Andrew, but that's volume not mass. If we are considering physics as the limitation and not game balance, volume is irrelevant. In fact, a solid 20 spaces of cargo probably translates to many multiples in mass terms if we are talking about relatively hollow volume of a cargo pack or barracks (and by barracks I was thinking added living space for a prime team, not 10 boarding parties. Perhaps it should just be hull.) Point is a box or two per pack should be available in mass terms.

Game balance is another issue.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 09:39 am: Edit

You could obviously insert a presumed "HSCS" class.

Heavy Space Control Ship!!

Akin to the C10V, it'd be a C10S version.

Ducks and runs

By Marc Baluda (Marc) on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 10:46 am: Edit

I should clarify my earlier post - volum is irrelevant when a pack is mounted, unless it would interfere with a mechlink. Volume is relevant for stored packs.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 02:58 pm: Edit

I submitted a "SRH" design a while back to SVC.

Back story, Kzinti built a HEAVY SR to compete with the Fed GSC onb what would later be called the CV/ BCH hull. After the first one was built (and the next few were still bare hulls) the Admirals caught on and made them into the first CVs (hence how the Kzinti went from zero to 4 CV hulls in one year)


Anyway, this ship gets overhauled to be a heavy fighter carrier and later to a PFT.

And a rocking PFT/ True DB ship it would be.

Even if a tad expensive.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 08:19 pm: Edit

I'd like to see some more interceptors. They seem like a wasted opportunity. PFs are obviously better, 1-on-1, but it seems a bit odd that *everyone* stopped making interceptors so soon. You'd have thought that once you'd made an int factory, it would be reasonable to keep building them.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar1) on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Jim, *everyone* retooled their INT factories into PF factories...after the war, they were (partially) retooled for workboats...

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Yeah, I proposed a Romulan K1 PF a long time ago. I figured that since the Romulans already had the Centurion and Starhawk, it didn't make any real sense. However, I really liked how balanced of a PF it turned out to be. It is a really nice little PF.

I figure the scout should probably have a Ph-1 instead of the Pl-F, but I left it this way.

Another long dead submission was the Federation National Guard PF. The idea here is that PFs are such an efficient police ship and, with the PF variants, such a ridiculously versatile tool, they would have done everything possible to get one into service. The conceit here is that it is shaped like a police ship, not a warship. Another neat feature is that it trades a "weapon space" for a permanent transporter, which is a critically useful system for police work. (I didn't include a tractor, as there will be recover PFs around that can be called for that function. But they need the transporter *right* *now*.)

Obviously, there would be variants which replaced the photon with either another Ph-1 or another drone.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Mike, while I like your Fed Police PF design, I can't see them with flotillas.

What I could see is a pair of Police PFs being assigned to an area to look at stuff in a fairly confined area with access to "facilities" every few days.

And YES, I think that a probe, transporter and admin are necessary.

Heck, just buy them from the Orions. They probably would have sold them to ANYONE that had the cash. Perhaps that was part of the deal to be refolded back into the Federation (I am sure the Feds were a tad peeved about the neutrality thing), the orions had to supply the Feds with X number of PFs for police use.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 05:07 pm: Edit

PFT (sorta) Q ships.

These advanced Q ships were designed to carry 1 or 2 PFs as an adjunct to their firepower.

Design:

1) start with a large standard freighter
2) add ONE small Q ship pod.
3) the second pod is totes a couple PFs in collapseable bays that look like pods (with the same caveats as the infamous deception pods for tugs).

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 05:12 pm: Edit

PF skids/ ducktails

These were specifically added to select MILITARY cargo toting freighters in the front areas.

Typically, the freighter picked up the skid(s) and PF(s) on the way to the front. The PF crew protected the convoy until arrival. Then usually the PF and crew were shanghai'ed into casual links, as replacements for flotillas or just added to the reserve flotilla.

DESIGN (in my pointy head)

Skid has one mech link, and one hull. NO REPAIR but a little stuff for the lone deck crew to do.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 05:15 pm: Edit

This is a Police Tender SSD I've been pitching for awhile. The SSD shows standard PFs but could easily be swapped out for police PFs.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 06:52 pm: Edit

For the Police PFs, I'd replace the AWR with cargo. They already have way more power than they'd need to chase down a smuggler, but the cargo would make them much more versatile.

This is a fairly plausible way for the Feds to go, because their only objection to PFs is apparently the crew death rate. I'd expect that that argument doesn't apply for police units. Unless of course, we've been lied to all along and the Feds have another reason (see an Olivette Roche conspiracy theory scenario I submitted a few years ago, which has been censored).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Neo-Tholian PFT Collars

This would be a collar, similar to those that convert the NCA to an NCH or the NCL to an NCM, but rather than increase the weapons and power of the ship, it turns it into a true PFT, though one without special sensors. Note that though most true PFTs have special sensors, there are several, mostly Lyran but also including the Romulan ROC and the Neo-Tholian BB with mech-link refit, that are classed as true PFTs even though they don't have special sensors.

These collars would have 4 tractors with mech-links and 4 repair boxes. They would also require that the NCA's or NCL's two integral tractor beams (one in the rear hull and one in the command module) have mech-links.

The dreadnought version of the collar would have two center hull in addition to the repair and mech-links. It could not be used in conjunction with the Neo-Tholian space control ship but it does add additonal flexibility to the NDN. Use the existing collar and the NDN becomes the NHD heavy dreadnought. Use the PFT collar instead and (assuming the NDN has at least two of its own tractors refitted with mech-links) the ship becomes essentially a Neo-Tholian version of the ROC, a dreadnought that also brings along a full PF flotilla.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 08:28 pm: Edit

On the police PFs, I intentionally grouped them as a standard flotilla. I can more than believe that they would not be deployed that way.

As for alternative systems, I don't see the need for a probe, cargo, or an admin shuttle. They do need weapons. They are basically a small Pol, but are expected to be based somewhere. Therefore, they just need to patrol their area. Anything needing a tractor, cargo, probe, or whatever can be dealt with by calling in for assistance (with what would likely be a specialist PF). The base PF only really needs the transporter.

As for power, I fully expect that these would not be allowed to use booster packs at all. That is why I left the AWR on the PF.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 11:18 pm: Edit

I'd like my police PF to have a tractor and a transporter. Maybe even a mech shuttle on the tractor. Too many police missions will require these technologies.

I think people will complain if the police don't get boosters. In the case of a Lyran, replace the 2xAPR with Mech-Trac, Transporter. Keep the booster packs and you have a well armed multi-mission capable Police PF.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 11:30 pm: Edit

There almost certainly would need to be a cargo capacity, some how.

dont care if they can trade a Shuttle for a bolt on cargo box like what the skiffs and modular couriers can, but it needs to be available.

Police ships do more than fight pirates, they need to be able to stand in for normal police ships, and that means customs inspections, revenue duties and the odd supply run to smaller bases and or outposts, when needed.

thats a lot to ask of any PF based design.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 11:43 pm: Edit

You can load the cargo in the attached shuttle.

The dual APR PFs have it easy, but the others are going to loose a drone, phaser or plasma. Then again, most such PFs have sufficient HW redundancy that this isn't too much of a loss.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 12:51 am: Edit

Tos, Jim Davies (earlier in the discussion) suggested replacing some of the APR with Cargo boxes, that way they wouldn't lose a drone, phaser or plasma.

I haven't checked the proposal or SSDs to see if he was right, but It seems to me, if we assume that most missions would have 2+ police PFs operating together, then 1 cargo box on each Police PF is plenty.

Play testing will be where we find out if such changes will work, but I'd guess that for most missions, the choice between having 1 or 2 APR (in the case of PFs with dual APRS) and 1 or 2 cargo (plus or minus the shuttle cargo module/shuttle thing) isnt going to be all that crucial to the success/fail of said mission.

at least thats the theory!

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 12:51 am: Edit

I might be convinced a police gunboat needs a tractor. Maybe. Not the rest.

It certainly doesn't need a shuttle. It *is* a large shuttle, for the purposes it will be exposed to. A shuttle is just an unnecessary extravegance. (Though, I do suppose that if it is given a tractor, the shuttle is a "freebie" at that point.)

It also doesn't need cargo. It doesn't have a long patrol; it can't: it's a gunboat. It doesn't do "station keeping"; it doesn't have the endurance. It doesn't need supplies, as its home base (whether a base or planet) has such. If it has to pick something unexpected up, it just radios back for one of the base's cargo gunboats to be sent out.

Remember, in the context of a police situation, the gunboat flotilla (or collection of combat oriented gunboats) are not in isolation. They are not the only gunboats involved. There is also the "silent" support flotilla sitting around, too. So, you don't need cargo on the police gunboat. You don't need an admin shuttle. You might not even need a tractor. All of those are a radio call away, and the emergency circumstances where such is needed at this exact instance are so vanishingly remote it wouldn't be worth the cost to replace useful systems on the gunboat to get them.

The reason for not including boosters (if such is done) is to "prevent" the navy from taking them. If a police gunboat is a viable combat unit that rivals the military gunboat, then it will eventually become a military gunboat regardless of what is intended. So, remove the boosters and the police gunboat has a much greater chance to stay with the police.

Plus, we already know that non-military gunboats work like that. Workboats cannot use booster packs; the older skiffs and couriers cannot use booster packs. I see no reason that police gunboats would not also be configured that way. I have to imagine the maintenance and reliability would only go way up by eliminating the use and possible use of warp booster packs.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 01:15 am: Edit

Mike,

I disagree with you about the booster packs. Workboats were never intended to go into combat. A lot of the police gunboats' missions will not involve combat either, things like customs inspections and even "traffic control". But there is also a significant chance that the a police gunboat will see combat, whether dealing with Orions, enemy raiders, or a smuggler who is involved in something really nasty and decides to shoot it out rather than risk capture. If there were no chance of combat, there would be no need for the police to have gunboats at all.

By Sean O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 03:23 am: Edit

How easy is it for an attacker to tell the difference between a workboat (de-weaponised gunboat) and a gunboat? With workboats being fairly common in the post-war era, would a "Q-Workboat" that looks like a workboat but is actually a gunboat be viable? Imagine your pirate ship jumping a lone freighter towing a workboat, only to discover that it's a Q-ship with a gunboat.