You say "more wars" like that is a bad thing. This is a war game! We want more wars! That's the whole point!

Besides, it isn't that hard to jury-rig things to keep the Romulans in check so they don't expand more (or much more) than done historically. Quite frankly, the easiest way to check them is to simply have a civil war at some point. If one house is gaining too much power, the other houses would not hesitate to gang up on it, even to the detriment of the Romulan Empire as a whole.

So, you can do it without throwing "history" completely out the window.

No, the Romulans would not have totally new weapons that were completely made up in that scenario. They don't need to; their technology is good enough as it is. But, since I am comparing them to the Peladine, not the Andromedans, this shouldn't matter. Quite frankly, the Peladine wouldn't getting any new weapons*, either, so I don't see that as an issue.

[*] Well, spiffy new weapons. I suppose if they are to have totally new W-series or Y-series ships created, they might have some new crappy weapon invented. But, with all of the ISC W-crap weapons and the '5 hex range plasma bolt' weapon, any new weapon is just going to be some variation of one of those. So, eh, knock yourself out if you want.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Sunday, September 11, 2011 - 03:48 pm: Edit

One of the hooks of the 'Andromedan Threat File' was that a few of the ships weren't strictly fictional - for example, the dissector-beam variants. None were *deployed*, but since Andromedan technology had stalled apparently in their distant past, this was simply a case of them not deploying ships, yet, of a type they obviously already had. In the alternate future, they apparently HAD finished some of these and were using them.

Additionally, Module C3A had the 'Fall of Demorak' historical campaign detailing the collapse of the LDR capital. I'm not sure what the Romulan Threat File would have that would contain historical touch-points.

Also, historically, the Romulans developed the 'War Eagle', 'Battlehawk', etc upgrades as their W-type ships (more or less) at the same time other races were deploying General War-era ships. Part of the problem with a 'threat file', though, is that Star Fleet would almost certainly have not anticipated their development in this specific direction.

Not least of which - the cloaking device, itself, came as a big surprise to Star Fleet (both in the original series episode, and in the paralleled story in CL# 43). Remember that the Romulans hadn't even developed the *first* version of their sensor deflecting technology (in the form of the masking device) until 50 years after Star Fleet had lost contact with them. So there would be no cloaking devices in a Romulan Threat File, and of all things, I think that is what makes Romulans particularly unique/interesting.

Oh, and don't forget plasma, either. Even the very first version of it - bolted plasma - the Romulans didn't develop until 20 years after the First Federation-Romulan War ended.

"After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mr. Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves."

About the only thing known to Star Fleet is that they'd be painted with a great Bird of Prey on them. (That the ships would, in fact, be almost identical to the ones they fought last time was...well...*cough*...anyway...)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, September 11, 2011 - 10:38 pm: Edit

If you want to put a brake on early warp Romulans you could do a few things:

*Have the first wave of the Klingon invasion go ahead, only to be cut off by the Holdfast arrival. The Klingons would not get too far into Romulan space, but just far enough to draw the attention of the Feds and Gorns. In such a case, an early warp Romulan Empire would have the issue of dealing with the cut-off Klingons.

*Have an early warp Romulan survey ship head further east than they did historically (or perhaps oblige the Gorns to step up their own eastward explorations), leading to earlier contact with the ISC.


Oh, here's another thought; if there was an earlier Treaty of Smarba, could that lead to some early Kestrels, too? (Or, here's one; if such a treaty were to involve the salw of W-era Kestrels, perhaps that could in turn spark a Y-era fleet of early Hawks?)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 12, 2011 - 09:00 am: Edit

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*Have an early warp Romulan survey ship head further east than they did historically (or perhaps oblige the Gorns to step up their own eastward explorations), leading to earlier contact with the ISC.

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Oh, here's another thought; if there was an earlier Treaty of Smarba, could that lead to some early Kestrels, too? (Or, here's one; if such a treaty were to involve the salw of W-era Kestrels, perhaps that could in turn spark a Y-era fleet of early Hawks?)

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By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Monday, September 12, 2011 - 11:42 am: Edit

Have a Vulcan/Romulan revival... Vulcan splinter group head to Romulous to bring peace and technology to their wayward brothers, Logically the Romulans will see the benifits and peacefull join the Federation. Of course the Romulans take the technology and build brand new ships to incorporate the Federation into the Romulan empire. Not quite what the idealistic Vulcans thought would happen. No treaty of Smarba, unhappy Gorns(who see the Federation as willfully enabling maniacs)perhaps the Gorn can find and ally with the ISC to oppose the warlike Romulans. and a Federation with a big threat on it's border

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 12, 2011 - 02:01 pm: Edit

"Logical" does not mean "stupid". While the Vulcan may have some idealistic streaks (*may*; I am not sure), they are, above all, not stupid. Actually logic would assume the Romulans would just take the technology and kill/imprison the Vulcans (as you postulate). So, unless you want your alternative Vulcans to be blindingly stupid, that won't work.

(This all ignores the fact that the Vulcans [and everyone else] didn't even know that the Romulans were the "lost 13th tribe" of wayward Vulcans until around Y150.)

[Yes, the "lost 13th tribe" is a joke. There is no such thing as "tribes" of Vulcans, much less a 13th tribe.]

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 10:00 am: Edit

No one says all Vulcan's are wise, you can be very intelegent and still be unwise. You don't have to to be stupid to demonstrate folly(though it does help)

I think the cannon has protrayed Vulcan's as being arrogant to the point of being unwise.

So to expand the point, a small group of Vulcan's dicover Romulans are a Vulcan off shoot, decide that they are less technologically advanced(obviously due to the lack of logical discipline), and surmise that they are the (to use your words) the lost 13th tribe (though I admit I do like the symbolism )

Using the faulty premise, that they would appreciate the benifits of Vulcan Logical teachings (afterall who wouldn't ) and decide to deliver the logical teachings with the technology to allow them to see that peacefully joining the Federation as equals is the most logical solution for everyone.

Of course the Romulans have no desire for the logical teachings but really do want the technology, are willing to put up with the philosophical ramblings to aquire the technical know how.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 10:41 am: Edit

Canon didn't portray them as arrogant and unwise until Enterprise, as far as I've seen. And that's far beyond the scope of the canon that matters to the SFU.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 11:57 am: Edit

However; McCoy often refereed to Spock as arrogant, and the few Vulcans portrayed often had an air of aloofness, and superiority. Furthermore the episode with the Space Amoeba, Spock refers to the Intrepid's crew as being in shock and unable to comprehend/accept what killed them. Vulcan's do have both blind and weak spots.

Vulcans would have also observed that while other races may be ruled by emotion in the short run, they can be as coldly logical as Vulcans when it comes to long range planning.

Combining both of the above, I could see a group of Vulcans believing that the Romulans would see the error of their ways, and logically conclude that they should abandon the ways of Romulus and become good little Vulcans.

oopsie

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Wait. Let's remember something here: the Romulans became the Romulans because they refused to accept Surak's teachings. They decided it was better to leave and risk all that entails, rather than to submit to 'logic'. This is their founding premise. This is the whole reason they exist at all! Logic would quite blatantly dictate that this is probably not going to change, or at least change easily.

People would need to be way beyond arrogant or stupid to even think the Romulans are going to make such a fundamental change. They would need to be outright insane. There might be the occasional madman that would think so, but "Vulcans" as a group would not think like that. I would argue that any arrogance they have would actually prevent them from considering that possibility, not help it. (And a single renegade madman can't bootstrap the Romulans. It would take way more effort and way more people to do so.)

And, again, you are ignoring the much, much larger issue: the Vulcans (and, indeed, the whole Federation) did not know what the Romulans were until at most a decade prior to the Treaty of Smarba. Giving them warp technology a decade prior to the Treaty of Smarba would have made zero difference to their technological development. (In fact, it would actually harm it, if the Treaty of Smarba were to be prevented.) To move this way earlier would make such a fundamental change to the Vulcan, Romulan, and Federation history that you might as well do something more coherent to give the Romulans warp power early.

To be perfectly blunt, the best way to give the Romulans early warp is to simply prevent the inter-house/Gorn raid from succeeding. Say that the Gorn team mistakenly killed the team from the other house, then the remains of the Gorn team were easily repulsed by the actual defenders. The next best way is to simply tweak the house system so it is less contentious so that the warp development just progressed normally.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 02:54 pm: Edit

The arguments of pseudo-Vulcans are infinite.

And yes, the easiest, simplist way to 'give' the Rommies tacwarp is to change, very slightly, the result of the now-legendary Gorn raid.

Or have there be multiple research programs, and at least one of them succeeded.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - 09:50 am: Edit

I am not saying all of Vulcan knew and conspired to bring the Romulans technology, but a small group. Who perhaps discovered an old derelict Romulan war ship, when they boarded it, discovered the Romulans were Vulcans. They decided to keep it a secret, as they were concerned how the rest of the Federation would react to the information. Vulcan can keep secrets look to their reproductive habits, that they concealed from the rest of the Federation.
Proceeding logical they would want to find a solution to bringing the Romulans into the Federation, and bringing the teaching of Surak to the lost tribe, who were backward technologically and obviously still suffering the plagues of emotion. What better way to entice them into the teaching of Surak then with the technology they are lacking?
Seems logical to me hehehehehehehe

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - 10:01 am: Edit

You'll have to change more than the results of the raid; you'll need to change the parameters of it. I've played that scenario and there's simply no way for the Gorn to not win.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - 10:11 am: Edit

A political change perhaps? A strong Praetor pushes to "git 'er done" and manages to make it happen. After they get warp they fall back into squabbling with each other as before.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Hm. What about moving the Peladine to Romulan space instead of Lyran? Peaceful warp-powered society gets mowed under by the slow-but-dangerous Romulans, who then steal tactical warp.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Troy Latta:

Definitely not doable. Aspects of the Peladine background are already incorporated into the general Star Fleet Universe background. See Prime Directive which includes mention of them for example.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Jim,

Again, what you are describe is not "logic". Logic will strongly indicate such an attempt will have zero impact or effect on the Romulans. That is the logical conclusion.

But I am not the one you have to convince. You will need to convince SPP that such a group of Vulcan nutters would A) happen and B) succeed.

Troy,

The space battle is actually fairly irrelevant. The main thing is the surface raid. If the surface raid fails, the mission fails, regardless of what happens in the ship battle.

In the story, the Gorn raid partially succeeds. It took the rival Romulan raid to finish the deed. So, to change it around, have the rival Romulan raiders and the Gorn raiders meet prior to getting to the lab. The Gorns wipe out the rival Romulans, but lose too many soldiers. The defense against the Gorns is successful and the scientist (and the entire lab) is preserved. (Of course, this assumes that both the Gorn and Romulan nuclear bombs don't go off.)

Or, even more simplistically, change NOTHING in the story. Let it all unfold unchanged. Too bad it was the wrong lab! The first scientist shown (running the computer simulations) was not the scientist in the destroyed lab (who was shot in the head). Instead, the research continues unabated, despite the seeming success of the raids.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - 01:37 pm: Edit

In all seriousness, when you are messing with timelines, it is easy enough to have the butterfly flap his wings.

The key scientist spent an extra night working on his program, and with its success, departed the station with his data to show his superiors (who obviously could not be bothered to travel to such a distant and remote and thus uncomfortable station), and thus the key scientist and his data simply were not there when the raid occurred, but already en route. The raid is thus both a success, and a failure by virtue of actually being too late.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, September 15, 2011 - 12:57 am: Edit

Alternatively, the idea of early warp Romulans could be a means of fleshing out the "Paravian Reality" from SSJ2/CL28; to show the kind of ships the refugee Gorns helped the Romulans build in order to fend off encroaching Raid Motherships.


(That could be another good excuse to do a W- and/or Y-era RMS for the Paravians; even if such hulls proved to be purely conjectural in the historical timeline, they could help facilitate the first long-range raids on Romulan space in the Paravian Reality.)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, September 15, 2011 - 09:03 am: Edit

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Alternatively, the idea of early warp Romulans could be a means of fleshing out the "Paravian Reality" from SSJ2/CL28; to show the kind of ships the refugee Gorns helped the Romulans build in order to fend off encroaching Raid Motherships.

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By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, September 15, 2011 - 08:11 pm: Edit

The main problem I see is how does this to anything but bring in the Eagle Series early (maybe adding a larger Eagle between the War Eagle and Vulture or an improved Snipe)??