DOMINATOR had its FA TR beams changed to FH.

INTRUDER had its FA TR upgraded to FH, lost four cargo and two hull to gain two repair and two battery and also gained two warp engine boxes.

COBRA had its TRs downgraded to TRLs, lost two warp and a rear power absorber panel.

COURIER had its TR changed to a special sensor.

TERMINATOR lost two points of warp and a rear power absorber panel, but gained two phaser-2s.

DESECRATOR had its TR beams changed to 180° arcs.

CONQUISTADOR had its TRs moved from one LS and one RS to two FH, had its FA phasers changed to FH, lost an Aux Con box, and gained a repair box.

PYTHON had its TRs downgraded to TRLs, FA phaser-2s and FA TRs upgraded to FH arcs.

BULL SNAKE has three less cargo, two less hull, two less battery, and gains two transporters, a tractor, and a displacement device.

SATELLITE BASE lost two labs, and gained six power and a transporter, all TRs upgraded to 180° arcs.

INFESTOR lost four cargo and two hull to gain two repair and two battery and also gained two warp engine boxes.

MAMBA had its LS and RS TR beams moved to the same positions as the FA TR beam, all given FH firing arcs, and reduced to TRLs.

EEL lost a rear power absorber panel and two points of warp power.

VIPER had its TR downgraded to a TRL.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 02:44 pm: Edit

I remember there being a comprehensive list of changes to SSDs in one of the Captain's Logs in the early 10's. When I get home, I'll double check.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 03:18 pm: Edit

One other thought (for now, at any rate); could there be some kind of alternate "early postulate" rules governing PA panel operations, which could be derived from the way they operate in War and Peace?

Say that, when trying to run early simulator exercises, one particular academy tried to guess how PAs worked, but later switched to the "standard" SFB rules as more data on the Andros came in.

That would allow experimenting with the "new" rules in the simulators, yet not invalidate the older ones.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 03:32 pm: Edit

The main "old ship" that is IMO the most fun is the old Cobra. With full TRH, two extra power, and an extra rear PA panel, it was just nasty. Fun, fun little ship.

I guess giving the Python TRH would be good, too, but the old Mamba's arcs were just screwy.

So, I don't know if all of the "old" version need to be done, but including the "Killer Kobra" would be pretty nice.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 05:49 pm: Edit

I was thinking mainly of the Mamba/Cobra/Python/Viper, the sat ships.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 09:08 pm: Edit

Ah, here we go: Captain's Log #12, pp28-35 "Ship Changes in Doomsday". Everything Steve mentioned above, except for the Bull Snake is listed there, including BPV and crew changes (where applicable). But then again, the major changes were to the rules about Dizzy Devs and PA panels.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Is there a table-o-contents yet for this yet?

Since we are starting to see it come together.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Saturday, February 19, 2011 - 03:23 pm: Edit

This and a Master Ship Book are on my "must buy" list. Would LOVE to see this come to pass.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Can the Andromedans and their opponents live with this:

MWPs are basically the Interceptors.

PFs were extrapolated based on the MWPs.

PFs had to be somewhat larger to handle the shock of firing a TRL.

PFs are armed as: 1xTRL-FH (max range ten hexes, no shock due to slightly enlarged hull, but a second TRL would have caused shock even if some or all of the phasers were sacrificed for it), 2xPh-2-LS, 2xPh-2-RS.

There are three PA panels, two covering the forward arc, one covering the rear arc.

There are still two batteries.

The leader is identical to a standard PF except that a transporter is also squeezed in and it has a T-bomb.

The Scout is basically the same as the PFL, but gives up the TRL and the Transporter for two special sensors.

Standard PF Sensors, Scanners, Dam Con, and Excess damage.

Panel operating costs same as the MWP (note, MWPs are size class 5 units, not size class 6 units, this was noted in the Module J2 after action and errata files).

The Leader, Scout, and Standard Combat Variant PFs all have three hull, two batteries, three impulse, and six warp (plus warp booster packs).

Standard PF turn modes and breakdown ratings.

I am hesitant on these on a lot of levels (the shock situation makes me really leery about two TRLS, the relatively weak rear defense but I do not think I can justify three PA panels 360, or two PA Panels FH and two RH).

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 08:02 pm: Edit

The weapons look in-line with the other PFs, so I'm not worried about that. The weak rear defense is made up for with the LS/RS phasers, which can help harrass any unit trying to exploit it.

What I am concerned about is that this hull is far more capable of using the batteries than the MWP as it has 9(15 w/WBPs) power to recharge them on off turns. Perhaps this would also help balance out the glass defenses to the rear, making this ship capable of hitting slightly above its BPV, but having a 'glass jaw' to go with it.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 08:04 pm: Edit

I have copies of the PFs and Interceptors from Star Fleet Times Vol. II Issue #22.
Would you be interested in this?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Hmmm, if reinforced the rear of the PF is 10 which is on par with PFs with the rear shield refit (~12).

On the frontside, it's 20 verses 12 (15 for PFLs)...

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 08:48 pm: Edit

The PFs I referenced above had three/two PA panels, two TRLs, two ph-2s, two AWRs, and two batteries.

The Interceptors had two/one PA panels, one TRL, two ph-2s and one battery.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Kind of weird, but on the PFs, perhaps 1 PA FH, 1 RH, and 1 360? Gives the things an all around coverage similar in a sense to existing PFs.

Perhaps it can be treated as a 3rd bank for purposes of changing level and dissipation. I see problems in rules interactions though.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Or perhaps give it 'PF panels' that are 4/7, three in front and two in back (for 12/21 absorption in front and 8/15 in back).

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 10:11 pm: Edit

I was thinking something similar to Richard (1xFH, 1xRH, 1x360).

But I like the "PF Panel Capacity" idea also. But that means there are "5" PA boxes internally for the PF to take as damage.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 10:27 pm: Edit

4 phaser-2s seems excessive. Perhaps a phaser-variant with no TRs? The Star Fleet Times INT/PF seemed fine as they were.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Nick, it may seem so, but most other PFs have 2/3 heavy weapons to compensate. The only exception is the Hydran Hellion, with 1 HB and 3 spaces of phasers.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 01:08 am: Edit

I'd ask for notes detailing the potential use of these boats in the Omega Octant (prior to Y214) and the Lesser Magellanic Cloud (prior to Y202).


*For an Omega "variant", I'd ask that the L and R packs be treated as L and R warp engines respectively, and that the boats use the volatile warp engine rules noted in (OK1.2).

(As a point of comparison, the conjectural FRA gunboats have two 6-box volatile warp engines, and would deploy in the same 6-boat flotillas the Andros would presumably use.)

While I'd personally like to see something more distinct offered for an Omega take on what Andro boats might look like (perhaps a set of heavier units in 4-boat flotillas, akin to Iridani or Trobrin PFs?) I'd at the very least hope that the "Alpha" SSDs we seem set to get can be given a formal note on how such units might have been devised in the simulators of the various Omega empires.


*For the LMC, things would be more straightforward. I'd ask for a note stating that, since the Baduvai failed to develop warp booster pack technology for their own INTs and PFs (at least prior to Operation Unity) that the Andro flotillas they and other Magellanic remnants might postulate would, in turn, have no WBPs either.

By Jacob Karpel (Psybomb) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 05:41 am: Edit

Thinking about it, these little PFs would be tough for their class but have relatively little crunch per capita. Eh, makes them in-line with the REST of the Andros. I agree, though, that 3x 360 PAs would be a bit much. You're talking about cruiser-level damage absorption there (better in some ways, few cruisers can take 30 through their #4 without internals).

One thing I see, though, is that these things do not need WBPs of any kind to be fully effective. here's the breakdown:

6 Warp
3 Impulse

Hotel load is 1 power
Speed 31 is 7
one power is left over per turn

4 points in phasers
2 points in TRL each turn

Total power demands per-turn above normal output: 5
Power in Batteries: 10

This means that, without WBPs (or anything of the kind), these PFs can move at speed 31 while firing every weapon in their arsenal and maintaining reinforced shields for two turns regardless of incoming fire. If the unit had more crunch, I'd have been concerned, but it's just something to keep in mind.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 11:26 am: Edit

Jon,

I don't like the thought of these PFs making satellite ships obsolete.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 12:06 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

One thing I see, though, is that these things do not need WBPs of any kind to be fully effective.

---

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 12:39 pm: Edit

First, I feel forced, from a design perspective, to do what I have done.

Remember, this is "The Andromedan Threat File". The PFs I have proposed here are based on looking at the MWPs. A pre-existing (Y176) size class 5 (per Module J2 errata) unit that any Alpha Octant analyst would use as a baseline for developing an Interceptor (rated the MWPs as the Interceptor class for this purpose) and PF simulation.

The MWP establishes that it is too small to mount a TRL (see the MTP). A small increase in size (similar to the Int to PF upgrade) is used to allow ONE (1) TRL to be used without shock. I cannot see the Andromedans (as an Analyst) deploying masses of small units that rapidly tear themselves to pieces (the Logisitics situation becomes untenable, the units become virtually useless for the "distant strike" mission). Bad enough enemy fire may cripple them without them wrecking themselves and not being able to return. So I cannot see mounting two TRLs on these boats.

Andromedan phaser-2s are not phaser-2s (says that somewhere, but I do not have time to look that up). There is not one single Andromedan ship that mounts a phaser-3, not even the Desecrator or any Ground Base or Defense Satellite. The phaser-2 is simply the nearest analogue to the weapon the Andromedans actually use. While Andromedans are allowed to repair these weapons as phaser-3s, there is no Andromedan unit that uses phaser-3s to this date. For that reason, I opted to use all phaser-2s, but downgraded the 360 mounts on the MWP to LS/RS mounts. I Can be talked into reducing it to three phaser-2s (FH, LS, RS, or maybe 360°, LS, RS?), but felt two LS/RS allowed better drone defense, i.e., the design is influenced by the need to fend off Alpha Octant fast drones and plasma torpedoes.

The MWP has two PA panels that protect from all directions. I felt 20 points of protection all around was too weak for the Andromedan PF, and 30 points of protection all around too strong, and 30 FH plus 20 RH was too strong also. So I again opted for the larger size as an excuse. A trade off. The larger size allows the TRL, but also disallows the 360 weapon and PA panel arrangement of the MWP. Most PFs can take about 15 points of damage on their forward shield while closing on an attack run with no degradation in combat ability (12 box shield plus three hull/armor, i.e., PF hull is functionally armor rather than hull). Shots hitting from any other direction (after the shield refits) still have to get through 12 boxes of shields. The Andro PF as designed can take almost 23 points of damage (20 PA and three hull) over its FH arc, which adds value to supporting ships firing at it even from further away, in its FH arc. A normal PF would gain some benefit from its #2 and #6 shields in such case. The weaker rear half defense makes it easier to try to run down and kill the boats. More so than Alpha Octant PFs they are designed to attack.

MWPs have two batteries and two PA panels. I could not see decreasing the number of batteries for the PF, nor increasing them especially when adding another PA panel. Again, as an analyst, I feel I have to use the MWP as the baseline unit.

Similarly, I cannot see an Analyst figuring the Andromedan PF would have less warp power than Alpha Octant PFs. The Viper class has the same warp as most Alpha Frigates, but the Cobra class has more warp than most Alpha destroyers (and the same as some war destroyers, i.e., 18 like the Fed DW), and the Mamba class as much warp as most Alpha Heavy War Destroyers (incluing the F6 in that class). Conquistadors match CWs, Intruders match the Gorns, Romulans, and ISC (and exceed every one else) in warp power. If you make that assumption, then when you also imagine them developing warp booster packs, why would you imagine them less effective than Alpha Octant packs? These are a threat, not an afterthought or a joke played on another analyst.

As to making other satellite ships obsolete. These are "not real". You might let your local Andromedan player use them on his birthday, or at his bachelor party, but they are not going to be things that actually appeared. This is what analysts THOUGHT the Andromedans would do, and as such (and as noted) is based on a read of something they DID do (MWPs) and what the Alpha Octant Empires were doing (PFs). You can all get together and decide to allow them in your local campaign, or not. Or even allow them for your annual "Halloween" or "April Fool's Day" games. Or whatever other limits and restrictions you choose.

As to the PA panels working less efficiently, again I have to base these on the MWPs. The panels on the MWPs work exactly the same as the panels on the Desecrator, differing only in the cost to operate them (and the number of panels in a panel bank, of course). Why would an analyst imagine the PA panels of an imagined simulator Andromedan PF would be less efficient?

As to Omega and Magellanic variants. I doubt it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 12:40 pm: Edit

As to an All Phaser variant. I have considered that.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 01:02 pm: Edit

A. David Merritt:

I think (been a long time) that the Andromedan PF/Interceptors that appeared in the Star Fleet Times were found to be too powerful.

Richard B. Eitzen:

A problem with reducing the operational characteristics of the PA panels is the other direction. Why not just imagine the panels are more powerful on the PFs? I.e., one PA panel holds 8/12 points, or 11/15 points, or 14/20 points? Once you open that can of worms (PA panels that have different operational characteristics than other PA panels) where does it end? Everyone who plays Andromedans knows how the panels work now, do we really need to add a complication wherein an Andromedan player has to remember that the panels on his PFs operate uniquely compared to all other PA panels in the game? Again, the MWP has already been published and I do not want to get into why the PA Panels on it operate normally while PF PA panels do not.

Gary Carney:

This is the Alpha Octant threat file. You could do an article for Captain's Log covering the Magellanic Cloud and Omega Octant concepts.