Alternately, the Lyrans and Kzinti discover that they DOn'T hate each other after all.

Kzinti saves Lyran planet from Carnivons. Slowly the 2 empires unite.

So the Klinks would be motivated to hook up with the Feds.

Perhaps Vudar and hydrans also ally.

Roms, Gorn and Paravians all ally to make the Western Bloc.

Then you'd have a South East Bloc, a North East bloc, Center bloc, and West with the usual Tholian antisocials...

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Gary: Your ideas hang together nicely as far as I can tell... My only concern would be the watering down of the project that telling that story would cause. My personal preference (not necessarily anyone else's and if consensus is to tell a majorly different ISC story while adding in Omegans, I'll concede the point) is to focus the SFB/Fed Commander/F&E tie ins to one period in the Early Years and the General War with maybe a couple of scenarios set in the X-ship era. Please note that whenever I say 'personal preference', I mean from the point of view as a player, not as a member of the 'idea team' for this product.

Remember that Steve has said this would be one product that would have to have tie ins to SFB,FC,F&E, and PD (I know I'm forgetting something here..) I think a tight internal focus rather than a kitchen sink one would benefit the project. I'm not even sure adding both the Paravians and Carnivons while changing up the Vulcan/Gorn relationship might not be too much but at least their relationships would be fundamental to the new General War.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 06:41 pm: Edit

To be honest, if my idea for the ISC is watering anything down, I can't see it.


Most of the ideas I've seen floating around make no mention of the ISC at all - and the idea I put forward is still (relatively) self-contained enough to let whatever shape the rest of the Octant will take to do so without too much trouble.


Now, if the ultimate decision will be to have an Early or Middle Years ISC be a far more prominent player than that (in terms of whether or not the Paravians or others fight full-scale wars with them) then fair enough - but that's not the impression I'm getting from a lot of the talk here.


And I did note that if the Souldra (and/or Loriyill) arrived in force, the fight would be in ISC territory, and thus not spill over into the rest of the Octant (assuming the Souldra/Loriyill side wins) - which would still make for something unique to give the ISC to do other than repeat old tricks.


Otherwise, ISC players may end up getting very little from this alternate setting.

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Gary, I apologize as I'm pretty beat from a day of house hunting and tennis and generally running around. I'd misread something and thought that your ISC modifications would require a large number of new SSDs for the Five Races and in the later years. I'm all for providing a shakeup in the 'East' that includes new scenarios and misunderstood elements of your proposal, which on a more careful read does fit very nicely.

As a note on potential SSDs... Is there any way we could make Fighters less prominent in this universe? ;) I mean, certainly reducing the Kzintis to 'kicked off the map sometime in the Early-Middle Years until the General War' could have a huge influence there as they were the ones to develop the dedicated Carrier concept... In fact, that could be one thing that lets them regain a lot of their territory if they pop up in the middle of the General War from the Wyn cluster or their home colonies.

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Mike Grafton: Your idea could work. Oddly I think Paravians joining with the Gorn would be less likely than Lyran/Kzinti from what I recall about the two 'hatreds'.

I personally (standard caveat from above) prefer a more chaotic early history/General War with the 'Coalition' slowly being formed, some members hating each other, by the Klingons. But again, the consensus may be otherwise.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 07:28 pm: Edit

For my part, I should clarify - the way I envisioned the ISC history would mean that no new ship designs would be needed, with the exception of ships that would be candidates for Y3 anyway (like the Five Race WDNs and additional Y-era Navy ships) - and would thus not need to be published here.

In theory, one could give the odd Five Race ship bigger Y-era engines, but to be honest they'd be just as well off switching to the unified fleet by then anyway.


Thanks for the second run-through, though!


One way of cutting down on fighters might be to focus scenarios in eras where fighters would be less of an issue.


It's not until the Middle Years come to an end that you see a large-scale adoption of fighters and carriers in the historical Alpha Octant - so making more hay of the kind of conflicts which happen in this alternate Middle Years might be a start.


(Omega is a good example of this, actually. Their equivalent of the Middle Years has a large number of major wars which take place before the widespread adoption of fighters and carriers in that octant. If the alternate Alpha is intended to be as, um, turbulent as Omega proved historically, there may well be plenty of conflicts to write up in the pre-carrier era.)

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 09:01 pm: Edit

One minor point, looking at Steve's message earlier in the day. I'm not sure that we have to assume that the Romulan/Terran ships would have to have more weapons and less labs. Looking at a map of the Alpha Sector from Y1, there's a lot more 'empty' space around Earth/Vulcan which would still put a premium on exploration.

The 'product' benefit is that you wouldn't have to have too many new SSDs. Perhaps more Early Year Romulan ships and maybe some 'competing' Romulan designs until they realize that for whatever reason, Humans are more natural ship builders. New SSDs could focus on the Carnivons, Paravians and the Gorn/Vulcan ships with a smattering of other races.

I'd be just as interested in seeing a whole new line of Human/Romulan ships. I'm just tossing it into the debate.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 09:42 pm: Edit

Bear in mind that the saucer-and-nacelle ships are not necessarily Terran ship designs - they are supposed to be 'Star Fleet' hulls.


Similarly, the unified ISC ships may have their primary shipyards at Veltrassa, but they are not 'Veltressai' hulls. They are the legacy of all five racial fleets.


I do like the idea of TL12 Vulcan-derived hulls for the Exiles, though.

Actually, if the Exiles have the phaser-1-and-special-sensor ships, maybe the Vulcan empire uses Eagle hulls as their pre-saucer ships?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 10:01 pm: Edit

An idea ship-wise:

Vulcan empire - Eagles as the sublight fleet. W-era Eagles, and maybe the first subject-race ships (Terrans etc) all phaser-photon. Saucer ships and maybe some upgraded Eagles from the Y-era on. No hawk series.

Exiles - Vulcan phaser-1 and special sensor early ships. Maybe new plasma-armed TL12 hulls following the Vulcan
design aesthetic?

Maybe the cloak could be an Orion innovation in this timeline? (Possibly due to scientists fleeing to Orion from either Vulcan or Exile space...)

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Quite possible and quite intriguing... My brain is drained from the immediately following part of this message, so I don't have much more to offer at the moment.

I'm working up a timeline as another exercise. I should have a decent cut at it done by Sunday based primarily on the earlier bits I posted. I have avoided doing much in the "-Y" (ie, before Y0) era as that seems to be under discussion by those much more qualified than myself to do the discussing.

I'm making good progress through the early years with a couple of later decision points added (specifically the General War).

I don't have access to CL#28 yet (it's on order however!)

Can anyone suggest probable dates for the Paravian 'eviction' of Gorn from their space?

As always, when it's posted it will be merely a 'discussion starter'.

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 10:10 pm: Edit

One note, the Orions will take some thought.

One idea is that the Rom/Terrans force the Orions to become sort of a 'FedEx' for their space under threat of genocide. Obviously this doesn't sit well with some, and while the majority of the population has to go along with it, other individuals set up a resistance network with bases all over the area, and eventually the Octant. During the General War, I could see them providing information to the 'Coalition' (but of course, some of them might be in the pay of the Rom/Terrans).

Obviously the development of a 'cloak' would be highly beneficial to such an endeavor.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 10:34 pm: Edit

Maybe the Orions played the same card seen in the First Fed-Rom war?

The Enclave is spared outright conquest by the outbreak of the first 'Exile War' - and is able to negotiate a favourable deal with the Empire, when offering to help tip the scales in their favour in that conflict.

So, the National Guard ships become Orion's contribution to the imperial fleet...

...and the first Pirate hulls a hidden 'insurance policy'.

Until some of them decide that crime for its own sake really does pay, that is!

By Sean O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 10:55 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

One minor point, looking at Steve's message earlier in the day. I'm not sure that we have to assume that the Romulan/Terran ships would have to have more weapons and less labs. Looking at a map of the Alpha Sector from Y1, there's a lot more 'empty' space around Earth/Vulcan which would still put a premium on exploration.

---

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 11:03 pm: Edit

As a long-time fan of the SFU, I thought I'd throw in my two-cents worth. I didn't want to add to the confusion and sent this first to Mike West, but after seeing all these other posts, decided that I would throw this out there.

If the point of divergence is a German victory (or at least a mutually agreed settlement) to end WWII, it doesn't necessarily follow that a Nazi form of world government would last. It could follow, however, that the world would become much more militaristic than it becomes in the real-SFU. The major factions might be Europe, Asia, and the Americas.

Another world war (could be limited military or mostly economic) results in the decline of Asia and a splintering of the European and American empires. The aftermath features a lack of centralized governmental control. Research groups seek for an edge to advance themselves financially. The development of practical matter-antimatter energy production and warp drive is developed in North America. First Contact is made by a Vulcan scout ship, but the Vulcans on the ship are surprised and overpowered.

The humans find themselves in possession of technology and knowledge from the Vulcan ship far in advance of what they had just developed. Along with this comes a realization that there are others "out there" who could wreck havoc on Earth. The remaining vestiges of governments on Earth come together for the mutual survival of humanity.

A Terran Space Agency (or some such organization) quickly develops warp powered ships armed to the teeth with their best available weapons (including copied tech from the Vulcan ship). The Vulcans are contacted and the overpowering of their scout ship is explained either as a misunderstanding or it is covered up as a crash. The end result is more contact between Earth and Vulcan. The Terrans' goal is to obtain as much information from the Vulcans as possible.

Because of the militaristic history of Earth, the Terrans launch into space exploration with the goal of conquest in order to protect Earth's security and humanity's survival. All other traditional human characteristics (curiosity, imitation, inventiveness, etc.) are still intact, but with an underlying substrate of militarism.

As for the Vulcans, there is no reason why a Vulcan Empire should be assumed just because Surak's logical Vulcans flee the planet Vulcan and go to Romulus. They could simply be isolationist, but still send out scout ships to see who else is out there. This might be a good way to explain why the Vulcans might be a minor partner in the Terran Empire.

Perhaps this is too much detail about Earth history, but, from my perspective, it is important to make it reasonable. Even what we saw in the TOS "Mirror, Mirror" episode does not support an idea of a Nazi controlled Earth. The SFRU (Star Fleet Reflection Universe) does not have to exactly parallel that episode (and that it might even need to have some distinctions because of Paramount), but it seems that it should at least have a reasonable explanation of how the Terran Empire has a majority of Terran-manned starships. They had no problem communicating with one another in "Mirror-Mirror."

By Charles Chapel (Ctchapel) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 11:28 pm: Edit

How about this take on the alt-SFU.

Surak takes the remnants of his factions rag-tag fleet lead by their last Battlestar to found the planets of Romulack and Remulack.

The militant faction remains in the colonies and reduce themselves to a pre-starflight culture due to civil war.

The first Romulan-Terran war happens as normal, but 40LY apart not 4000LY. Both sides burn-out and a period of Cold War settles in the capital hex.

Reapproachments begin when a "space monster", (to be name later) attacks a Vulcanius colony and the Terrans defend and defeat said monster. Realizing that both side respect Honor, Duty, & Martial Elan, an Alliance is formed.


This version is different enough but maintains a solid SFU feel without making the Terran Empire "EVIL". Think of Rome: strong millitary class with focus on duty, and Starship Troopers: Service guarenties citizenship.

As for the ships, the cultures and their experiances drive the designs. I feel that Eagles would stay in the Militant faction and the followers of Surak would used the NG ships of Vulcan.

After the Vul-Terran Empire is formed:

Would cloaking devices be developed? The reason for them no longer exist.

Would maulers be developed? Maybe but do we want
them?

On the larger Galactic-Political front I think that Carnivon are not needed into the General War period. They would be useful in driving the Kzinti off map, if that is what is wanted, but beyond that their use is limited. They get along with nobody that we know of so alliances would be difficult to arrange in a meaningful matter.

That being said If the Kzinti have their war of return against the Space Wolves,pushing back to the Klingon and VTE borders and then turning west to take the space that was occupied before the Carnivon in the Lyran Empire, it could be the Carnivons that flee into the WYN Cluster. Also the space occupied by the Kzinti would offset the gains made by the Lyrans as the LDR space would still be loyal.

Just to be clear to everyone. I tend to think of things from a F&E point of view. I am trying to keep the economic factors as close to even as I can.

The next major point of contention is the development of fighters. Hydrans start with them and the Klingons respond in kind just like in the prime universe. Now, do Hydrans give the tech to the Lyrans, like they did for the Kzinti, or do the Lyrans ask for P-G tech instead?

It is well known that Lyrans have that nasty ESG vs. drones and fighters. Do they want a tech that complicates the operations of the fleet,(fighters) or a system that improves fleet defense,(P-G)? The empires that the Lyrans are fighting the Kzinti, Carnivons, and Klingons all use some form of seeking weapon as secondary armament.

If fighters are chosen what kind of weapon would it use? Hydran weapons have drawbacks in interactions and enviroments, and drones are an enemy weapon that has poor interactions as well.
And where do the Lyrans get drone tech from? The Peladine? if the Peladine, then why not plasma?

P-G is the simplist solution and most of the LDR ships can be used as is.

VTE fighters need to be addressed as well. Without the Kzinti accords of the prime history to aide them, the VTE would need to start from scratch just like the Klingons. I do not think the VTE would pursue the historic high-low mix doctrine, and as a result no special fighters,( F-14, F-15, F-16, & F-111). An argument can be made for the A-10 & A-20 as those are photon armed, but please no P-G fighters.

Have to go now, I have more but it has to wait.

Charles Chapel

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 11:35 pm: Edit

Sean (Or is it Terry? Or both? Hmm...):

There is a precedent for that, actually. When the Mæsron Alliance fractured into civil war over in Omega, the 'good' side (the Tazol, Wallimi et al) stuck with the regular Mæsron design philosophies - but the 'bad' side (the Vulpa) were more militant.

For example, the Fire Support Cruiser - a version of the CA used mainly by the Vulpa - had its probe launcher taken out and replaced with a tachyon missile rack.

(There's no probe launcher on the Vulpa Blockade Runner - a ship heavily modified from the Mæsron destroyer - either.)


So, one could do something similar with the saucer-and-nacelle ships.


Oh, by the way - if the W-era Exiles used the Vulcan hulls from Y1 and Y2 (with phaser-1s and special sensors) and replaced the photons on the WVL and WVF with plasmas, how might the new choice of heavy weapons affect the ships' capabilities?


Mike:

Making Vulcan isolationist might be at odds with Kiay ri-ha-nai (the philosophy the historical Romulans took with them into exile) - which explicitly promotes imperial expansion as part of the 'unifying duty' of those ethnic Vulcans who sign up to it.

Also, I'd argue that this universe need not actually have a Terran-dominated Empire, let alone the same Terran Empire from the Franchise. (If they are even allowed to call it that.)

Why not have Vulcan be the capital world, even if the empire evolves to include other species, like Terrans and Orions, into places of prestige?


(In F&E terms, I'd like to have the primary shipyard be at Vulcan, not Earth.)


Plus, going with a point of divergence like John Sickels' 'Paris 1919' idea would avoid 'borrowing' from In a Franchise, Done Already.


Charles:

Interesting idea regarding the Lyrans - but if only for base defence, I'd argue that the Star Empire might still do with getting some kind of attrition unit technology.

In the Altered Alliances: 4PW scenario for F&E, I had the Lyrans get fighters instead of the Kzintis, but only the LDR got gatlings. But then, that scenario is not predicated on the kind of radical changes to the rest of the Octant being talked about here.

Actually, maybe the difference is that the Lyrans use fighters for bases, but don't build carriers. Indeed, maybe the onset of the carrier concept is stymied, by a long-term assumption that fighters were only useful for defending fixed installations, unless you were the Hydrans.

(If the Hydrans are slow to develop Stinger-2s, that might not be so hard to argue against.)

Someone would probably get around to trying the carrier thing eventually, but it would take much longer to implement all around.


So far as the western octant goes, I like the idea of giving the Vudar, Peladine and Carnivons more of a presence on-map than they got historically - either one or more of these got their act together earlier, or were left for longer by over-stretched neighbours.

One could try to balance the amount of provinces, on or off-map, to give to the three powers, in order to keep them, and their neighbours, relatively balanced.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 01:12 am: Edit

If the Roms (Vulcans) and Gorns make nice (which my original post postulated) then the ISC won't see "warfare" just Paravian raids and the Paravians might well be thought of as pirates, so the ISC won't go all peacekeeper on people. Where DO they go? Dunno.

I like the Nazis for recognition-marketability. All of this other stuff just makes me go "bleh". I couldn't care less about Napoleon or World War I. They are NOT marketable. But if Nazis are too "done" then the Vulcans (now Roms) might help the Russians (who would be more imperialistic than communistic)?

I don't see any way to fit the Vandal into this.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 05:58 am: Edit

So we're looking at either a Nazi/Terran Empire, or a Soviet/Terran Empire?

I suppose it would depend on WHEN the RomuVulcans decide to show up, and what standards they use to judge their potential clients. They might consider Hitler a bit too unstable...though their opinion may vary if they are observing the 1939 Hitler or the 1944 Hitler when they make their decision. Stalin would also be attractive as a client, but again if they are looking at the USSR in August 1941 or August 1945 would alter their point of view.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 10:40 am: Edit

If the intent was to support the USSR, that could be as easily done with Lenin in 1919 than with Stalin in 1945 - but either way, it would be a shame if missing the chance to let other powers in on the off-world act, and thus provoke a unique 'Terran' identity (Soviet-influenced or not) is cast aside for a simple 'one-side-takes-all'.


And as regarding the ISC, even if the Paravians are the only major threat on their borders - which still might lead to the odd war or few - they don't have to go anywhere.

The Souldra (and Loriyill) can come to them.


Regarding the Paravians - I don't have CL28 to hand, but I was thinking that it might be a bit too easy for them to just let them be the ones to conquer Gorn home space outright.

The main problem that the Alpha Paravians had was that, by and large, they just didn't 'do' colony-building. They sent ships ranging over a wide stretch of territory, but had a relatively light proportion of colonists, garrisons and so forth in those territories proper.

Thus, they wouldn't have had the economic base to challenge the more densely-settled Gorn Confederation - who in this timeline would not have to worry about constant Exile tension so much.

If the Sun Snake hits one of the three home systems, the blow would be severe, but would not necessarily be fatal. (Well, it would be worse if Ghdar-I was hit, taking out their primary shipyard, but would that be enough?)


What I'd propose is that the Sun Snake take out one of the three home worlds (not Ghdar-I, leaving the fleet yards intact) at a point when the Gorns were going to make a final push to eliminate the Paravian space capacity.

This would force the Gorns to concentrate on adjusting for such a loss, while letting the Paravians have enough breathing room to build their forces up again.

Further, the evidence of the Sun Snake (which, in this timeline, might have had a near-miss at Paravia?) would force the Paravians to make more of an effort to establish major colonies - while the Gorns would need more space to settle refugees, and make up for the lost EPs from the now-gone home world.

So, the Paravians would grab some bordering Gorn provinces, expand towards ISC space, and maybe take the opportunity to claim both the coreward row of provinces leading to the historical Federation border, and thus claiming access to what would have been the Gorn off-map area.

(This would look like a mirrored version of the Paravian part of the Y210 Omega map from the back cover of Module Omega 5 - which similarly has a thin line of provinces along the map edge, 'north' of Trobrin space.)

Meanwhile, the Gorns would expand westwards, perhaps reaching worlds like Skoleos (which might be built up into a new 'third homeworld' in place of the lost one) before the Vulcan/Terrans would. Also, they might step up their agreements with the Exiles, to provide a common front against the emboldened Paravians.


And now both the Paravians and Gorns would be rubbing up against the expanding Vulcan-Terran empire, too. (Plus, both would be bordering the ISC now, also.)

The Paravians would be looking to both Vulcan/Terran and ISC space to try and raid and/or conquer, while the Gorns might, out of necessity, feel a need to keep expanding, if only to keep pace with the Paravians - and thus provoke tensions with both large neighbours.

Indeed, such tensions might not make relations between the Gorns and Exiles all that smooth, either.


Also - the Omega-Paravians were notorious for launching long-range expeditions into other peoples' empires, capturing and stealing samples of technology, and trying to cart them off to their home space.

Maybe some types of technology - like, say, special sensors on Exile ships - were similarly swiped by these Paravian raiders, then carted off back to Paravia?

(That would put a premium on scenarios in which an opposing player has to stop the Paravians from carting off this or that piece of technology...)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 11:07 am: Edit

Whether using the Nazis or Soviets, who cares who the leader is? The best way to handle either is with a decapitation operation. The alt-Vulcans simply insert their favorite quisling leader, and they then have a nice toady.

Of course, by the time of the GW, the Terrans have gained ascendancy. While the alt-Vulcans may have intended for a master/slave relationship, I imagine it grew into more of a position of equality over time. The introduction of more of the other worlds just reinforced that. And by ascendancy, I don't mean "rulers", I mean "leaders of equals".

The whole "what to do with the ISC" is why I like the idea of combining the CL28 scenario into the mix. With an undamaged Paravian horde, they can take over most of the space occupied by the Gorns. On the F&E map, you move the Romulan/Gorn border up a couple hex rows and change the "Gorn" label to "Paravian". This lets the ISC witness a Paravian vs Gorn/aRomulan fight and get the completely wrong idea. This lets them follow down their "historical" path, and doesn't leave them as a fifth wheel or "gateway to Omega".

(Plus, as the Carnivons probably can't be used, this lets us get one of the EY races back into the picture and builds on things done before.)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 11:40 am: Edit

I'm not so sure the Carnivons (or Vudar or Peladine) should be written off so quickly.


Plus, to further clarify, the Souldra idea is not intended as a 'gateway to Omega'.


If you buy the Omega modules, and then get modules C2 and C3 in order to get the Andromedan rules, does that mean you have suddenly given the Omega Octant of the Invasion Era a 'gateway to Alpha?'

The Andros might be presented in Alpha products (as the M81 Tholians and Seltorians are, as well as the wide-ranging Jindarians) but they stand apart from 'true' Alpha empires.

Similarly, the Souldra, and to a certain extent the Loriyill, stand apart for various reasons from other empires presented in Omega.

(They aren't the only ones - the Iridani live in a cluster outside the Milky Way, while the Bolosco were refugees from another galaxy altogether. The most either of those could try is the occasional visit, but not much more than that, if anything.)


Otherwise, what would stop me from pushing to have the ISC go fight the likes of the Trobrin Empire or Mæsron Alliance, or any of the other sedentary Omega empires?


Plus, unlike if I were trying to have, say, the Bolosco colony arks (which arrived in our galaxy in around Y96) settle on this side of the Void rather than the other - which, I might add, would still mean they'd only contact their new Alpha neighbours, and are again only found in one module (Omega 4) - the Souldra don't need such a shift in home space. Their capital is in the Void already.

And all of their ships and rules are in one module (Omega 3) for anyone who wanted to try them out against the ISC.

(The Loriyill are spread across modules 1, 2 and 5, though you could order the SSD books and the Omega Master Rulebook separately.)

And besides, a player wouldn't have to have their ISC fight the Souldra on the tabletop, any more than they'd be obliged to use the Andromedans, Seltorians or what have you. There is plenty of room for fights against Paravians, Orions and others, even if you don't feel like trying the Souldra out.

But they would be there if you wanted them.

Giving the ISC yet another Pacification is, to me at least, totally missing the chance to have them really play a unique role in this alternate setting.


But then, I guess I'm awkward like that.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 11:56 am: Edit

If Nazis are used then Hitler has to die. I'm afraid that giving Hitler success would be too offensive to too many people. I think it is far more interesting to kill Hitler be making the assasination on the train a success (because Romulan explosives are so much better) and go from there.

The very presense of aliens would have a huge effect of the leaders of who ever was contacted. I think the holocause would end because those leaders would realize that humans are humans are humans. The falacy of racsism between humans would fall even in an evil Terran empire where racism would turn to alien races.

By Robert Gamble (Rgamble) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Well, as mentioned above, I have a decent start on a timeline in which CL28 is incorporated and the Carnivons survive into the General War (but perhaps don't survive the General War itself).

Those elements could easily be modified to fit a no Carnivon and/or no Paravian Octant but I think the Carnivons fit very well. The Paravians I'm less sure about because I know a lot less about them.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Well, bear in mind that there are plenty of species in the SFU which still hate each other even after contacting aliens...


If a government on Terra is myopic enough on this sort of thing, they might not be so quick to change tack.


(Indeed, one could picture a fascist government singling out a certain ethnic or religious group as being in league with a foreign alien empire. "Those filthy [insert ethnicity here] - they'd sell our Empire out to the filthy Klingons!" and so forth.)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, July 04, 2009 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Maybe altSFU empires are so focused on weapons and "KILL, KILL, KILL!" that no one develops EW.


[ducks and runs!!]