Actually, I agree that SRXs for other Alpha empires might be good to see, too. It's noted that the Feds used a number of their GSXs to go on long-term deployments to the LMC to help hunt for Andro holdouts; one could imagine at least a few of their neighbours wanting to not lose out.

(Or miss the opportunity to send X-survey ships over to the Omega Octant, in the wake of the USS Sakharov's reports.)

Indeed, the Tholians could have one particular X-survey candidate; the Draco-Tholian ship Sojourner. It's noted that the ship, along with the escorts it arrived in the Holdfast with, eventually returned to the Draco Dwarf Galaxy in order to formally establish contact between the two groups of Tholian exiles. What if the Holdfast made use of the ship while it was a guest at the sphere, and offered to provide advanced technology to the Draco-Tholian arrivals in exchange?

(If the Dracos have any smaller Neo-Tholian hulls at Tholiax, like NDDs or NFFs, that could perhaps open the door to X-conversions of those, too.)

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Any 1X-PFs would probably be conjectural. Heavy PFs have already been published.

I've proposed a Kzinti CVX (with conjectural TADSX type fighters).

Some small ships have not been done as X-ships (ie Lyran FFX, Klingon E4X). Same with some DWXs. Escorts as X-ships have been mentioned as rejected by most races but could be done as conjectural units.

Whether these things are really needed is another question entirely.

I'll make a list of such things to get us started, I am not trying to say that any of these units NEED to be done.

Generic:
Fed: NCLX, CLX(CL#36), DDLX, FFLX, DBX
Klingon: D7PX, F6X, F5X, E4X
Romulan: SNAX, SNBX, KR versions of the above (KR F5X exists).
Kzinti: CVX(CVS), CLX(CL#37)
Gorn:
Orion: DBRX(CL#37, at least 2)
Tholian: NDDX, NFFX
Lyran: CLX(CL#37), JGPX(Built one, CL#36), FFX, XPF
Hydran: D7HX(CL#36), WARX( DDL, from an OLD Starletter), DWFX, DWHX, HNX, CUX
Andromedan: None
WYN: IDX(CL#37, ISC DD)
LDR: FFX
ISC: SRX, CWX(CL#37, at least 3), DWX
Jindarian:
Seltorian: DNLX
Vudar:

I guess you could do X-ship versions of police ships?
Escorts and commando ships are possible (Kzinti escort and Gorn commando ships were in X1R).

I always felt that if at least one race ever designed an X-PF it would be the Lyrans, who relied on PFs more than any other race (at least it appeared that way to me).

I looked through Captain's Log #23 and 27-43 to list the X-ships that appeared there that weren't in X1R.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 05:24 pm: Edit

The Klingon FX is the F5X (as opposed to a FWX based on the F5W).

I'm kinda thinking many of these could survive as Captain's Log ships, maybe putting together as a product when enough were published, or sell them as a e23 product.

In the end, as much as I like the idea of another X1 module, I don't want to see it displace other good products.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 06:08 pm: Edit

I'm rather with Donovan on the idea of 'X1B', actually. I mean, preference is to have a Y4 to finish fleshing out the Early Years races we still have missing...but if it was decided to be an X-era product next year, I'd REALLY rather it be a major overhaul of the system that X2 could be instead of 'just more ships' that X1B would have.

Maybe take the step of building on the homogenization of the fleets that was happening with HDWs and PFs to the next level with more unified weapons. Maybe not 'everyone gets photon torpedoes' (which could be interesting and connect with fans of the other series), but switch everyone over to direct fire weapons and eliminate attrition units and seeking weapons...taking advantage of that major change to really alter how ships fight. Take that opportunity to vastly reduce the number of platforms in play from each empire, too.

I'd love it if we got a product that was something more than just 'more cool ships', but an era change that resulted in major tactics changes.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 06:17 pm: Edit

The Klingon FX is the F5L. The F5 (as a KR) was done by the Romulans and only has seven phaser ones.

I'd rather X2 than X1B, but I'd rather X1B than Y4. I dunno about X1B though, needs more spice than what I listed in and of itself.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 06:28 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Maybe not 'everyone gets photon torpedoes' (which could be interesting and connect with fans of the other series)

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Quote:

switch everyone over to direct fire weapons and eliminate attribution units and seeking weapons

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By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 06:39 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Kzintis without drones? Hydrans without Stingers?? Gorns, Romulans, and ISC without seeking plasma???

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 07:36 pm: Edit

I think you are in too much of a hurry to delete some people's favorite races (and major ones at that).

Paperwork aside, direct fire only would be BORING. Simplifying drones would be a large help. Reducing the number of small plasma weapons that can clutter the board (ie Ds and Ks) would also help.

Indirectly this could be done by eliminating attrition units from most races (or at least reducing them to the larger ones so there would not be quite so many), which would reduce the need for rapid fire small plasma launchers.

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Tos: I meant an X-conversion of the D6P/D7P (they are functionally equivalent). I suggest the D7 rather than D6 as the D6 design is getting very old by the time of first gen. x-tech. But the distinction is really just fluff text...

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 08:39 pm: Edit

The problem with X1 as a product line is that first gen X-tech is really just conversions of existing designs. It says something to this effect in X0.0. (The Feds have a couple of exceptions with the NDD/DDX and the GVX carrier.) This makes it difficult to make anything that is truly different or unique.

Maybe some new and unique class could be introduced for the period of X1 ships. What this would be, I have no really good ideas. (Maybe X1 versions of Rob Cole's heavy cruiser based Strike PF Tenders used as RTN hunters?)

Edit: BY 'new and unique' I mean something that has no non-X tech version. Something that would, perhaps, only be possible using X-technology. Just throwing it out there...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 09:57 pm: Edit

That's pretty much what X2 is about.

X1 is to non-X ships more or less like Y-ships refitted to middle years tech were to Y-ships. It's not entirely like that, but close enough imo.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 09:59 pm: Edit

SPP,

I would rather see X2 then this. The question is, do we need to finish out X1 before moving to X2? Hence the lists of missing ships.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 10:07 pm: Edit

Not anymore than we need to finish any other product before X2, in my opinion.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 10:28 pm: Edit

Here's the list that I can think of for X1B, just putting it out their....

All:
NDSX (New Division Control Ship, PFs+superiority ftrs) Fed, Klingon, Rom (Farhawk?), Kzinti, Gorn, Hydran, Lyran, ISC (would have to be on a CAX-hull)
NSRX (New Survey ship) Fed, Klingon, Rom, Kzinti, Gorn, Hydran, Lyran, ISC

I can't see races using a CA-hull, when an NCA-hull can be used, since races probably don't expect survey ships that adventure out by themselves to last long against the andros....

Then individual designs:
Fed: ACSX (A-20s+Superiority, replacing the DCSX), NHVX (NPFTX), NHAX (X-Scout Carrier), NCDX (but I'm really in favor of Fed X-DB ships)
Kli: D7PX (the Fed's have the GVX, an XPFT)
Rom: FHBX (CVX), OMHX (Omnihawk-X, 3rd Gen DNLX, even though it's not really a DNL Fast Ship), RHX (Royalhawk-X, Plas-R X-ship, Unique), Farhawk-X
Kzi: CVX (based on the BCX-hull, not BCH-hull),
Gorn: CSX (CS w/ Plas-R, unique), DDX
Tho: DCSX (CA-hull that's a DCS), NDD, NFF (I 2nd that idea, even if UNV), CWVX
Ori: WRX, MRX, LVSX, SGSX (DCSX)
Hyd: MKVX, DWFX, DWHX, HNX, CUX (Someone else suggested this, so I second these)
Lyr: BCPX (this allows the Lyrans to have a command ship with a full PF flotilla, like the BCH/DN), FFX
LDR: FFX
WYN: CWVX
ISC: CVX, NDDX, NFFX
Selt: NCVX, NCPX (New PFT-X), CLX, FFX

I count 50 ships. Are they really GREAT ideas, or original, probably not.

One thing I would like to point out though, is that any "speciality" ship, like a Commando ship, Repair Ship, smaller PFTs, etc, are just not needed. The HDWX exists, so if an HDW needs to be converted to a Commando ship from a Combat version, it can. The HDWX is pretty much the same size as a CW, so provides similar capabilities. Why have a CWGX, when you can have a HDWX-G?

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 10:35 pm: Edit

That is pretty much my wish list!

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 11:53 pm: Edit

There are plenty of ships that could be upgraded to X-tech. It takes a bit more effort to identify the right ships to upgrade, but there will still be plenty of ships left over when we are done.

For example, when we last talked about this, a large minority insisted that X1R have BCHX (conjectural) ships made available. Granting this one wish is a fair number of pages.

As to X2, that was discussed online for a period of maybe two-years before we got tired of going around in a circle. X2 requires a major paradigm shift and would take much more time to develop and balance than pushing out a simple R-module. X2 has been published before and it was a flop. Its critical that ADB get the next X2 just exactly perfect, which just takes way too much development time and would displace too many other profitable projects. I'd love to see some X2 work being done, but the ROI isn't clear. The ROI on X1B can be easily extrapolated (by ADB, not by me).

A historical PFX is DOA (IMO the PFs are using tech very close to X-Tech made by the lowest bidder), but could be created as a conjectural unit. Before we go down this road we have to answer, will there be a K2 published? If there is a K2, perhaps with an Andro War focus, you could easily put dozens of PFTX class ships in. If K2 is penciled into the plan someday, that would be the logical place to introduce new PF variants, including conjectural X-type PFs. If K2 does not exist, there there are an awful lot of missing PFTX units that should find their way into X1B. An important question to answer before making an X1B list.

My preference would be that we create a X1B ship list and a K2 ship list simultaneously while the Steve's get to work refining the history of the Andro war. With two ship lists in hand, it shouldn't be hard to green light development of K2 sometime in the next few years.

I'll dig through my records and see which ships were discussed a few years ago but failed to make the X1R cut, then I'll post it here. I won't try to cross-reference it to the other suggestions listed, but eventually that will have to happen.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 03:20 am: Edit

I would think the number one thing would be the "standard X refit" of the heavy cruiser... Yeah there is room for wiggling so YOU can X refit your ship different, but there SHOULD be a relatively standard refit.

Something like:
Klingon: X disruptors, batteries and drone racks.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 12:15 pm: Edit

What I don't want to see is a repeat of what happened with Supplement 2, where the X2 ships were done before the X1 ships were fully defined.

While X1 is more fully defined this time around a similar thing has happened. They were designed on CC and CA hulls and then CCHs and NCAs were added to the game afterwards. The question was then "why didn't they build the x-ships on the newer types"?

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Thinking on things, I would say that idea for TGX's would be unlikely until the point that every ship coming off the line was X-tech. This is especially the case of the Feds, Kzinti, Klingons and others where the Tug is its own unique hull.

And even if they did come out, there are still a lot of questions about how TGX's would operate. Could they use non-X pods? Would a combat pod on an TGX operate with X-bonuses granted by the tug? Would we even dare allow X-battle pods or such?

And then there is the fact that an TGX would be a temptation for fleet commanders to grab them and use them on the line, especially the ones based on 'combat tugs' like the Klingon TGB.

That said, I could see the idea that a few FFTX's (or ones based on the DWT hull) be built. First of all, they would be based on a hull already in production, and one that is already of marginal power. An FFTX could be used to get vital supplies to hot spots very fast, and 2-3 could be built for the cost of a single TGX. I would still hold the restriction that all pods were inert. Lets face it, an FFTX carrying an operational BP, or CVA-P, could be unbalancing.

Just my thoughts.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 01:08 am: Edit

Donovan, the TGX class makes sense as part of the Andro campaign. A very fast freighter (forgive the oxymoron) makes more sense, but there's room for both. I forget what year that is, but it's late enough not to disturb any established history overmuch.

That your perfectly valid questions remain unanswered is perhaps why a TGX hasn't been published. Much care is needed to not break the system.

We have the opportunity to think outside the box. For example, what if a TGX did not gain any new warp power, but did gain strategic speed and a few phaser upgrades. Would it still break the game? Maybe not.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Low priority, but if looking for places to round out an SSD book: I'd like to see more X1 ships that show the design lessons each race learnt during the general war. As examples the Klingon DX and Hydran Ranger-X are good ships but it feels a little odd to me for each races most advanced ships to be built to the older layouts - FA Disruptors and only a small drone load (Klingon) or split arcs (Hydran).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 06:09 pm: Edit

That's because all first generation advanced technology ships are conversions of existing ship designs.

When the various empires designed ships to take advantage of the technology from the ground up, that was the beginning of the second generation advanced technology ship era.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Maybe that is a direction X1B could take. The first dedicated X-techs ships designed from the keel up with the technology. Could be used to introduce X2 prototype systems. Kinda be an X1.5 generation.

Given that this would mean ships first deploying after Y200, maybe a teaser of the Xork's could be there representing the first contact.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Well, I think there's no room for a 1.5X product myself. I would much rather see an actual new X2 product.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 09:00 pm: Edit

Actually, I think just the opposite that TGXs would be actually that useful, depending on it's use.

It helps the speed to get to a location to upgrade a MB/OB to a BS/BATS, but after that, having a TGX "working" the MB/OB upgrade shouldn't help it the process at all. Because what takes the longest is the upgrade. Who cares if the TGX can get their in 7 days instead of 10?

At least in F+E, you can't just "throw" additional manpower at an upgrade to decrease the time it takes to upgrade a base, unlike the real world.

I just don't think that a TGX would be all that more useful upgrading a base verses a TG-XP/NCA-TG-XP.

Now, a TGX would help deploy PDUs and resupply planets better, but upgrading bases, I don't think they would be that effective. If that's the case would empires really invest in them?