I don't know if it would be X1B or X2, but someone mentioned "new and different" and it sparked an idea:
What about an X-version of the old Gorn BB class? It hasn't been seen in over 100 years and it's something different that would probably be very effective as an x-tech ship.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, November 07, 2011 - 03:32 pm: Edit

They might make a new design that looked something like that... as an X2 ship, but they're not going to just do a refit of it and construct new ones, it's over 100 years old!

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Monday, November 07, 2011 - 04:59 pm: Edit

No no, not a refit. This would be new construction built to the pattern of the old, as opposed to mimicking the GW-era ships.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, November 07, 2011 - 05:40 pm: Edit

Then it would be a hundred year old design with new parts in it.

I cannot see any empire doing something like this without some reason that is not apparent to me.

If you are trying to say that it would just have the same outline, so to speak, but not use any of the original design otherwise, well of course they could. However, then it would be a second generation X-ship, not a 1st generation one.

In any case you seem to be trying to say 'let's do new and different', but then use something that's old. That's sort of a contradiction.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, November 07, 2011 - 11:36 pm: Edit

At least a few dedicated X tech ships make sense to me. The existing X ships are basically refits of existing ships or clearly modified versions of existing ship designs, not new designs based on the new capabilities.

If you look at X1 in the same way as EY to MY we've got the equivalent of the Fed CL, the old ship upgraded to new tech. But we don't really have the equivalent of the saucer designs, the new ships built from the ground up with the improved tech.

If building a NEW ship with X tech what might you do differently? More batteries because batteries are much more effective with X-tech (the single most improved system). Probably fewer heavy weapons because fast loading heavy weapons are energy hogs (double the power cost without double the generated power). More phasers because X-tech does nice things for phasers.

This probably risks making everyone look a bit too similar, but X1 doesn't last long before X2 comes in and replaces it, so one or two designs per race may be all there are, and you can still make a couple of designs per race with reasonable diversity.

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 01:04 am: Edit

When I made the suggestion earlier for "new and different" I had meant a unique conversion of an existing design not an entirely new design.

From Module X1:
"(X0.0)...X-ships produced during the period Y180-Y205 were all conversions of exsisting designs...After 205, many ships were built from new designs using even more advanced technology. These were known as "Second Generation" designs..."

Anything produced during the First generation period MUST be a conversion of a prior, already existing, ship. What I am suggesting is an X-ship conversion to a new type that is unique to the X-ship period. Since the major conflict during this period is the Andromedan War this speculative new type should be something that fights very well against the Andros. (X-ships were also present during the tail-end of the General War and during the ISC Pacification but the total number of X-ships present during these conflicts was relatively low.) I think that PF tender conversions of heavy cruiser based X-ships used as RTN hunters would would fill the role nicely. Another possibility is for a Heavy Weapon Assault X-cruiser to fill up Andro PA panels. Something similar, I suppose, to an X conersion of the Sparrowhawk-J.

This is getting a little far afield from the topic, however. I'll post these suggestions as new subjects in the X-Ship Section tomorrow.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 01:09 am: Edit

Douglas, I think that the changes you suggest, particularly increasing batteries, runs the risk of making the ships no challenge to fly and therefore not fun. With enough batteries, flying the ship pretty much becomes like FC where all power is reserve power (in effect).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 01:10 am: Edit

Well, I do remember reading that X2 is in fact what you are describing; not refits of older ships, but brand new hulls built to take advantage of the new technologies from the ground up.

X1 technology compared to non-x GW stuff, is imo perhaps something like the existing national guard ships compared to the late y-era ships.
An X2 ship would be like the Fed CA style compared to nat'l guard ships or Y-ships.

It's not entirely analogous, but the closest thing I can think of. One difference is that I do expect X2 ships to be more than just new hulls using X1 technology. How much more is not known at this time, but if X2 is to succeed, it would be imo be helpful if they weren't so powerful that late GW ships and X1 ships could not possibly fight them and win. That was a problem with the old X2 product way back when, the ships in that product were completely too strong for older ships to deal with.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 04:48 am: Edit

In conditions that suit their abilities X1 is already sufficiently powerful that non-X can't fight them. The worst historical case is X Fed vs non-X Rom - the combination of Range 40 Photons with X ship power supply is hard to beat on a floating map. I once beat twice my force value without taking a scratch to demonstrate to an uber-ship afficionado that this sort of matchup was _not fun_ for the other guy.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 06:25 am: Edit

The key problem is 'in conditions that suit their abilities'.

That's not x-tech doing it, that's direct fire vs plasma on a floating map doing it.

Try taking on twice your x-ship's bpv on a fixed map and see how it goes.

I generally don't recommend playing SFB on a floating map for this reason.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 04:17 am: Edit

With non-X vs non-X the plasma race can afford to chase and phaser at speed 31, preventing repeated long range shots because it takes time and space for the DF race to turn around each time. These fights are winnable for plasma given a modest BPV edge (enough to balance-against-the-field, not balance-against-Fed-CA). That doesn't work against X-ships because they can afford phasers and reinforcement. The extra ten hexes of photon range (something no other DF weapon gets) doesn't hurt the Feds either.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 07:17 am: Edit

I wrote a story EXACTLY about the "floating map" deal.

It's around the archives somewhere...

ISC Captain Q'lever and his Echelon vs Klingon captain Kidiot & his force of D5 CWs...

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 11:12 am: Edit

Actually, DISRs do get extra range in X-tech. 22s go to 30, 30s go to 40.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 02:22 pm: Edit

This is the unproofed list of proposed ships that did not make it into X1R.

The lower the priority, the higher the urgency. For example a DNX might get a (low) priority of 9. A Kzinti DB X-Ship might get a (high) priority of 1. Inexplicably TGX tended to get a 1 while BCHX tended to get an 8, but I readily admit these rankings are arbitrary and controversial.

Race	Ship	Priority	YIS	Module	Notes
Fed	ACSX	3			Carrier; RTN Hunter
Fed	BCHX	8			Some want BCH SSDs; most don't.
Fed	CLX	5		CL36	Old CL; players like the nostalgia. Possibly configured HDW style.
Fed	CVHX	3	NEW	K2	Assault Scout Carrier: 6xF-111 or 6xA-20F
Fed	CVX	3	NEW		CVS with 12xF-14 or more likely 12xF-15
Fed	DDLX	3			2xPL-L; 2xPhot; 2xDrone DDX
Fed	DEX	4			Lollipop or DDX Carrier Escort
Fed	DNX	9
Fed	DVHX	4	NEW		FB-111 carrier based off the DDX
Fed	DX	4			Lollipop DD
Fed	DXD	3			DB Scout based on DDX
Fed	FFSX	3			Scout
Fed	GVAX	1	182	CL26	A-20F Scout Carrier; with the warp to rearm
Fed	HWX	1			Can't be named XHW as that denotes X2
Fed	NCLX	2			200BPV. Fills the gap between DDX and CX
Fed	Tug-X	1			Tug
General	Aux-CVAX	8			Fast Aux or X-Aux
General	Aux-CVLX	8			Fast Aux or X-Aux
General	Aux-PFTX	8			Fast Aux or X-Aux
General	Aux-SCSX	8			Fast Aux or X-Aux
General	F-NQX	8			Q-ship
General	F-NX	1			X-Freighter; OpU
General	FRDX	1			FRD; is there really any change to the SSD?
General	L-QX	8			Q-ship
General	MonX	5			Monitor
General	S-QX	8			Q-ship
Gorn	BCHX	8			Some want BCH SSDs; most don't.
Gorn	BDCX	7			Carronade Battle Destroyer
Gorn	BDPX	2		K2	PFT
Gorn	CMPX	2	196	K2	Strike PFT RTN Hunter
Gorn	COMFX	4			Commando Carronade Cruiser; 4xPL-L
Gorn	DDX	2			Fills gap
Gorn	DNX	9
Gorn	Tug-X	1			Tug
Hydran	AHX	5			Escort
Hydran	BCHX	8			Some want BCH SSDs; most don't.
Hydran	CRUX	4			Unique armament
Hydran	DAX	3			Escort
Hydran	DCS	5			Carrier; RTN Hunter
Hydran	DNX	9
Hydran	FCX	4			FCR for St-X
Hydran	HNX	4			Hunter-X
Hydran	LEX	3			Scout Carrier; Needs St-TX heavy fighter.
Hydran	MTGX	1			Tug
Hydran	Pegasus	5			Pick a variant
Hydran	St-HX	2			St-H with X refit. Single space.
Hydran	St-TX	2			St-TX Heavy Fighter.
ISC	BCHX	8			Some want BCH SSDs; most don't.
ISC	CAPX	3			No PPD; 3xPL-M
ISC	DNX	9
ISC	LTX	2			LTT
ISC	NCSX	3			Pocket XCC Oddball
ISC	SRX	4			Survey Cruiser
ISC	Tug-X	1			Tug
Jindarian		4			As needed. I don't know enough to comment.
Klingon	C7X	8			Some want BCH SSDs; most don't.
Klingon	D5XDA	5	187		Stasis D5XD
Klingon	D6X	4			HDW style modular design
Klingon	DNX	9
Klingon	DWUX	3	196	K2	DCS RTN Hunter
Klingon	E3X	2		SFT33	Historical
Klingon	FXD	2	186		DB Scout
Klingon	FXJ	2	186		Unique penal ship seems to make sense even if its just some special rules and no SSD.
Klingon	T7X	1			Tug
Kzinti	BCHX	8			Some want BCH SSDs; most don't.
Kzinti	CDX	1		CL26	DB Scout; CMX hull
Kzinti	CLX	3			Converts a useless hull into a useful hull
Kzinti	DDX	4			Fills Gap; rare old design might have trouble with class history
Kzinti	DNX	9
Kzinti	NCAX	2			Medium Cruiser; lightly upgunned
Kzinti	NDCX	3	196	K2	DCS RTN Hunter
Kzinti	Tug-X	1			Tug
LDR	CWSX	1	192		Scout
LDR	CWX	1	191		Mirror Lyran
LDR	MPSX	1	190		Fills gap
LDR	MPVX	2	191		The LDR do odd things
LDR	PFWX	7	193
Lyran	BCHX	8			Some want BCH SSDs; most don't.
Lyran	DNX	9
Lyran	FFX	2			Cheap new construction when you can't afford a DWX
Lyran	PFTX	2		K2	DW Based PFT; 3 Sensors
Lyran	SRX	1	188		Survey Tug; RTN Hunter; OpU
Lyran	Tug-X	1	186		Tug
Neo-Tholian	COMX	2			See Tholian NCX. BPV seems too low. Need deployment rules?
Neo-Tholian	NDX	8			Could the Tholians ever build a NDD-RH?
Neo-Tholian	NFX	8			Could the Tholians ever build a NFF-RH?
Neo-Tholian	Rear Hull	7			Not really worth an SSD; but…
Orion	DBRX	3			Fills gap
Rom	BCHX	8			Some want BCH SSDs; most don't.
Rom	BHXP	2	184		Engines from a WE; not X-tech (SVC didn't think XP SSDs belonged in X1R)
Rom	DNX	9
Rom	FHPX	6			Low build rate hull may self limit mauler abuses.
Rom	HFAX	4			King Falcon with X. See SFT#34 on ADB board.
Rom	SNXP	2	185		Engines from a BH; not X-tech (SVC didn't think XP SSDs belonged in X1R)
Rom	SPFX	6	186		Slippery slope mauler
Rom	SPHX	1			LTT
Rom	SUPX	1			Assault Carrier
Rom	THX	3	196	K2	Strike DCS RTN Hunter
Rom	WEXP	3	183		Engines from a KE; not X-tech (SVC didn't think XP SSDs belonged in X1R)
Selt	BCHX	8			Some want BCH SSDs; most don't.
Selt	CLX	3			CAM (CAM is G2 Warship Status speak for Campaign Conjectural)
Selt	DNX	9			CAM
Selt	FFX	3			CAM (CAM is G2 Warship Status speak for Campaign Conjectural)
Selt	SCX	3			DD Based; CAM
Tholian	BCHX	8			Some want BCH SSDs; most don't.
Tholian	CANX	3			Pocket BC
Tholian	CAPX	2			Web Caster as optional refit; not standard (standard web casters cause S8 problems)
Tholian	CPFTX	3		K2	PFT Based on CCX
Tholian	CSCX	7			CCX based Scout
Tholian	CWSX	4			Scout
Tholian	DNX	9
Tholian	DPWX	4			Yes its SC2; but its got sizzle and Tholians didn't get a DLX
Tholian	DWX	3	NEW		Something larger than a DDX. Possibly with casual fighters.
Tholian	PFTX	2		K2	PFT; PCX based
Vudar		5			As needed or from CL. I don't know enough about Vudar to comment.
WYN	DSX	1			Scout
WYN	LDX	9			Conjectural DWX for the WYN instead of the PBB

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Seltorian, Vudar, LDR, Jindarian HDWXs, so that they can use that hull for their variants instead of having to give them advanced escorts, carriers, PFTs, scouts, etc. Also more economical for them as they don't have the money for many hulls.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Tugs: Needed to support OpU. Need rules to prevent them from becoming uber-powerful warships.

Assault Carriers: Drone fighters ruled the general war because the power starved carriers could easily field them in large numbers. Then drone based carrier groups became unplayable due to too many drones. X-Assault Carriers allow the player to explore carrier duels without drone overload while soaking up all the extra power.

Heavy Carriers: Heavy fighters need some love too.

PFT: Obvious solution to hunt the RTN, but do they belong in their own K2 or Andro War module?

BCH: To avoid violating the existing history, these will probably need to stay conjectural, but there are enough power gamers out there who won't be satisfied without them.

General: Some fast tugs to support OpU are important. Time to reprint and revise the OpU scenario?

Survey Cruisers: If a tug is a good idea, can a survey cruiser be far behind?

The rest of the list contains various racial oddities and gap fillers. More than enough to fill a module.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Let SVC decide the priorities, lol.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 04:00 pm: Edit

You missed the Seltorian DNLX, Lyran CLX, JGPX and possibly others which should be on the list, especially the ones from Captain's Log. Check my post from earlier in this thread and make one that's consolidated.

As I actually went and looked through old issues of Captain's Log, I suggest you at least include the stuff I found, and perhaps other units I listed, which generally were from comments on this list?

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Did anybody think the X-upgrade of FFTs/DWTs as viable?

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Are X-tugs in fact needed to support Operation Unity? IIRC the original OpU scenario background stated that X-ships were not part of the expeditionary fleets for logistical reasons, and that very fast freighters were used for moving supplies (and possibly mobile base sections). There was that very fast cargo ship published recently in Captain's Log which could fill the gap. Unfortunately I can't remember the name or issue.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 05:21 pm: Edit

There is a mostly non-X OpU that's published. Ideally I would like to see an alternate version published with a mostly X-ship OOB.

Richard, that's the list from two years ago of the rejected ships from X1R. No attempt was made to consolidate it with the suggestions from this topic.

Priority was intended to weigh how the players in that ancient topic viewed inclusion of any particular ship. The Steve's made the decision, but they had a tight schedule to get the counters printed and the priority list helped them quickly separate the wheat from the chaff. In the end most of the priority 1, 2 & 3 made it into X1R, but the Steve's did surprise me by picking a few dark horses too.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Tos,

With all due respect, you need to proof your "unproofed list of proposed ships that did not make it into X1R". Several of the ships on that list either did make it into X1R or were replaced by something sufficiently similar that it obviates the need for your suggested ship.

Also, in your 2:42 PM post you list "Heavy Carriers: Heavy fighters need some love too." This is kind of mixing apples and oranges. A "Heavy Carrier" is (usually) a dreadnought-based carrier carrying 2 squadrons of single-space fighters. The second part of the quoted passage, however, suggests what you are really looking for is a carrier that carries heavy fighters, rather than a "Heavy Carrier". But most of the empires already received those in X1R as well, usually based on their CWX hulls.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 05:38 pm: Edit

The fast cargo ship for Operation Unity is the Fast Naval Transport (FNT), and was published in Module R12.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Thanks ADM, I knew I'd seen it somewhere. I'm pretty sure that when Petrick updated the OpU campaign for Cap Log, there was an alternate OOB including many more X-ships for the Galactics.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, November 10, 2011 - 12:23 am: Edit

If there is going to be an X1B the module needs more than the X-ships missed in X1R. I think a new menace right about the time the Andros are defeated in the Alpha quadrant would be interesting. Something else that drives the need for X-ships.

Parasites always seem to show up right after an exhausting conflict. Perhaps the Souldra from The Omega side.

Pr-general war CAs were used for patrol. You wouldn't use a CCX for patrol as these lead squadrons. A CAX class would perform this mission and could be introduced as art of the third X-ship epoch.

Another class I would like to see would be a CX based ship that has the attrition units of the BCS in the rear hull but not the extra weapons and power. The DDX and FFX classes without modifications would serve as escorts.

Finally X-freighters and X-operational bases would be interesting.