By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 02:14 pm: Edit

X1 ships still needed: Hydran X-Frigates.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 09:32 pm: Edit

X-Tugs, LTTs, FFTs, pods??
Commando ships, escorts and carriers for those that did not get them in X1R?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 10:46 am: Edit

As noted in separate request topics, an ISC SRX would be nice (and perhaps justified by the political influence of the inquisitive Q'naabians) as might an X-tech diplomatic cruiser for the Klingons (unless they'd use a regular DX for the role instead).

That said, if there aren't that many X1-era ships in the Alpha Octant left to do, it would be nice to see some from Omega and the LMC show up at some point. (Omega X-ships are confirmed to exist in the Omega timeline; Magellanic X-ships would have to wait until after Operation Unity, but it's known that at least the Jindarians in the Cloud adopt their own advanced technology designs after Y202.)

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 11:27 am: Edit

Seltorians need their CLX, DDX. Some empires need their HDW-Xs (Vudar, Jindarian, Seltorian).

There were several X-ships in recent Captain's Logs that were not in X1R.

Hydran FFXs and DWXs.

X-Stellar Fortress.

Are their going to be X-POLs? X-Survey ships for everyone?

The X-FRD from Fed & Empire has not been added yet.

A decision needs to be made about freighters, auxiliaries, monitors and the like. Eventually X-tech would be common enough for these units to receive it. Maybe they get XP refits in the 1X era, and !X tech in the 2X era?

I am not saying all or even any of the above need to be included, but they need to be considered if they will be in the universe or not.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 11:50 am: Edit

Klingon BX.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 12:05 pm: Edit

I could see SRX SSDs for each race, but only really see a few actually being built. The Feds and ISC being the most likely. A Klingon DRX might be justified with them having to make the best of surveying way off in the Lyran Far Stars.

Of course, I would love to see a Lyran SRX just because I've always kinda liked their SR (especially with it's TG capacity).

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 12:27 pm: Edit

If SRXs are needed, I think the Gorn would use the HDX hull for theirs. A CMX hull would be more capable, but also more costly. A survey loadout of the HBDX would be too small for many missions and if it got lost it would cost more to replace.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 12:32 pm: Edit

I think I'm the one who got this topic rolling, due to a post yesterday in a different topic about there still being a few X1 ships that were needed. I had 4 specific ships in mind as the ones that were most needed, but before I discuss them I should probably mention what I meant by "needed".

In a nutshell, I think a ship is "needed" if there is a capability that would be valuable to the empire in question and that no current ship can fill, or at least cannot fill cost effectively. Off course, this also assumes the empire in question has the technological capability to fill that capability gap.

Let me illustrate with a quick example of what I mean by "needed". For Module X-1R, I pushed for the inclusion of a Tholian X-cruiser that did not have a webcaster. I believe this was needed to a combination of 3 circumstances. The first is that, based on extrapolations from the number of XTPs various empires get in F&E, the Tholians probably have a very high percentage of X-ships in their late war/post war fleet. They can't build as many X-ships in raw numbers as the major races can. But their fleet is very small and once X-tech becomes available in F&E they get a large number of XTPs relative to the size of their economy. So while they have few X-ships in absolute terms, they may well be near the top in the percentage of their fleet that is X-tech. The second circumstance is that web casters are severely limited in this galaxy and there is no indication that this will change within the time covered by SFB. The third circumstance is that the Tholian DDX, while a capable ship for its cost, is small, underpowered, and underarmed by the standards of X-tech destroyers. It seemed to me the Tholians had a need for something that was more powerful than the DDX but that wouldn't require one of the rare webcasters. They could actually build more X-cruisers than they could supply web casters for, based on F&E. So I pushed for a non-web caster X-cruiser in X-1R (and was very happy to see that they actually got 3 such ships, the CAX, PAX, and CWX). Note that the "need" was created by all 3 circumstances in combination. The limiting factor on X-cruiser production (prior to X-1R) was web caster availability. If the Tholians had had either fewer XTPs or unlimited web caster production (subject to overall economy) then presumably they would have built all X-cruisers as CCXs or CPXs, and would not have needed a CWX, CAX, or PAX. Or if the Tholian DDX had been a heavy hitter on the order of the Federation DDX (which is actually closer in firepower to most empires' CLXs than their DDXs), they could have built DDXs after they had used up all their available webcasters.

Later this afternoon I will post the 4 specific X-ships that I think are most needed, along with my rationale for why I think they are needed. But other posters will have different criteria for what it means for a ship to be needed, and therefore other priorities regarding what is "most" needed.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Nick Samaras:

X-FRD: See (R1.81) in Module R11.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Okay, I'm back... and there was much rejoicing.

Considering my comments in my previous post, here are the X-ships I think are most needed, and why.

Federation Drone Bombardment Destroyer

Description
Start with Fed DDX. Change the photons to Bx (or Gx) drone racks. Change either 2 or 4 phasers to Special Sensors. Change AWR to cargo.

Why is it needed?
The Federation does not seem to have been as heavily into drone bombardment as the Kzinti or Klingons, but they did use it from time to time. Both the Kzinti and Klingons received X-tech drone bombardment cruisers in Module X-1R, based on their CMX and D5X respectively. This suggests that drone bombardment was still a viable tactic in the X-tech era. (Had only the Kzinti built drone bombardment X-ships, it might have been passed off as the idiosyncrasy of a particular empire, comparable to the Hydrans - and only the Hydrans - building X-fighters.) If the mission itself is still viable, the Feds would probably not abandon the capability. Why X-ships? Presumably because the greater strategic speed and range of an X-ship meant that it could bombard targets that a non-X drone bombardment ship would be unable to attack. The Feds don't have (yet) an NCLX for the base hull but their DDX is large enough that it can be converted to a drone bombardment ship that is only a bit less capable than the Klingon or Kzinti counterparts, and would be cheaper to build.

X-tech version of Federation DDL

Description
Start with Fed DDX. Change the 2 of the photons to type-L plasma torpedoes.

Why is it needed?
The mission is hunting cloaked ships with carronades, something no Federation X-ship can currently do. The question is whether the proposed ship is technologically reasonable, or is it "tech sloshing" to give the Feds type-L plasma? I will argue that it is not "tech sloshing". The Federation has no X-ships with L-torps currently, but they can give non-X ships L-torps under the current rules, using the XP-upgrade on a ship with Type-F plasma torps. That suggests their should be no technological obstacle to the Feds building the proposed ship, and the mission of hunting cloaked enemies will remain important in the X-tech era.

Tholian CWX-based Scout

Description
Start with Tholian CWX. Change the disruptors to Special Sensors.

Why is it needed?
The Tholians tend to be at an EW disdvantage (unless defending a base) because they lack special gizmos like the ECM drone, ECM plasma, or Ion Pulse Generator. But one would expect them to at least mitigate the disadvantages they can do something about. Since Module X-1R, most empires have an advanced scout with both 4 (or more, in the case of the Lyrans) special sensors and X-cruiser (usually light cruiser, but heavy cruiser in a few cases) power levels. The Tholian X-scouts are not really competitive with these ships. The DDX-based SCX has 4 special sensors but very limited power by X-standards. The CWX-based PFT generates X-tech light cruiser power, but only has two special sensors. An X-tech version of their CWS (or in other words a scout version of their CWX) seems a cost effective way of minimizing their EW disadvantage and there do not appear to be any technology problems associated with building such a ship.

Seltorian X-scout

Description
Start with Selt DDX (or CLX if they ever get such a ship). Change the heavy weapons to Special Sensors.

Why is it needed?
Currently the (unbuilt variant) Seltorian X-ships can fight duels. But they are at a huge disadvantage in squadron actions. A wider range of ships (like the CLX) to choose from would be nice. But what they need if they are going to be viable in X-tech squadron battles is an X-scout. Even the under-powered Tholian SCX outclasses the non-existant Seltorian SCX.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Comments on above proposals. Largely I agree with the idea they should exist but for different reasons. All IMHO.

Fed DBX (?): I don't think the fact that Klingons and Kzinti have DB x-ships is a reasons the Feds would go this route. I think those empires did it more out of tradition. I do think that an admiral may have been interested in exploring the tactical and strategic uses for such a vessel and so may have allowed one or two to be built.

Fed DDLX: I thought there was one [shrug]. Cloak hunting with carronades would be fun especially with two photons at the ready. If possible I could see an Admiral pushing for a few of these on the Eastern border.

Tholian CWSX: I think traditionally the Tholians fight major battles near bases so their not so much at an EW disadvantage. That said, in the X-tech era they do seem to be condicting more expiditionary type missions (or rather planning to conduct them).

Seltorian X-scout: I agree. If there is going to be a conjectural fleet it should be fully rounded out.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Fed DDL: The Federation used very few plasma torpedoes. I don't see them acquiring X-technology for a system they barely used.

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 09:16 pm: Edit

Klingon D7PX Advanced Heavy PF Tender

Why? An AWEsome RTN hunter!

Suggested conversion of the DX: replace deckhouse with the D6P deckhouse, replace rear tractor/mech links with Drone GX, replace two wing phasers with special sensors, add mechlinks to the boom tractors. Maybe add on another admin shuttle, although there isn't any room for it without 'squishing' it in.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 09:28 pm: Edit

A PFT is normally going to replace the heavy weapons with special sensors, not the wing phasers imo.

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Have another look at the D6P. It keeps the disruptors and has the special sensors in the wing positions.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Slightly different idea, for XP.

X-Batts, historically when battery technology improves, it is used in existing designs, as such I think this would the one and ONLY system that would be used on gunboats. I list this as more of an XP idea to keep the 1 point of power per impulse limit in place, to reflect that it is a simple battery swap out.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Richard Eitzen,

1. They actually used plasma torps a bit more than "barely". It's true that it was not a primary Federation weapon but they used it on at least one dreadnought (the Entente DNF), three heavy battlecruisers (Bismarck, Forrest, and Ogarkov), an unknown number of DDLs (but the status of this ship is listed as Regular Production Warship in the Master Annex Files) and one or two FFL frigates. I grant you that this is still a very small number compared to their photon torpedo useage. But I do think it's enough to justify a few X-ships with the technology. After all, the Tholians did build photon torpedo X-ships, the Klingons and Lyrans built X-tech maulers, and the the Klingons built X-tech SFG ships. All of these were weapons not in "widespread" use by the respective empires. If a weapon is useful enough, it will be adapted for X-tech, if possible. This brings me to my second point.

2. A "DDLX" combining type-L plasma torpedoes with X-tech capabilities would be a more efficient cloaked-ship hunter than anything the Feds currently have. It meets the "usefulness" criteria.

3. You haven't yet addressed my point from my 1:57 PM post that

---

Quote:

but they can give non-X ships L-torps under the current rules, using the XP-upgrade on a ship with Type-F plasma torps.

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 10:41 pm: Edit

A very small number compared to photon usage = barely. You might want to rethink your rebuttals in the future. :-)

I missed your 1:57 point. Ah well, I had forgotten that. Obviously if Feds can add them to existing non-advanced technology ships, then they could make full 1X designs that use them (if they chose to do it).

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 11:12 pm: Edit

To clarify my 09:16 pm post, by "replace rear tractor/mech links with Drone GX"; I meant: "replace waist tractor/mech links with Drone GX".

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 11:35 pm: Edit

Dixon, the D6DP from R9 page 20 might be what you are looking for.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 01:28 pm: Edit

There are currently 16 empires in the Alpha Octant.

Is it possible to come up with at least 47 ships that are wanted by these empires?

All but one would need to be even numbers of SSDs (there 48th page would be the table of contents).

Is it possible to come up with more than 47 needed ships, but be certain that the all of the needed ships come in even numbers except for one (which gets the back page of the table of contents)?

Sure, we could do a Seltorian CLX (missing ship), FFX (missing ship), SCX (missing ship), PFTX (missing ship), HDDX (missing ship), DNLX (other empires got conjectural Advanced Technology Light Dreadnoughts), but if we did them are there enough players that want to buy them? (And that is only six pages, IF all of them were done.)

One of the Empires is the LDR, and I am not sure there is anything "X" left to do for them. I mean, does anyone really want a POLX, FFX, DDX, and CLX as conjectural LDR X-Ships?

Another Empire is the WYN, what is left for them? X-PFT? X-Barracuda?

What about other empires?

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 01:30 pm: Edit

What about X-PFs?

I seem to recall some notes that the 'hot warp' engines were about the limits of the technology, but that still presents two directions that could be moved in:

- Warp engines as-is, but with other systems X-ified (better shields, X-batteries, X-weapons)

- Replace 'boosted' hot warp engines with 'regular' X-engines (maybe just 5 boxes each, then, of 'regular warp' instead of 3 warp + 3 booster pack)

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 02:40 pm: Edit

X-PFs/Heavy PFs
Your____ Text\_______/

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 03:11 pm: Edit

I thought most PFs ended up as ex-PFs after a while...

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 03:23 pm: Edit

Of course, I'd also be perfectly happy with a product (and maybe this is X2) where attrition unit defenses become SO robust that fighters and PFs become useless.

That would also (and, again, this would almost definitely have to be a MAJOR update, like X2) almost certainly mean that seeking weapons would become passe, too, which would be nice (speed up play a LOT!)

And that's not even HARD to do with plasma - we've already got carronades, that are more energy-effective than phasers out to range 5...so all we need to do is sacrifice the 'seeking' mode of plasma to really boost the accuracy of the plasma bolt (I'd love it if a bolt die roll could be adjusted for a 2d6 roll...a three-turn-arming weapon is just PAINFUL to risk on a single die roll).

However, the drone users would be sunk in such an environment. Feds probably wouldn't care - they've got their wonder weapon (X-photons...*shudders*), and even the Klinks would do alright focusing more on disruptors (too bad we can't get TMP stuff in...a disruptor-armed Klink ship with a pair of photon torpedoes in the boom would be awful nice). Kzinti, though? They wouldn't really survive in an attrition-unit-free world. On the other hand, by X2 it WILL have been a pretty long while in the alpha sector since a race was wiped out (the Carnivons and Paravians, about a century prior by that point). So who would really miss the Kzinti, anyway?

In any case, in a tech level where seeking weapons and attrition units ARE still viable, seeing some X-PFs does make sense.