| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 05:31 pm: Edit |
Preliminary memo. Concept document to follow when available.
This would be an Omega expansion involving ships of the FIRST GREAT WAR, which I am given to understand is fairly early in the omega history.
This is based on a proposal by Scott Tenhoff who will be the moderator for this omega product (but not for the others).
NOTE: NO MATTER WHAT, only one of the three Omega products will get printed, but it's a fair bet one of them will be.
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 03:56 pm: Edit |
Note on all three Omega modules.
One is about "the First Great War", one is about "fast patrol ships" (along with PFTs and maybe SCS and DCS ships), and one is about "warships" (late period, fully capable, fight the alpha ships dead even). Anything that doesn't fit those categories (say, additional races like the zosmans, Paravians, Jindarian freehold) is not currently under development and won't be considered. Each topic will have a different moderator. I have a volunteer for First Great War and would consider offers to moderate the other two.
Only one will be selected in the May 07 countersheet batch, but it's 95% likely that ONE of the three WILL be selected.
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 04:00 pm: Edit |
Background document by Scott Tenhoff, moderator
History of the 1st Great War
This is following is from the Omega 1 Module and the timeline presented at the beginning, (OA1.0). A map on page 10 presents the Omega Sector at the end of the 1st Great War, as that war ended in Y95, per the timeline.
From page 4+5 from Omega 1, a quick summary of what has been written down for the 1st Great War. The timeline states that the "War" started in Y50 with the Vari vs Maesron. In Y56 the Vari tricked the Koligahr into attacking the Maesrons, thus having Koligahr+Vari vs Maesrons. In Y60 the Koligahr+Vari alliance convinced the Trobin to join their alliance against the Maesrons. In Y92 the Maesrons began the final campaign to knock out the Vari from the war. Y93 sees those Maesron ships from the Vari front arrive against the Koligahr and knock them out of the war within 2 months (destroying their shipyard I presume). Y94 those ships redeploy to the Trobin border to begin massing on that border, and the Trobin sue for peace by Y95.
From an F+E point of view, none of these races could have fought at an "At War Economy" for up to 45 years. The first years (say from Y50 to Y80) would have been lots of surges, attacks, then retreats back to their own borders, no invasions as seen as the Alpha Sector (like the Lyrans+Klingons invading and overrunning the Kzinti). The reason for these types of attacks can be easily explained as lacking military intelligence. In the Omega Sector all of the races are of different biology’s, so having spies in other Empires shall be very difficult until a true Pirate race (ie the Zosman, playing a role similar to the Orions) are introduced. As there is no serious mentionof the Zosman in Bruce Graw’s timeline I/we can easily explain that the Zosman offered no significant input in the 1st Great War as an intelligent asset. Now from a F+E point of view it would be akin to playing the game being able to see only the 3-4 hexes closest to your border, having secret economics, and not knowing your opponents overall ship production. [SVC would assume that the Y50-80 period included several alternating periods of peace and war, or perhaps something closer to the Romulan privateer campaign than actual war.]
Now in addition to the lack of military intelligence are the great galactic distances between the 3 enemies of the Maesron; the Vari, Koligahr and Trobin. Presumably since this is the early in the Omega Sector’s warp development (Y50-90), the strategic speeds of ships shall not be 6 F+E hexes per turn. In F+E terms a ship speed of "4" for warships could easily be justified. [SVC notes that it’s a good idea to see how SFB stuff works out in F&E, but this is an SFB product, not an F&E product, of course.]
The distances between the Vari and Koligahr Empires aren’t too far, relatively, but the Vari’s own racial command problems shall pose a significant problem with any coordinated effort between the races. Per the Vari’s racial description (OR5.01 in Omega 1), up to 20 different cells cooperate with each other, but trying to fight a war against the Maesrons coordinating that many different "units" would be impose a liability on whomever is leading the war effort. Imagine a US General (circa 2006) asking for units from 20 different Brigades [SVC: states?] and getting forces piecemeal or receiving what was not actually needed, this is what the Vari would face in any attempting assault. Now looking at the map between the Koligahr, Vari and the Trobin you’ll see a vast distance between the races. Any timely, accurate message sent between the races would be horribly out of date once it got to the Trobin. [SVC: the data in GPD says 15 minutes per 500 parsecs, so the message would be hours old. Of course, this earlier time period could see messages taking much longer.?] So to really sum it up, the Maesrons would be fighting 3 separate wars that had no practical coordination between Vari, Koligahr, and Trobin against the Maesron. While the Trobin might conduct a serious assault in March, the Koligahr could conduct one in November, and the Vari could throw a tiny raid in July, the Maesron wouldn’t be overwhelmed at any one time. In addition, in F+E terms, the Maesrons are on the defensive at their own Bases, Colonies, or FDUs and shall benefit from all of these while their opponents cannot. [SVC: military history shows that alliances of this type never work as everybody attacks when good for them, not when good for the alliance.]
The Maesrons decided early that a defensive war keeping their own defenses (bases or border colonies) alive was their best bet on continual survival against 3 attacking powers. So with this is mind they worked tirelessly during the first 30 years to expand their economy (read F+E colonies), shipyards, and keeping their ships alive (no needless sacrifices). This would include not attacking Vari, Koligahr, and Trobin bases as at these locations the odds would go up of losing any Cruiser-hulls, (ie the Maesrons wanted to fight pin battles to cripple many enemy ships). With all this is mind by about Y80 they were out producing all of their enemy shipyards combined and were easily replacing all ship losses. They begin amassing ships that they keep hidden from their opponents (ie beyond F+E detection range) in what are called three "Ghost Fleets". Any Maesron cripples are immediately replaced from the Ghost Fleet and fresh forces are kept along the border, while any Vari, Koligahr, or Trobin losses are removed from the front-line and repaired behind the lines. So in F+E terms by this time, this is when the Maesrons finally go to a "Full War Economy" to out produce their opponents in ships and begin amassing a larger quantity of ships than their opponents.
By Y92 (twelve years later) the Ghost Fleets have gotten so large that the Maesrons have 3 ships for every 2 enemy ships along their borders. They decide that this is the time that they can launch "Operation Hammer Blow" (Omega 1, Y92) sending these 3 Ghost Fleets to reinforce the Vari-Maesron fleet, leaving the borders with the Koligahr and Trobin with approximately the same number of Maesron ships as Trobin and Koligahr ships. They invade Vari space with overwhelming force and smash the Vari Fleet and defenses in a year, this would essentially be the 1st blitzkrieg in the Omega Sector as the Maesrons has amassed the ships, FRDs, convoys, and mobile bases necessary to accomplish a true blitzkrieg. Any new production this year goes to reinforce the existing Kolighar and Trobin borders to prevent any counterstrikes. In Y93 any leftover ships from Operation Hammer Blow, and the occupation of Vari space, are sent towards the Koligahr-Maesron border and begin storming across that border. The Koligahr are conquered by Y94 and their shipyard destroyed, the remaining planets sue for peace. Y94 also sees any newly built ship being sent to the Trobin border to stop any possible counterattack their. Y95 sees those ships available from the Koligahr defeat sent to the Trobin border to finish off the war their. Y95 the Trobin sue for peace and the 1st Great War grinds to a halt.
The Maesron assault upon the Vari is the first Blitzkrieg seen in the Omega Sector as the Maserons had prepared numerous Mobile Bases, forward deployed FRDs, and convoys to move forward to supply the invasions as they drove deep into enemy territory.
That is the summary of how the Maesrons were able to defeat all three of their opponents in this War and come out triumphant.
1. Limited intelligence, ie able only to see the nearest province or up to 4 hexes into the Maesron territory. Secret ship production, secret economies
2. Limited ship speed. These Omega ships during this period would only have a speed of 4 on an F+E map.
3. Limited supply range. Supply range would be 4 hexes, not 6 hexes. Convoys could move 1-2 hexes per turn considering they are earlier "auxiliary" ships.
4. Uncoordination of the Vari, Koligahr, and Trobin with a limited communication network between each of the races. Cohesive defensive strategy by one united Maesron government which could evaluate each of the 3 wars going on in one big picture.
5. No attrition units. Remember during this time in the Omega Sector there are no carriers, they were introduced much later than this war (approximately Y120) so all damage is upon ships. Bombers haven’t been introduced for the Omega Sector yet, but probably couldn’t be justified before Y100 to Y110 or so.
The Maesrons were able to win by outnumbering their opponents in shear quantities of ships and by being "defensive" during a majority of the war, not sacrificing units upon static defenses of their opponents. Then when the Maesrons did finally launch Operation Hammer Blow at the end it was the first blitzkrieg the Vari were totally unprepared for it as they could not of developed a blitzkrieg tactic on their own in their fractured ways.
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 04:01 pm: Edit |
Omega: The First Great War, Concept document by Scott Tenhoff, moderator
Omega: The First Great War, shall focus entirely upon the original races found in O-1 and O-2 and provide enough ships to allow each of those races to have:
1. A CL or CA-based Survey Ship
2. A Destroyer Scout (many Frigate Scouts exist already also)
3. A CL-based Commando Ship
4. A DD or FF-based Commando Ship
5. A DD Minesweeper
6. Size Class-3 Station (Base Station or in one case BATS possibly), some races shall also receive a Sector Base or larger
7. Tugs with up to 6 types of pods
8. Marine Unit information
In addition, a plethora of Generic units shall be provided to be used by almost all of the Omega races, 3 different types of Large Freighters, 3 different types of Small Freighters, 2 different Mobile Base designs, 3 different types of FRDs, Ground Bases, Defense Satellites. Rules to allow existing Alpha Sector Generic Units to be used in the Omega Sector (ie Ground Power Stations, Ground Mining station, Hanger Bay Modules, Repair Modules, etc).
Rules for all of the additional systems shall be included: notably Phaser-4 versions of Radiation, Quantum, Micro, Anti-Proton, Wide-angled and Particle Phasers. Sigvirion base-versions of their Pulse Emitters and Kinetic Wave torpedos. Alunda base-versions of their weapons. Rules for Minefields in the Omega Sector would also be included.
Omega: The First Great War, shall allow anyone who purchases Omega 1 (with or without Omega 2), to play any of those races in a Player-run campaign.
Races not involved in these products at all:
1. Races from Omega 3 & 4 shall not be touched at all. Most of these races have a YIS date of later than the 1st Great War (ie after Y100) so they can be ignored for this module.
2. The Zosman
3. The Paravian
4. The Nucians, which have been mentioned in the Omega Timelines presented in other products, shall not be talked about at all, as these haven’t been past playtesting to my knowledge and I have no information about them.
5. The Scon, another race I’ve seen mentioned by someone on the SFB board, hasn’t been submitted past Bruce Graw to my knowledge.
6. New Andromedan units
7. New Jindarian units (or any info on the "Jindarian Freehold" called out on the Omega maps).
Discussions of any of these races for these product aren’t going to go anywhere with me.
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 04:02 pm: Edit |
TOPIC OPEN
Since Scott is moderating this one, I don't have to pay attention to it and can go ahead and open it even though I'm busy with the R11 topic.
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 05:21 pm: Edit |
Hi!
Well, I have a few ideas as to what we could do with (and see in) this module.
For a start, I would open the door to the possibility of using Warp-refitted and Y-era ships (and maybe weapons - a Phaser-W2, or a weaker Tachyon Gun, for example?) for the races involved. This would allow the module to cover early skirmishes and conflicts between the Maesrons and their neighbours (such as the three 'Petty Wars' against the Vari).
Secondly (and tied into the initial point), I would advocate the inclusion of racial fleets for the three major member races of the Alliance (Tazol, Wallimi, Vulpa), and possibly one or two ships for one or two minor Alliance members (such as the marsupial Crell, or the arthropod T'kai).
The ideas behind this are that:
*At the signing of the Treaty of Maesra, the three founding races had significant NTW, or warp-reffited fleets of their own (indeed, the Tazol used their Tactical Warp ships to intervene in the Colonial War between the Wallimi and Vulpa),
*That the time it would take for the three races to agree upon a unified ship design, establish production facilites and actually build up fleets using the new ships, there would be a need to maintain substantial forces of the racial ships,
*We have a precedent for two of the three races already, with the Wallimi-built SR and the Vulpa-built Blockade Runner. (If we say that the Vulpa Insurgents based some of their new construction ships off of their older racial fleets, we could extrapolate a basis for the early Vulpa.)
Since the Tazol are the leading scientists and researchers of the Alliance, it would make sense that their ships would have the highest number of lab boxes - and given their role as mediators between the other two races, might intend their ships to be the most balanced racial ship design of the three.
The Wallimi, born explorers, would possibly have more uses for probes and special sensors - as seen on the SR. They might have a higher turn mode, too.
The Vulpa, in contrast, would have relatively few lab or probe boxes, but might have the heaviest weapons loadouts of the three - or perhaps they would stock up on transporters, barracks/crew quarters and shuttlecraft (in order to carry out boarding actions and planetary assaults.)
There would probably be no major need for more than a frigate-sized vessel for one of the minor races, but perhaps a minor niche could be found for one or two of these minor member races to fill - though they would likely only use their ships in a local defence role.
Warp-refitted designs for the Trobrin, Vari, Koligahr and others would be useful, as well...
When it comes to bases, I would stick with showing the equivalent of Y-era bases and freighters shown in Module Y1. So we'd see the equivalents of supply docks, base stations, early cargo ships, and what have you. (There's no reason not to say that the development of the Omega empires' infrastructures lagged behind their starship designs - and Y-era bases have more limited detection ranges, too!)
The later era bases and transports might be better off being in with the Gunboats or Warships modules, in my opinion.
Oh, yes - and we might be able to come up with a new Y-era space monster, too!
And given the focus on treating this as an 'early years' Omega supplement, the module title I would propose would be:
Module Omega Y: Ships of the First Great War.
Gary
| By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 05:58 pm: Edit |
I'd also like to see Orders of Battle for the races involved. This is something not available in the Alpha octant and I think it would be easier to do in Omega, since you can build it in from the beginnning.
| By Robert Hyrneson (Hyrneson) on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 11:10 pm: Edit |
Scott, one factor that you can add in some of the reasoning and causes of things happening in you history is politics and influential individuals, both civilian and military.
Sometimes things can happen only because the right person was in a place the effect that thing happening, for good or ill.
| By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 11:23 am: Edit |
Perhaps one or more of the minor alliance members could have a small shipyard producing size class 5 ships. Not PFs, but full warships, the cruisers of the minor races fleet. Which produced with the advanced technological abilities of the major races can be made in large numbers, and are used to supplement the standard Alliance fleets until they can build up their overwhelming forces.
After the war, ironically the Vulpa can push to have them de-commissioned to forestall future uprisings.
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 01:14 pm: Edit |
Jim:
While I'm keen to see one or more of the minor Alliance races dealt with in the module, I don't think they should have more than maybe one cruiser (and maybe then, perhaps that cruiser is a gift from the Alliance - think of the War Cruiser given to the Uthiki when they joined the Baduvai Imperium, out in the LMC.)
Unless you mean the minor race has a Hiver-like treatment of smaller ship classes... Which I don't think would work (they aren't as small as Hivers, and they would probably have a common nomenclature as the Alliance would.)
So maybe the odd home-built frigate and destroyer, and a cruiser gifted by the Alliance as a local fleet flagship, but no more.
Gary
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 05:48 pm: Edit |
I screwed up. I gave Petrick the original Scott Tenhoff document and thought that Petrick had given his ok. He had not, and here are Petrick's comments, which will cause Scott to make some change in his plan as (basically) Petrick is right and Scott is wrong.
There is always going to be a problem between what someone WANTS to do, and thus how he sees the game universe, and what ADB may think. Even the two Steves do not always agree on what the game history says. So with that in mind . . .
I.) The Historical background does not say that the Koligahr attacked the Mæsrons, or that the Mæsrons attacked the Koligahr. What it says is
A.) the Vari created a situation where the Mæsrons became concerned that the Koligahr might attack
B.) the Mæsrons deployed forces to defend against a possible Koligahr attack (since they were not aware that the Koligahr ships that attacked them were captured ships operated by the Vari)
C.) the Koligahr became concerned about the Mæsron deployments on their common border, and reinforced their own border (since they were not aware that the Vari had used ships captured from them to attack Mæsron outposts)
D.) the Mæsrons saw the build up of Koligahr forces as a prelude to attack, and further reinforced their forces on that border
E.) the Koligahr saw the continued build up of Mæsron forces, and interpreted it as the Mæsrons preparing to attack them
F.) With suspicion high (the Mæsron accused the Koligahr of pre, there was "an incident", there is no indication in the Time-Line what this incident was, but the Vari scheme came to fruition and the Koligahr joined the war on their side.
II.) The Zosman Marauders did not make an appearance until about a dozen years after the First Great War ended. So, yes, they are not the source of intelligence. This does not mean that the various races did not have other means of gathering data.
A.) there almost certainly was some trade, and not just direct race to race, but the Mæsrons might pick up data on the Vari from the Koligahr and the Drex. Data on the Koligahr from the Vari Probr. Data on the Trobrin from the Probr. The reverse is obviously also true.
B.) conflict inevitably will result in captured material, including computer files which will include star charts
C.) there is going to be those individuals looking for an opportunity to "feather their nests". Information will be bought from such individuals, and some will be further suborned even if there is no real way to get an agent in place.
D.) Good old fashioned traffic and patter analysis. Things like the "powerful sensor sweeps coming from region X".
The upshot is that while no one will have perfect intelligence, there is going to be some pretty good information. One of the Reasons the Mæsrons went to war was because the Vari were starting to raid more deeply into Mæsron space (see Y35 entry in time line), something that would not be effective if they did not have an idea of what planets to go looking for Mammalian blood at.
III.) I suspect that the limit on Military Advances was the same one that has been building up in the Alpha Sector. The logistics at the time were simply not up to such a major conquest. The only supply points are bases built before the war and convoys. And supply range is 4 hexes.
IV.) The note in the Vari Racial Emblem about the Symbol being the Herald of the Dominant Cell and being on Most Vari ships would seem to indicate that there is a continual struggle among the Cells for Primacy. That alone probably severely hampered the Vari. It is doubtful that they ever got all of the 19 remaining Cells (after the Mæsrons killed one off) to move in the same direction at one time.
V.) The Anti-Mæsron alliance is further hampered by the racial quirk that the Koligahr prefer to fight defensively [see racial background (OR3.01)].
VI.) I will note that the fact the Vari had some captured Koligahr ships to use for their ruse, that the Koligahr were apparently unaware of, would indicate that the Vari and Koligahr had a common border when the war started.
VII.) This whole "Ghost Fleet" thing I just cannot buy. Way too complicated and the Mæsrons were apparently a democracy at the time and simply could not have held off winning the war as soon as possible (see our own problems in Iraq). Scott sees history in a way that supports what he wants, I see it differently, and the existing text supports my view, not Scott's.
A.) The War started when the Mæsrons retaliated for Vari raids by attempting to exterminate a Cell. This was probably the limits of what the Mæsrons were capable of at the time.
B.) The Vari, incensed over the attack, marshaled their forces and attacked. Battle swung back and forth, but eventually the Mæsron economy gets the upper hand. By the Sixth Year of the War, the Vari realize they are losing and pull the Koligahr in.
C.) First with the threat, and then the actual fighting with the Koligahr, the Mæsrons have to suspend offensive operations against the Vari, and their fleets are weak enough that two-front war puts pressure on them. (Basically Churchill has ordered Wavel to suspend O'Connor's offensive in North Africa and send his best troops to Greece).
D.) Four years later the Mæsron economy has again gained them ascendancy. Probably also because the Koligahr are not really offensive minded, and the Vari cannot keep all of their Cells moving in the same direction. In desperation the Vari and Koligahr convinced the Trobrin to join the war. The Mæsron's again have to suspend offensive operations against the Vari, and the Koligahr, to move forces to stop the Trobrin. (Auchinleck has to suspend his offensive to send forces to oppose the Japanese.)
E.) A dozen Weary Years of fighting later, the Mæsron economy finally delivers a military supremacy, at least enough that they can concentrate on the Vari while holding the Trobrin at arm's length and probably just containing the less offensively minded Koligahr. In less than the Year the Mæsron fleet forces the Vari to sue for peace. If it was not for the Trobrin and Koligahr, the Mæsrons would probably have exterminated the Vari, but they are tired of the war and want peace.
F.) With the Vari Defeated, an even larger fleet is freed to attack the Koligahr who are defeated by sheer weight of numbers from the Mæsron economy. But the Mæsrons accept a surrender, and do not go for outright conquest of the Koligahr. Completing that conquest would take time and they need more ships to fight he Trobrin NOW.
G.) With Koligahr out of the picture, the Mæsrons turn on the Trobrin, and three years after the Koligahr are defeated the Trobrin sue for peace.
VIII.) Like the Alpha Sector, I think in this period the problem for deep incursions was logistics. There are no mobile bases, may not be any FRDs, and convoys are too vulnerable and too slow. The Mæsron could probably have destroyed their enemies utterly given enough time to build new bases, but exhaustion set in. Without the Koligahr being tricked, the Vari would have been destroyed. Without the Trobrin the Vari and the Koligahr would have been destroyed. Throw in the Trobrin, and war weariness finally stopped the Mæsrons.
IX.) There is no indication that the Mæsrons reached the Koligahr homeworld, and no indication that ALL of the Koligahr ability to construct ships was destroyed. By Y139, just 44 years later the Koligahr are squabbling with the Mæsrons over planets with starships, not diplomats. The Mæsrons might have conquered the Koligahr if the Trobrin had not entered the fray, but they were not able to do so and accepted a Koligahr surrender so they could turn their fleets around to fight the Trobrin.
X.) The Mæsron contact with the Chlorophons has always been one of the great mysteries of Omega, as there does not ever seem to have been a common Mæsron Chlorophon border for it to have occurred.
XI.) With the exception of the minesweepers, Scott appears to be basically proposing a Module M for Omega. Commando ships, ground bases, survey ships (which at least in Alpha tend to operate as Commando Ships at lot of the time). This isn't going to be a major sales point, and some powerul hook needs to be found. Just saying it's enough ships to do campaigns isn't enough.
XII: In regards his five conclusions/suggestions/summary.
Item #1: I disagree for the reasons noted in Item #1 above.
Item #2: This is consistent with Module Y and how Federation and Empire has handled the Early Years.
Item #3: This is consistent with Module Y and how Federation and Empire has handled the Early Years.
Item #4: Somewhat agree, the racial proclivities are obvious from the backgrounds, but imposing such a thing on players is very difficult and has nothing to do with SFB in general.
Items #5: Not really sure where he was going with this as the Attrition units thing has already been decided with Omega #2 setting up when fighters showed up. Is he thinking everyone will not build any frigates or freighters to use as sacrificial pawns?
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 05:49 pm: Edit |
Because of my screw up, I'm going to close the topic (temporarily) and let Scott rewrite his concept document to account for Petrick's issues and the sales potential issue.
Scott, if you want to argue with Petrick, do it off line. When you have a new document, send it to Petrick. When he blesses it or you two reach a compromise, I'll post it.
| By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 05:30 pm: Edit |
The Goals of Omega War #1
Omega Wars 1 shall focus entirely upon the original races found in _-1 and _-2 and provide enough ships to allow each of those races to have:
1. A CL or CA-based Survey Ship
2. A Destroyer Scout (many Frigate Scouts exist already also)
3. A CL-based Commando Ship
4. A DD or FF-based Commando Ship
5. A DD Minesweeper
6. Size Class-3 Station (Base Station or in one case BATS possibly), some races shall also receive a Sector Base or larger
7. Tugs with up to 6 types of pods, usually
8. Marine Unit information
In addition, a plethora of Generic units shall be provided to be used by almost all of the Omega races, 3 different types of Large Freighters (squadron format SSD), 3 different types of Small Freighters (squadron format SSD), 2 different Mobile Base designs (squadron format SSD), rules for Planetary Repair Dock (PRD), Ground Bases, Defense Satellites. Rules to allow existing Alpha Sector Generic Units to be used in the Omega Sector (ie Ground Power Stations, Ground Mining station, Hanger Bay Modules, Repair Modules, etc).
Rules for all of the additional systems shall be included: notably Phaser-4 versions of Radiation, Quantum, Micro, Wide-angled and Particle Phasers. Sigvirion base-versions of their Pulse Emitters and Kinetic Wave torpedos, an Alunda base-version of a Bio-Bolt. Rules for Minefields in the Omega Sector would also be included.
Omega Wars 1 shall allow anyone who purchases Omega 1, Omega 2, and Omega Wars 1 to play any of those races in a Player-run campaign.
Races not involved in these products at all:
1. Races from Omega 3 & 4 shall not be touched at all. Most of these races have a YIS date of later than the 1st Great War (ie after Y100) so they can be ignored for this module.
2. The Zosman
3. The Paravian
4. The Nucians, which have been mentioned in the Omega Timelines presented in other products, shall not be talked about at all, as these haven’t been past playtesting to my knowledge and I have no information about them.
5. The Scon, another race I’ve seen mentioned by someone on the SFB board, hasn’t been submitted past Bruce Graw to my knowledge.
6. New Andromedan units
7. New Jindarian units (or any info on the "Jindarian Freehold" called out on the Omega maps).
Discussions of any of these races for these product aren’t going to go anywhere with me.
| By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 06:41 pm: Edit |
OK, a few question for the peanut gallery.
SPP had an opinion via email that the Alunda and Sigvirions don't really need a base versions of their heavy weapons. I believe this was probably to not just flood the Omega-Sector with new weapons like he'd probably assume people would want to do. (Guessing here, so SPP don't bite my head off)
I was of a seperate opinion that they'd need some heavier weapons to at least give their bases "teeth", instead of plain Bio-Bolts or PEs/KWs.
So my plan was to give the Sigvirions a Heavy Pulse Emitter (HPE), think double-powered PE with greater range. Base version of their Kinetic Wave, think longer ranged KW with different firing modes (normal, sabot, fast-load, or one with a "splash") to deter long-range bombardment of the Sig Base Station.
My plan for the Alundas was to give them a long-range weapon to prevent standing off and bombing their Base Station. This would be a PPD-like weapon (to give some flavor instead of a normal direct-fire hvy weapon).
I haven't gone over any of this with SPP via email yet, but wanted to discuss these weapons with others (and possibly post the rules before final submitall to SPP). Specifically with numbers for damage.
I'm willing to consult the peanut gallery to find out if I'm on-base here or off-base here, that their bases need longer-ranged weapons (since they get no P-4 equivalents like other races do) or their weapons should be fine arming a base station with the current rules.
I'll post more about these later in the week.
| By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 07:30 pm: Edit |
The Sigs have a major problem in that they are extremely week at range 4-10. For ships, you can cope with this somewhat through maneuver and by staggering your formation. However, bases would be hopeless, as the attackers can pick the range.
So I agree they need some sort of HPE. I'm not convinced they need a better KW. The KWH is effective out to the maximum range of most Omega weapons. Now, for late-war Sigs, I think you need an upgrade, and alternate firing modes could be on the table at that point. But that's a different product.
As for the Alunda, I think we need to know what the Mirn did for their larger bases and ground bases. It makes sense that they used a headless Alunda for their mobile base-type unit, but I question whether they would use the same type of unit for large bases and ground bases.
Perhaps they used inorganic structures, in which case they would either need to obtain someone else's weapons, or perhaps these bases are unarmed, relying on ships and fighters to provide defense.
Perhaps they used a different kind of organic structure, in which case they might use PWs and BBs, or some new kind of weapon. I think it would be better to give them some kind of heavy BB (or completely new weapon) than to try to make up for the lack of long range firepower by giving them larger numbers of BBs. The simplest thing would be to give the 4-point mode an extended range and get rid of the cooling requirement.
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 07:31 pm: Edit |
So does this mean that the Early Years in Omega will have to wait for a separate module, then?
And is that the case for race-specific Maesron ships, as well?
Y-era ships would most likely be needed for at least the opening stages of the First Great War, and possibly even W-era ships, too - plus I was under the impression that the logistical nodes present would be equivalent to the YDKs and YBSs over in Y1, to explain the relative lack of deep strikes in the early years of the War.
Unless the name of the module has been changed, to take it away from the 1GW setting (just to note that Omega 3 already has the Omega Wars title, so using 'Omega Wars' again might be confusing for distributors) - in which case the issue of fleshing out the Y-era Omega races will sadly have to wait for another day.
(To be honest, I thought that this was going to be an Omega-Y module when I saw the option come up in the voting - it's my mistake, but it's still a bit disappointing. If I had have known that wasn't the case I would have requested an Early Years Omega book at the time. Oh well, I'll try to remember it for next year...)
Gary
| By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 03:25 pm: Edit |
Gary, from my interpretation of the timeline presented in Omega-1. Which remember was produced in 1999 and before Module Y's production/introduction.
The Wallami encounter Vulpa get in a minor war Y16-17.
The Tazol develop warp drive and a treaty is made. Y19. (So the 1st war seems to of been a sublight war with NTW possibly)
Y29 the Vari raid a Maesron outpost and the Vulpa launch a retalitory strike. 1st Maesron+Vari Petty War.
Y35. 2nd Petty War between Maesrons+Vari.
Y50. 1st Great War begins between Maesrons+Vari. Koligahr join in Y56. Trobin join in Y60.
From the MSC found in Omega-2 the Maesrons have the following ships:
CA: Y51
SR: Y53
DD: Y49
FF: Y42
The Vari have (since they engaged the Maesrons the most in these early years)
CA: Y55
CL: Y51
FF: Y42, FFL: Y60, FFS: Y43
You are right that the Maesrons could use some ships from the Y20-Y50 years.
There are two issues here that I see:
1) The number of pages available in the product, I've already allocated 12 pages to the Maesrons (and also Trobin, Koligahr, Vari, and Probr), 2 being combat ships (Early CC and the SR-base hull), the other being specialty ships (the current Maesron scout is the SCM, YIS=114), and 3 different bases (STB, BS, and 1 other)
2) The usability of any of these early ships in later periods. Any ship for these years (Y20-Y50) shall have little usability for years after Y60 (either being destroyed or upgraded). With the limited number of SSDs available, in comes down to which SSDs shall be used most often and the over the longest timeframe of the Omegan history.
When I proposed this Module I did it with the assumption of ADB not commiting to additional Omega Modules (as they have seemed to want to do with their posting of trying to get 1 Omega Module published this year). As such I shall want the one Omega Module published be useable by one and all over a large period of Omega history as possible.
The Module's goal is to allow any of the original Omega-1+2 races be campaign playable, and shall include rules to allow Omega-3+4 races to use the generic units also (which had considerablly more units already and could be campaign playable in some cases.) Since I sincerely hope that the product is published by ADB, I want anyone to open this up and say "This is what we needed to keep Omega going", and that is ultimately my goal in the product.
| By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 03:44 pm: Edit |
Quote:Andy V said:
As for the Alunda, I think we need to know what the Mirn did for their larger bases and ground bases. It makes sense that they used a headless Alunda for their mobile base-type unit, but I question whether they would use the same type of unit for large bases and ground bases.
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 06:32 pm: Edit |
Scott,
About the W- and Y-era ships:
*Given that the YIS dates of most of those base hull types you list are after the 1GW has already broken out, it's possible, even likely, that for at least the first decade or two of service the TL12 ships would serve in a similar manner that X-ships do in late General War (and Andro War) fleets - ie as either fleet flagships or in dedicated squadrons.
*Not only do we have Y1 as a precedent for these earlier ships - we also have Module R8. What is to say that the Maesrons and others did not turn their Y-era ships into Local Defence ships (LCAs, LFFs etc) for rooting out pirates, defending bases and colonies, and bolstering the fleet when necessary.
Indeed, one could picture the pre-existing ships on the front line hurriedly upgraded to L-series technology, and as more and more CAs and DDs et al enter service, the L-era ships are assigned to the traditional local defence operations.
(Perhaps the Maesrons turned to their LCAs et al to provide the bulk of the ships holding the weakened fronts during the massive redeployments of Operation Hammer Blow?)
And as the LCAs in Alpha continue to serve long after the introduction of CAs, the Omegans would have use for these ships to keep tabs on Zosman Marauders, space monsters, and what have you.
So in effect you'd have three related series - I'll use the Maesrons as an example:
W-era (warp-refitted) - the racial fleets that fought the Colonial War, before the Tazol unified the three core races,
Y-era (early years) - Perhaps the Y-designation means different things to different races, so the Tazol might have made their Y-fleet from scratch to enforce the Treaty of Maesra, while the Vulpa and Wallimi upgraded their pre-existing ships (like how the Fed WCL became the YCL),
and
L-era (Local Defence) - Older hulls with newer systems, used as an equivalent of XP refits in Alpha, and eventually switched over to system patrol, anti-piracy and monster-handling.
Gary
| By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 06:58 pm: Edit |
Gary I understand that, but the problem to me boils down to a number of pages in the module.
I am not ruling out their existance, but can't find room for them simply. Can they be introduced in the future? I don't plan to exclude the possiblity and I doubt SPP shall advise banning them (as he certainly has a nack for including loopholes for future ships).
Lets say there are 3 Maesron Warp Refitted FFs and CLs for each race (6 total, MT-WFF, MT-WCL, MV-WFF, MV-WCL, MW-WFF, MW-WCL), and 3 different Vari ships (WFF, WDD, and WCL). So say 9-12 pages for Warp Refitted ships.
So who do I cut? Cut the Alunda from 10-12 pages to 4? Cut the Probr from 12 pages to 4? Cut the generics from 6 to 2? I'm already gyping off the Phon, Drex and Sigs at about 4 pages each, do I forget them totally and piss off anyone that loves those races who bought the module?
To me it's a basic question of where to cut it off, and I just can't find the pages for those ships.
| By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 07:11 pm: Edit |
Okay, perhaps a better option would be to have a Early Years Omega module in the future, with W- and Y- (and maybe L-) era ships for a number of races - along with early bases and freighters.
However, as I was trying to say earlier, when you called this the 'First Great War' module, I thought that this would be the Omega equivalent of Y1/R8. (If you had called it 'Omega Campaigns' or some such, and not tied it to the 1GW, I wouldn't have been mixed up - indeed, it seems that what you are proposing is almost better suited for the Superpower Wars and Second Great War, not specifically the First...)
I'll ask for just such a module when the voting opens up next time around - but I would have done so already if I had have known what you had planned for this module.
Gary
| By Kenny Bruce (Lt_Bruce) on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 03:16 pm: Edit |
It seems to me that this module would be greatly helped by including map(s) for at least the beggining of the war, maybe one for right before the Maesron invasion. Unless the Maesrons won the war but didn't take any new territory? (which wouldn't be logical)
This would aid in determining borders/economics and campaigners or those who wish to adapt Omega to F&E (also like me). Anyway, that is what i've been thinking
Kenny
| By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 03:42 pm: Edit |
Yes I'm hoping to include such a map, as the current map from Omega 1 is the resulting borders after the 1st Great War (Y100).
It doesn't show the borders pre-war, which I'd like to define.
| By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 03:56 pm: Edit |
Below is the preliminary weapons table for the Sigvirion HPE (Heavy Pulse Emitter)
It follows the standard Pulse Emitter rules (ie 3 shots per turn, 8 impulse seperation of shots), costs twice as much as the Pulse Emitter shot (0.66 energy each), takes 2 power to fully energize.
It only does good at out to range-8 and after that it does really poor. But compared to the basic Pulse Emitter it has like triple the range. I've tried to stick with the Pulse Emitter concept, just upscale the range brackets and damage.
| Die | Range | ||||
| Roll | 0-1 | 2-4 | 5-8 | 9-11 | 12-15 |
| 1 | 8 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 3 |
| 2 | 8 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 2 |
| 3 | 8 | 6 | 3 | 2 | 2 |
| 4 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 |
| 5 | 6 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 0 |
| 6 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 07:19 am: Edit |
Scott,
At first glance the HPE looks a slightly weaker version of a phaser IV. I'd think that would allow KKH to be the long legs for base defence.
However the Sigs don't turn up in the first great war so I think you shouldn't put too much effort in to them at this stage.
| Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only Administer Page | Delete Conversation | Close Conversation | Move Conversation |