Is there any significant difference between a sublight Romulan freighter and a sublight freighter from any other empire? Is there anything stopping players who want to use sublight freighters in their Early Years games from using that SSD? I haven't seen the Romulan sublight freighter SSD, so I don't know. But I'd be surprised if a generic sublight freighter looked significantly different to the Romulan version.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 12:09 pm: Edit

I don't know if they would work as a separate fleets; but as a pair of "hostile" or "monster" ships/scenarios, the quarantined species at Vereb IV and Yeney'vn (as described in GURPS Federation) could make for interesting additions.

As might the more friendly Bis'en, for that matter; assuming they actually have starships of their own, that is. (Star Fleet wouldn't take issue with the Bis'en, but an Orion pirate might.)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 12:25 pm: Edit

The Romulan sublight freighter is unique to the Romulans. It is built to carry the 16 box FE cargo pods. So, it really isn't usable by other empires.

As a simple form, to make a sublight freighter, just take an unarmed freighter and delete the warp engines. If you feel generous, add enough impulse to cover any power requirements still needed (i.e. housekeeping + movement). I figure two more for the small and three for the large should do just nicely.

Yes, it is a reasonable request to include sublight freighters. I just don't know that they are worth the page to print ...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 12:49 pm: Edit

As an aside, I was just thinking that a raid by the Wasp People of Vereb IV would make for a great monster scenario in Star Fleet Marines, too...

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 01:30 pm: Edit

My general idea for the Bis'en (I am working on their history and background) is that they end up purchasing ships from the Federation for their small navy, thus no new ships or weapons.

The Wasp People and the Yeney'vn have non-tactical warp.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 01:36 pm: Edit

You really don't want to mess with the Wasp People in ground combat...sure, their slowpoke ships are easy to take out...but in ground assaults they are deadly, evil, terrifying....

How that translates into an actual combat game I don't know...but I intended them as a true nightmare race for role-playing purposes...fun for the GM!

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 03:43 pm: Edit

I don't know, ground combat with them might not be too bad as long as your definition of "ground combat" is "nuke from orbit".

Sure, it won't kill all of them. But, it will take them a few centuries to get back to NTW and, really, that's enough for now, isn't it?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 05:16 pm: Edit

I wonder if there's a thriving market on Bis'en for ISC workboats in later years; specifically ones built on Korlivala...

Kidding aside, that does lead me to a related point; just how much interest/contact/etc would the discovery of the Bis'en generate for the Korlivilar back in the ISC, or vice versa? Even if the two species aren't confirmed to be related, the very question might be enough to spark some degree of mutual interest, perhaps.

(Although, what could also be a neat idea might be for there to have been some ex-pat Bi'sen at Aurora III when it was "lost", whose descendants could have later mingled with Korlivilar inhabiting the ISC colony that went over to FRA space in Y178... but that would only work if Bi'sen started serving off-world prior to Y130, and if there actually were any Korlivilar at PX 123 to later mingle with.)


In the case of the Wasp People, I would hope that, while they would be a dread sight to behold, they could still be just able to work in a SFM:A context.

Although, I suppose it would depend in no small part on how Star Fleet Marines itself turns out once it's published; but there could still be scope for some kind of "monster" scenario for that game system, in my view at least.

Almost none of the pre-existing "monsters" would work in that context, anyway; so why not threaten one's Marines (and one's hapless civilians) with a Fate Worse Than Death?


(Ooh, here's another idea; alongside "historical" Wasp People and Yeney ships with non-tactical warp, maybe there could also be conjectural warp-powered units for each side? A nightmare scenario indeed...)

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Meh, with conjectural warp powered units for the Paravians, Carnivons, and Peladine, how much more conjectural warp-powered units are you going to need?

I agree monster scenarios would be good for SFM:A, I have one in mind based on SVC's joke on the FC blog about spending cuts leaving National Guard armouries unprepared for the zombie apocalypse. Basically the zombies can only attack in close combat but if they succeed they convert the target unit into a zombie unit.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 06:40 pm: Edit

I'm still working out the Bis'en/Korlivilar connection. We'll see how it goes.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 06:45 pm: Edit

Xander Fulton:

You need to take some time to do more research on the Romulans, as a lot of what you have said in this topic is contrary to published data.

The Romulans did not survive because their capitals were too far from Confederation space to successfully invade. They survived because the Gorns had a deep psychological shock at being involved in the extermination of an entire (however violent and genocidally bent on the destruction of the Gorns) intelligent species when the Paravians were wiped out. As a result of that shock, the Gorns were perfectly happy to just keep the Romulans in their place (sabotaged Romulan efforts to develop warp technology) and generally waited for the Romulans to "grow up" . . . which the Romulans did, but not in the way the Gorns were hoping.

The Romulans on their part had (in addition to their efforts to invade and conquer the Gorns and the Federation) their own "warp powered invasion" to contend with. The Orion Pirate Kingdoms occupied parts of Romulan space and the Romulans launched an "extermination campaign" within their own space in Y113 that succeeded in eliminating most of the Orion bases.

The above is recorded Star Fleet Universe history and is not going to be changed.

As to the Peladine. Again, the history is not being properly understood. The Peladine AS CURRENTLY WRITTEN (emphasis) in Stellar Shadows Journal and Module E4 had no "W" series ships when the Lyrans showed up. The reason for this is very plainly stated in their history: They scrapped them all. The Peladine had a very efficient recycling system and having decided to build a modern warp powered fleet they scrapped the existing ships to do so. They fielded modern (by middle years standards) heavy cruisers, light cruisers, destroyers, and frigates IN SQUADRON STRENGTH by Y121, i.e., by Y121 they had at least a dozen modern (by Middle Years standards) warships equipped with phasers, plasma torpedoes, and drones. There is no current accounting for how many additional ships they built (or had under construction) by Y128 or Y129, but the history notes "not many were planned" and there was "no sense of urgency." There is no specific year for when the Lyrans arrived in the Peladine system, but the Peladine had not left it yet (or what ships had were hastily recalled would be another interpretation, but the key point is that there were still no Peladine colonies outside of their home system). The history says that the Lyrans took "a little over a decade" to complete the conquest of the Peladine system, which was done by Y140, but that from their arrival in the Peladine system they swept the Peladine from space in "a few weeks." The delay in the conquest was not from the staunch defense put up by the Peladine fleet, but by the simple refusal of the planetary population to surrender to the inevitable (perhaps due to Lyran culinary practices on prisoners of war).

So there simply is not a historical basis for Peladine W series ships to have engaged in combat with anyone, and the lack of any "martial history" would make it unlikely that any "W" series ship was retained even as a museum ship (particularly given the Peladine mania for recycling).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 11:25 am: Edit

The Tholians don't usually get much in the "Y" modules because they are already at a higher tech level. But it occurred to me that there might be a place for a DD (Archeo-Tholian version) with particle cannons instead of disruptors. The Tholians can't produce PCs in this galaxy so the backstory would be that the ship was built using PCs salvaged from a wrecked NFF or NDD that was too badly damaged to repair. It would be unique, as the only Archeo-Tholian ship ever to use PCs. I think there are two plausible fates for the ship.

1. It was destroyed in combat, perhaps during the EY, perhaps very early in the MY.

2. The PCs were too difficult to repair, whether due to battle damage or ordinary wear and tear. Repairs required components that the Tholians were unable to produce. They salvaged some components from the Neo-Tholian ships for use as spare parts. But when those were all used up, the ship was refitted as a standard disruptor-armed DD.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Actually, ...

How about making a particle cannon armed DD into a *predecessor* of the standard DD. It was made to carry the two salvagable particle cannons they could retrieve from their destroyed NDD/NFFs. They knew it was a short term fix, but it gave them a little more firepower than they otherwise would have had. Once disruptor technology was captured, the early DD had its armament replaced and new "modern" DDs were constructed.

That gives the Tholians the PC-armed archeo- ship you want, and even gives them a DD-class ship just a bit earlier than they otherwise would have.

I just don't see the Tholians needlessly confusing their fleet operations by mixing weapons when it just isn't needed. Rather, I think it would make a great stop-gap solution while they get disruptor technology and build up production to make them.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 03:27 pm: Edit

The last particle cannon equipped ship was lost in Y107 in combat with the Klingons, after this ship was lost, the Tholians were ". . . unable to produce or maintain particle cannons, . . ." [(R7.72) in Module Y1].

Tholian destroyers were in "squadron service" in Y115, which allows a prototype no earlier than Y113.

At this juncture, if you are going to do this at all, you get into the question of why not build them even earlier with phaser-1s replacing the disruptors? (No, I am not proposing such a ship, either as an early ship or as an alternative design.)

The Tholians acquired Klingon disruptor technology in Y110.

Given the date for the Destroyer (Y113 for earliest prototype) and the date disruptor technology was captured (Y110) and the date the last particle cannon equipped ship was destroyed (Y107), I just do not see particle cannon equipped DD outside of the simulators.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 05:24 pm: Edit

What about a kind of 'heavy corvette'?

Replace one of the four forward phasers on the PC with a particle cannon. Not as good as a destroyer...but maybe 'good enough' for its potential limited use.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Xander Fulton:

Given the examples of the Photon Corvette and the Disruptor Corvette, I do not see you getting one particle cannon in exchange for one phaser.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 06:10 pm: Edit

SPP,

Here's a possible rationale for Xander's suggestion.

I note first that based on Orion option mounts and Tholian ships that swap out disruptors for phasers (CA/CPA, Arachnid/Arachnid-P) or photon torpedoes (DD/DDP, CA/CAP, etc.), it seems likely that the disruptor, photon, and phaser-1 are all reasonably close in bulk and mass. That raises the question, why does the DPC lose 2 phasers to gain 1 disruptor? Possible answer - The Tholians could have physically installed a disruptor in the space after removing only one phaser-1 but they were dealing with unfamiliar technology and wanted to be on the safe side. The space made available by removing the second phaser was used for extra structural support. This turned out to be unnecessary but since the few DPCs built were intended primarily as test beds and never intended to be the primary platforms for disruptors, the Tholians never bothered to redesign them. Decades later, they followed the same "play it safe" philosophy when they were testing photon torpedoes.

Now we come to our hypothetical particle cannon salvaged from a wrecked NFF. The Tholians are well familiar with this technology, even if they can't build any more of them. They already know that they can build a PC with 3 phaser-1s and a particle cannon without endangering the hull.

If you don't like my rationale, that's fine. The Tholians certainly don't need any sort of Archeo design with a particle cannon. But if such a design, as a unique ship, would make an interesting addition to Y4, I think there's enough wiggle room to justify a 3xphaser-1 version.

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 01:51 am: Edit

I too would like to see the Tholians get some more stuff for the early years. How about this for Tholians in Y4:

1. A NDD with web generator instead of web caster and/or Ph-1s instead of PCs. Given the difficulty of repairing those systems perhaps they would be replaced with the next best thing.

2. A captured/converted ship from a neighboring empire. I know, I know, captured/converted ships are 'auto-rejects' but if anyone would make use of them it would be the early years Tholians. I am envisioning an F4 with Ph-1s instead of DISR and the drone replaced with Shuttle. I think the Tholians might have some difficulty putting web generators on a hull of foreign manufacture. (I don't know, though, the web is the characteristic Tholian system.)

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 02:43 am: Edit

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Quote:

A NDD with web generator instead of web caster and/or Ph-1s instead of PCs. Given the difficulty of repairing those systems perhaps they would be replaced with the next best thing

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Quote:

The Romulans did not survive because their capitals were too far from Confederation space to successfully invade. They survived because the Gorns had a deep psychological shock at being involved in the extermination of an entire (however violent and genocidally bent on the destruction of the Gorns) intelligent species when the Paravians were wiped out. As a result of that shock, the Gorns were perfectly happy to just keep the Romulans in their place (sabotaged Romulan efforts to develop warp technology) and generally waited for the Romulans to "grow up" . . . which the Romulans did, but not in the way the Gorns were hoping.

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By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 10:05 am: Edit

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Quote:

I think the Tholians might have some difficulty putting web generators on a hull of foreign manufacture.

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By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Tholian NDDs and NFFs.

There were two NDDs and four NFFs.

The first NDD went down in Y92.

The second NDD went down in Y98.

The first NFF went down in Y89. [Picked off by the Romulans. Yes it specifically says the ship was destroyed by the sublight Romulans, probably while the Tholians were getting their first introduction to seeking plasma-R torpedoes. Probably by Xander Fulton's great, great, great uncle on his mother's side of the family no doubt (GRIN). And remember, Y89 is when the ROMULANS ATTACKED THE THOLIANS (emphasis, not shouting).]

We do not have current data on when the second and third NFFs went down, only that both of them, and the last which was destroyed in Y107, were destroyed in combat with the Klingons.

The ships were first engaged in combat in Y83. The first NDD went down in the ninth year. The second NDD went down in the fifteenth year. The first NFF went down in the sixth year, and the last in the 24th year.

The available spare parts for those ships (the command modules were "common" and could be replaced if lost) that were unique to them (not needed or useable by the corvettes or other ships) became increasingly centralized.

There were six ships in Y83. Five in Y89. A maximum of four in Y92. A maximum of three in Y98. And by Y107 only one. Again, we do not know what years two of the NFFs were lost in between Y89 and Y107, but it is probable that both were lost between Y92 and Y102 (the period of the "Great Klingo-Tholian War") since that period also saw the loss of both NDDs.

So, at this juncture, I find it unlikely that the NDDs or NFFs would have been downgraded as suggested.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

The background for the Disruptor Patrol Corvette notes that it was a test bed, and two were built, there are three official names for Disruptor Patrol Corvettes, indicating a third was built.

Worse, given the small size of the Tholian fleet, if your proposal was correct, at some point the DPCs would have been upgraded to reinstall the last phaser. In essence, when the Tholians figured out the mounting system used by the DDs, Cs, and Ds, they would have done the relatively minor refit to increase the firepower of the DPC by adding the phaser back in and reducing the space needed for the disruptor.

The only real reason they would not have done this would have been if the ships had been destroyed, and the DPC+ establishes that the ships (or at least a ship) was still in service and could be upgraded at a later date.

Further, SVC is of the opinion that the Tholians "reused names" and replaced some lost ships with new ships with the same names. The point being that new DPCs may have been built as replacements for lost DPCs, and if so, would have been modified while under construction to have the extra phaser added if your theory was correct.