Archive through February 25, 2011
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: After Action Reports (Finished Products): Module C3A Andromedan Threat File: Archive through February 25, 2011
By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 01:12 pm: Edit

I have often noted that I am more "mechanic" than designer (SVC is a designer). I did try to make the unit seem consistent with the established material, i.e., the existing MWPs, Alpha-Octant fast drones and sabot plasmas, balance between offensive and defensive capabilities. The lack of shuttles (no separate tractor beam or mech link on the PFL design).

If my Andromedan PF design is deemed unacceptable I will try to come up with something else.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 01:28 pm: Edit

SPP:


*For the phaser armament, a switch to an FH/LS/RS loadout could perhaps be seen as a "design compromise" which could have been postulated as a consequence of the TRL installation. (That could make a phaser variant more viable, perhaps.)


*I won't labour the point beyond this post, but I do wish to express my disappointment that the scope of this file will be so limited.

While, as you say, there could in principle be scope in Captain's Log for other areas, I feel that excluding them from C3A would be a missed opportunity to take in the wider scope which the Andromedans themselves took when launching their invasion of our corner of the universe.

As I posted earlier, the PFs wouldn't even need new SSDs; merely a couple of notes detailing how to treat the Alpha SSDs in order to represent what local analysts might have come up with (count WBP as Warp and use (OK1.2), or ignore the WBPs altogether).

I know I'm not exactly in the majority among SFU fans in considering Omega and the LMC as being on a par with Alpha itself; still, in this case, with the one empire that has just cause to treat all three regions as equally ripe for conquest, I would have preferred not to see the two others kept out in the cold.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Gary, our group freely mixes LMC, Omega, and Alpha regularly. The Andromedans, and to a lesser degree, Neo-Tholians, Seltorians, Paravians, Jindarians, and the Bolosco could all have different designs for different locations. I think the idea of a C3A for both Omega and LMC could be an interesting idea, perhaps you could work out an outline for E23?

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Quote:

Similarly, I cannot see an Analyst figuring the Andromedan PF would have less warp power than Alpha Octant PFs. The Viper class has the same warp as most Alpha Frigates, but the Cobra class has more warp than most Alpha destroyers (and the same as some war destroyers, i.e., 18 like the Fed DW), and the Mamba class as much warp as most Alpha Heavy War Destroyers (incluing the F6 in that class). Conquistadors match CWs, Intruders match the Gorns, Romulans, and ISC (and exceed every one else) in warp power. If you make that assumption, then when you also imagine them developing warp booster packs, why would you imagine them less effective than Alpha Octant packs?



Certainly, this is all true.

However, in practice, what Andromedan will ever *use* them? With the 6 built-in warp boxes on the PF, they can easily achieve the maximum allowable warp output of a unit. The reason 'galactic' PFs have the extra warp in the booster pack, then, is to allow the PF to have enough power to do ANYTHING else at all when cruising along at 30. Indeed, the power shortage is so critical (3 power, 1 battery) that the galactics are even willing to put up with the sensitivity to damage of the WBPs just to get some more power.

Why would the Andros do that? Their PFs, in the larger Andro battery and their PA panels, will *always* have more than enough power for the Andro player to do anything else they want without risking the magnified damage that booster packs bring with them.

I can't see an Andromedan PF user, if given booster packs, ever bothering to turn them on.

And wouldn't that be something of a 'threat', on its own? A PF-sized unit, that can take damage better than many frigates, and doesn't have the volatile booster packs common to other PFs?

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 03:50 pm: Edit

I can see the WBPs being useful on off-turns for refilling the batteries. IMX Andros seem to be either glutted with power or starved of it. The PA panels cost more than Galactic shields do, and if the Galactic refuses to shoot at my ship, then I run out of power fairly quickly if I try to fly at full speed and arm everything. In any case, WBPs also increase a unit's strategic range and speed, and our hypothetical Andromedan PFs would need them for that if nothing else.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Quote:

In any case, WBPs also increase a unit's strategic range and speed, and our hypothetical Andromedan PFs would need them for that if nothing else.



Is that true of Andros, though? Wouldn't Andro PFs pretty much *live* on a tender, which gets around by the RTN instead of needing the 'higher strategic warp speeds' galactic PFs need? I can't imagine Andro PF flotillas being regularly sortied from a base on the RTN, for risk of them being tracked back to it and exposing that RTN node...and that'd really be the only other use. ?Maybe defending a held planet? (But, again, I don't see the long-range, higher-strategic-speed strikes called for)

Quote:

The PA panels cost more than Galactic shields do...



Doesn't look like that's true for the PFs, though. Looks like MWPs take only 1pt of power to arm to 'reinforced' level, which is the same power PFs take to fully raise shields.

Quote:

...if the Galactic refuses to shoot at my ship, then I run out of power fairly quickly if I try to fly at full speed and arm everything.


Hmmm. Perhaps that's true.

It'd definitely be a pretty common tactic, then (are Term Papers valid for C3A units? ), to leave Andro WBPs off most the time. Certainly, when combat is expected.

IE., 'off turn' - make sure you are far away from the enemy, turn on WBPs and put just enough in battery to power the PAs, arm all weapons, etc for the next turn. Next turn, disable WBPs and close for attack...burning batteries empty to power systems (and thus clear them for room to empty some of what gets absorbed in the PA panels during the turn).

Sure makes them vulnerable to Klinks, though. Turn away, and you've got one PA box in the rear. Disruptors can do the 2 points necessary for a 'leak' internal all the way out to range 30 (and a 50/50 shot per barrel with DERFACS running). Once the hull is burned up, if that 'leak' point hits a boosted warp engine...

That's a lot of risk to take. Galactic PFs don't have to deal with 'leak points' of damage, so some of the risk of the boosters was acceptable.

It just seems like the risk-vs-benefit for WBPs on Andro PFs doesn't seem to have the same balance it does for the Galactic powers.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Xander Fulton:

Then don't use them. There are existing rules for operating PFs without packs.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Xander Fulton:

PF warp booster packs are still present when off. You should read the rules for them. They are not "On, Off, or Dropped" like Fighter booster packs, they are "present or not present". If present, whether on or off, their increased damage effects apply.

Second, Andromedan Motherships can launch distant strikes from places other than bases. They can do this with satellite ships (it is entirely possible to have a scenario where the satellite ships of a mothership raid a planet or convoy while the mothership which launched them is not present). PFs operated by PF tenders operate the same way, and so would PFs operated by a mothership.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Quote:

Then don't use them. There are existing rules for operating PFs without packs.


Absolutely - that is definitely an option.

Anyway, just thought it was worth discussion, that's all - it seemed like the use cases for them on Andro units are...less prevalent than the use cases for them on Galactic units. And the risks are greater.

But, no matter. It seemed worth discussion, it was discussed, I'm eager to see whatever you guys come up with.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Why would you turn the packs off? By (K1.65) you take extra damage as long as they are on the PFs, you have to drop them to not take extra damage.

Answered by others while I looked up the rule number.

GRIN

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Adm - yes, SPP corrected me on that. I'd forgotten the damage increase continued with them disabled.

I guess the Andros could always WBP into the battle area, get the initial charge in the batteries for the first turn, and then drop them entirely?

I dunno - we'll see what the final version of these PFs look like. I have a hunch there is a term paper in there, somewhere, but will need to see the final version of these to get a feel for what that might be.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Packs do not cause meaningful extra damage on PFs. For galactics they're an unambigous damage reducer. If your alternative is no packs, then have the packs and use the 6 extra power for general reinforcement at 1-1, even every engine is destroyed by 1 hit you are STILL taking more damage to destroy, and more damage to depower to any specified level!

For Andros without the ability to general reinforce it's SLIGHTLY more ambigous. But only slightly. An Andro PF with no packs take 6 warp hits to completely dewarp.

An Andro PF with 2 engines and packs will absorb an average of roughly 4.322788066 hits prior to being de-warped. If the Andro PF uses 3 engines of 2 boxes each then it will absorb and average of roughly 4.680555556 hits prior to being de-warped.

So you are trading absorbing about 2 extra damage for not having the option of 6 extra power when you want it. And this assumes that the shot doesn't overkill you anyway when the panels fail! If, as seems to me more likely, serious damage to the PF results in the panels going BOOM then there's no real loss in damage absorptance.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 12:47 am: Edit

Gary,

Based off of the premise of the module, you'd figure that each ship would be the brain-child of a single author. I can't see a Romulan postulating what Andro would do in Boloscoan space any more than I can see the reverse.

I _could_ see some interesting Omega tie-ins if SPP were willing, but they would nothing to do with PFs.

I could see:

a) Boloscoan Intelligence contemplate what an Andro would look like if they merged their tractor technology with that of an Andro.

b) Ryn Intelligence wonder if a captured frigate would resolve in TCB-armed Andro who convert your ship to power.

c) While they never werre seen to take Phaser technology from the Alpha Sector, the vast sea of Omega phaser versions would question what a a PP1 armed Andro would look like doing an overrun.

The Andro from original concept took a lot of reasonably innocuous systems (trans/tract/etc) and turned them into implements of destruction. You could say the same of many of the Omega races. I could see them panicing (or drooling) over what one of them would do with the tech from the other. I'm sure the the first time a Boloscoan saw a TRH they started trying to figure out how they could do that with an FTB.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Mike Kenyon makes part of the point that Gary Carney is missing.

An analyst in the Alpha Octant is going to know what a Dominator (and its variants), or Intruder (and its variants), or Conquistador (and its variants), or etc. looks like. So is an Analyst in the Omega Octant, or the Magellanic Cloud. These are (if you will pardon) "Real Ships". They have been encountered and fought. The records of those battles are available for study. The damage outputs of their weapons, the power outputs of their warp engines, and etc. have been recorded. Level M information has been achieved and life signs are known, but boarding parties encountered have been machines.

Now lets extrapolate from Andromedan Technology and determine what we think a Gunboat will be.

At that point you have different views, and it is NOT simply a matter of taking the design of the Andromedan PF as envisioned by an Alpha Octant Analyst and saying "An Omega Octant Analyst would come up with the same thing except that the warp booster packs would function as nova packs."

The Andromedan PF design I have tossed out is designed by an Alpha Octant Analyst based on Andromedan Technology and how Alpha Octant PFs were designed and operate with no knowledge of, or means of communicating with, Analysts in the Omega Octant or the Magellanic Cloud.

If an Omega Octant Analyst were trying to extrapolate an Andromedan Gunboat, do you not think it would be influenced by how gunboats are operated in the Omega Octant? Look at the Omega Octant Gunboats. They are typically (not universally) larger and operated in (typically) smaller flotillas than in the Alpha Octant. An Omega Octant Analyst has no idea how gunboats are operated in the Alpha Octant.

So it is not a case of just changing how the warp booster packs operate. I would expect an Andromedan Gunboat designed by an Omega Octant Analyst to look very different from one designed by an Alpha Octant Analyst. (Probably closer to the Andromedan Gunboats that appeared in The Star Fleet Times.) And probably intended to operate in flotillas of four or five boats.

Same thing in the Magellanic Cloud. Why would the Magellanics imagine a PF exactly like one imagined either by the Omega Octant, or the Alpha Octant, except that it does not use warp booster packs?

In the Magellanic Cloud the starting point is the same (known Andromedan technology), but what you are looking at is the Baduvai Fast Patrol Ship as the only extant example of what a gunboat is and how they are operated, so they probably would not imagine scouts or leaders, and likely would imagine a gunboat with fewer weapons than the Alpha Octant one.

So, like I said from the start. Possibly a Captain's Log article. Look at the Omega Octant and Magellanic Cloud and put yourself into the role of an Analyst for those empires. Prior to the Conqeror class (Itself an "imagined ship", i.e., Warship Status Impossible), there is no such thing as an Andromedan ship with more, or less, than two engines. (Even Dominators and MWPs have two.) So what would an Omega or Magellanic Analyst think an Andromedan PF would look like?

The only thing I know for sure is that it would NOT look like or have the operational characteristics of an Alpha Octant design.

And that, Gary (no offense is intended, I am just trying to be clear) is why I am not writing a rules for modifying the Andromedan PFs in Module C3A for use in those areas. Simply because they are entirely conjectural and I am not closing the door to unique designs for those two regions.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Given the proclivity of Andros to use T-Bombs, it would seem that a variant of the PF with some way of deploying these effectively might be a potential inclusion, too (in addition, of course, to the 'phaser variant' suggested above).

IE., the 'minelayer' variant we have for most Alpha PFs would be particularly annoying from the Andros if a transporter could be accommodated in place of one of the mine racks, or perhaps in place of the MSS mech link. (And this variant would obviously need the PFL capacity for at least some T-bombs, so (M9.19) could be used to supply the transporter from the racks)

Such a unit would be *very* annoying to drone (and heavy fighter) using races, as it would provide some interesting 'area defense' capabilities against small units when included in a standard flotilla.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Xander Fulton:

". . . proclivity of Andros to use T-bombs . . ."

No.

Were that so Andromedan ships would be designed to carry far more T-bombs than they do. They do not carry any more than are found on Alpha, Omega, or Magellanic ships.

They had a capacity to make greater use, but for reasons that are unknown, they did not. And from a game balance point of view it is a good thing.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Absolutely - ergo, the careful phrasing of the suggestion being the note 'to use', rather than 'carry lots of'. Such a variant would definitely *not* carry more mines than the Alpha sector 'mine warfare PFs'. And the removal of the MSS mech link makes sense, as the Andros have no shuttles, so...what to do with that internal, that the Andros would actually make use of? A transporter pad came to mind.

The suggestion was just a consideration of how to implement one of the 'alpha' PF variants in a way the Andros might make use of. Obviously, a few of the common alpha sector PF variants make no sense for the Andros. Fi-Cons? Not really. 'Assault' variants (with different heavy weapon arrangements)? Not applicable. etc

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Xander,

Are you suggesting an Andro FCR-equivalent that restocks T-bombs rather than fighters?

Mike

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Xander Fulton:

You are making a mistake. You are assuming a direct correlation and that is not necessarily the case. An Andro Mine Warfare PF by definition is going to retain the TRL for use as a tractor and at least two of the phaser-2s, otherwise it would be totally unable to sweep mines. With the TRL (again, operating as a tractor) and two phaser-2s it can sweep one mine a turn. On the current (proposed by me) design, at that point you are trying to find room to squeeze in two PF mine racks, they are replacing two of the phasers, and to get them in may require also giving up a hull box or even something else. But that does not leave room for a transporter.

As to weapon variants, as noted I could see an all phaser variant, replacing the TRL with a fifth phaser-2, and maybe a "assault variant" that was found "only at bases" (where they could be repaired after suffering shock rather than being used for the distant strike mission, i.e., a purely "local defense" boat) with two TRLs, but I would regard it as iffy.

Right now the obvious variants would be: Cargo, Commando, Minewarfare, Recovery, and Survey. The Phaser-Variant is doable (Andromedan version of a plasma/drone defense boat), and probably does not need a leader variant. Yes, there is no need of a Fi-Con variant, and I doubt there would be a "workboat" variant.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 04:26 pm: Edit

Mike Kenyon:

That is called a "Cargo PF". Cargo PFs can deliver T-bombs as cargo.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Load up a ship that has cargo boxes with spare T-bombs. Then as you use the readied ones, reload the rack from stores.
I'm sure there is a rule against it, but alas its worth a shot to look into.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 09:36 pm: Edit

re: Andro PF weapons

I don't know if I have a problem with the A-PF weapons.

The Viper has TRL+2xLS-P2+2xRS-P2s.

So the A-PF will have the same weapons as an FF (what the Viper is).

Now comparing the Klingon G1 to a E4, the E4 has +2xP2s over the PF.

Comparing the Kzinti PF to a FF, the FF has +1xP1 over the PF.

So, the PFs are not usually as well armed as a PF, not usually equal to a FF. So the Andro PF will be equal to the Andro FF, not weaker.

So could the A-PF have 3xP2s? FH, LS, RS

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 10:50 pm: Edit

Quote:

So could the A-PF have 3xP2s? FH, LS, RS



Or LS, RS, and RH (drone defense)?

While my knee-jerk reaction is that 4xPh-2 and a TRL is a bit heavy for a PF...the Hydran Howler manages 3xPh-2 and 3xPh-G. A LOT more damage in the 0-3 range bracket. But certainly much less at most ranges.

And as a counter-point to the 'Andro PF = Andro Frigate', though, consider the shield situation. With 12 shield all around (after refit), the Kzinti PF is almost as well protected as the FF (identical shields on 5 sides, and only a few boxes more forward). So the Kzinti PF, if it had another phaser, would BE just as capable as the frigate. A dicey place to be!

However, the Andro PF proposed has less than HALF as many PA panels as the Andro VIP. So, even if the weapons are the same, it's still not fighting in anywhere near the same league.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 12:53 am: Edit

Is there any justification for a 3xP2 - LS/RS/360 arrangement in other Andro hulls?

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 01:36 am: Edit

The not-a-Phaser-but-sure-looks-like-one Phaser-2 that the Andros field are *always* 180 degree arcs on their ships. No more, no less. (The starbase is an exception, with 240 degree arcs)

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