the idea of an opposite universe to the hilt!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:32 pm: Edit

SVC's platform works for me OK. I'd still like to see the Paravians alive and well, kicking butt in the east.

Romulus Vulcans would probably ally with the Gorns instead of being bitter enemies.


If the Klinks and Kzinti ally, would things have gone differently on Slirdaria? Seems to me that the Klinks would have brought in Kzinti ground troops in the initial struggle. Or would that have happened before the two allied?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:34 pm: Edit

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How about Napoleon? Imagine a star-spanning empire dominated by the French... now that's playing the idea of an opposite universe to the hilt!

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By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:47 pm: Edit

I am not strong on the Nazi thing. However, we don't need to accentuate that. How about the Nazis do win, but over the centuries they lose the swastika and the racism, but keep the fascism and militarism?

Then, we get the militarism and aggression we want, but don't all of the baggage I am sure we don't want. Making German the common language would be good, though. There can't be any racism, though, or the multi-national Empire won't work.

And, since what SVC has proposed is basically identical to what I was advancing, I think it is pretty obvious that I buy in. ;)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:50 pm: Edit

How about the Romulans help kill Hitler and the Nazis proceed under a different leader, one who is more tollerant of racial diversity (because he is aware of aliens, he sees all humans as humans). Still rigid and militaristic, racism is minimized among humans (but is still present regarding non-humans).

A new state religion replaced all others legally; although many practiced their old religions for a century or two.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:50 pm: Edit

You'd still get Germany as a prominent presence in the League - but more Kaiser than Fuhrer.


Say what you like about Wilhelm II, he wasn't Hitler.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Mike and I posted at the same time... great minds Mike...

I think we could keep a diversity of European languages, and Russia would be strong too. I suspect that a new language would appear. I don't think the Nazis would have been able to full take over the USA and english would remain a strong influence. The USA would still have been a powerful ecconomic force on Earth and you'd have a East/West division for a long time until the space age (you might even still have a nuclear war over the Middle East with a peace brokered by Romulans before the whole world is destroyed.)

So the resulting language would be like english but with more german influances than what we have now.

Ultimately, you still have to have something that is Federation Standard for all worlds to communicate with, and that would be something none of us speak now (which is probably the same in any universe version).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 01:55 pm: Edit

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Mike and I posted at the same time... great minds Mike...

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