Is there a contradiction between "attrition unit" and "long life"? I don't think the service life of a fighter or PF has been defined anywhere. With regular maintenance and refurbishment I don't see any reason that a fighter could not serve for decades. Modern fighters do.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Sunday, November 13, 2011 - 08:28 pm: Edit

Oh, I am sure they last a long time while they are not being shot at. But the very definition of 'attrition' points towards their combat lifespan.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, November 13, 2011 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Terry,

Perhaps I'm looking at it wrong.

Attrition units are expendable. its handled as part of the supply system (such as replacements, fuel and ammunition).

PFs and smaller attrition units might survive a battle, but often one or more such units are lost in combat.

By "Long Life" i'm drawing a comparison between starships that might serve up to 30 years or more and have participated in numerous battles, and fighters that often don't survive their first battle. And note the attrition of PFs in SFH and fiction.

The point I attempted to convey to Mike was that by definition, attrition units (again, PFs, interceptors, heavy fighters, fighters etc) do not have a long life expectancy.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 03:38 am: Edit

What I was trying to say is that they would be built more like a skiff than a PF/ Interceptor.

So they (absent combat) would last a long time.

During the GW (the attrition unit heyday) they were considered expendable. Not least because of the tech changes..

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 03:44 am: Edit

Sure, they don't last more than one battle, often enough, but just by being there they tend to intimidate raiders and pirates from attacking in the first place. And they really only need to last long enough for help to arrive anyway. Most national guard units in the GW never saw combat, and the rest only saw combat on one or two occasions.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 06:22 am: Edit

@Michael: That's kinda what I was proposing a page earlier.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 08:59 am: Edit

Ravenhull.

Exactly. I am thinking you have a neat idea.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 10:02 am: Edit

Sorry to be a wet blanket here, but it seems what you are proposing is a modern version of the Skiffs. (with X tech?)

How are you going to convince SPP that they will not be operated in squadrons of 6, and restart the whole "every race will want them" can of worms?

More importantly, how will these X-Skiffs be any different from the work boats that existed after the General War?

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 10:17 am: Edit

I was thinking that every race would build these. Yes, I am proposing X-skiffs. That said, Skiffs do not operate as flotilas like PFs, and Skiffs are not frontline warships. Also, like skiffs, they cannot be put on mech links, and as such are tied to a fixed location.

Now, I am not talking about something built during the war. I am talking about something happening after Operation Unity as X-tech slowly becomes standard. In some ways, these ships will be the heralds of the X2 ships as the local defense forces find themselves getting what is by that point leftover tech.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 10:49 am: Edit

I can see advanced technology used for many things... after X2 starts. Before that, it's not for new constructionof ships, it is for refits of existing designs.

In my opinion, once the X2 period starts, advanced technology would spread to things like freighters, skiffs, etc... eventually. It has been stated in X1 that historically first generation technology was only used to refit ships, not to build entirely new designs (the Fed DDX being based on an unbuilt non-x design).

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 11:19 am: Edit

Actually, most X-ships were built from the keel up as X-ships, though based on designs modified from existing hulls. The refits were in addition to the new construction.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Excuse me, I meant not for new construction of new ship designs.

That doesn't address skiffs, but I still think that non warships did not get xtech during the 1st generation period. They would be much lower in priority. Once advanced technology became the new standard, this would change. To the best of my knowledge, this occurred during the 2x period.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 01:17 pm: Edit

To my mind the colony defense force would like a cheaper PF, maybe with a longer non-combat life-cycle, rather than a hypothetical X-skiff.

Where does the money go in a PF squadron?

Typical economic costs:
4 standard PFs (100 PV + refits and drone speed)
1 leader PF (40 PV + refits and drone speed)
1 Scout PF (100 PV + refits and drone speed)

Notice that the leader and scout cost noticably more than the rest of the flotilla combined.

The leader has higher cost because they've somehow managed to cram in a transporter, tractor, and shuttle into what was already a nearly maxed out hull without taking anything out. If you removed three other boxes (weapons) when you added these systems then the result will be closer to the cost of a standard PF (maybe cheaper).

Similarly replace the scout with a less capable EW unit (maybe something using the same sorts of systems as an EW interceptor, which is to say something that functions more like fighter EW pods than special sensors; alternately maybe there's only a single special sensor and it's limited to loaning 3 EW) and you can maybe get the cost of that unit down to only 20-30 or so PV.

A downgrade to the regular PFs probably isn't worth it, so you leave them (2/3rds of the units) as is.

So the flotilla goes from costing 240+ to costing 150+ or so, at the cost of being about 75% as capable. That's not a bad trade-off, and it produces a usable "peacetime" PF based garrison that's much cheaper to build and somewhat cheaper to opperate than the conventional squadron and quite capable of discouraging pirate raids on small colonies.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 02:02 pm: Edit

As an aside, you have to be very careful with terms.

Even a Battleship might not survive the first battle it was ever in, while a gunboat or fighter might survival several.

"Attrition unit" does not mean that the unit is expected to be destroyed.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 02:20 pm: Edit

I guess it would be more accurate to say 'attrition units' are units that would not be as economically damaging to lose as capital assets. As such, the expense of X-tech would make it less 'attritionish'.

Basically, a fleet would rather lose 200 combat BPV of fighters and PFs and fighter than lose a 200 BPV starship because the former would only cost abotu 100 BPV to build.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Going back to Josph Carlsons idea about a "New Menace" to use as a common tie for the ships in X1B module, he did indicate that in the era were discussing (post andromedan war) the zones between the empires are wider... partly because of the ISC and Andromedan attacks (and patrols...) as the empires contracted thier territory.

Just thinking about it, that means thousands of star systems, planets and "other useful places" would not have adequate protection (atleast not on the same scale as existed prior to the General War)

So maybe there is a need for a local defense thingy (different from fighters, bombers, interceptors and PFs) that is based on X technology.

Does that mean we just go back and give an XP refit to the various skiffs, security skiffs, modular couriers that already exist?

seems kind of boring... plus, even with X technology there is still the problem with crew habitability.

The range limits on skiffs interceptors and PFs isnt just the ion charges that build up in the engines (warp pods for those units that have them) its that the 30 or 40 beings cooped up in a small size class 5 hull stacked practicaly on top of one another creats a limit on how long they can remain combat effective.

I havent looked at the rules, but IIRC its something on the order of 48 to 96 hours... not the days or weeks months or even years that larger ships can.

Short of inventing a new type of star ship we're kind of limited to either a skiff like thing or a small star ship with X technology built in.

is it enough the handle the kind of colonial defense job needed in the year 202+ challenges?

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 05:26 pm: Edit

It sounds like you folks are pining more for something like x-monitors than anything else.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 06:55 pm: Edit

Kosta,

No, I don't think so.

Monitors are cruiser sized ships with the fire power of a dreadnought.

colony defenses need to be able to handle a small pirate raider or rogue merchant ships with a a shuttle or two (plus what ever skids and ducktails may be on the hull...)

The problems multiply when the enemy has acess to X technology and ships.

But a monitor is more than is needed IMO.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 08:12 pm: Edit

Ballast-mode armed freighters can be pretty scrappy units with their reduced move cost. Many of the large ones will have access to 9-box engines by that point, and applying some basic XP refits to the phaser battery makes it a match for many small raiders.

(I'm not sure if the question regarding ballast-mode freighters and skids has been answered yet, but the firepower improvement is significant. Perhaps there could be an XP-upgraded defense skid stored at planets, which would be far cheaper than trying to upgrade every freighter in the province.)

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 11:59 pm: Edit

Partial X-Refits(XR0.4)states "XP-refits cannot be applied to X-ships, PFs, fighters,, drogues, defense satellites, or mines. The smallest X-ships are the APX, FTX and FXX in X1. These are size class (SC) 4 units. Skiffs and cutters are SC-5 units. I don't see an SC-5 X-unit being viable.

You then have various auxiliary cruisers and carriers to protect some planets. These combined with various ground bases (which can be X-bases) and attrition units such as fighters, bombers, and PFs would seem to be cost and combat effective for most needs.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 12:33 am: Edit

What will the revised ground bases look like? If enough of the weapon bases have access to batteries, there may not be a need for undersized mobile combat units.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 02:48 am: Edit

I was NOT proposing an Xskiff.

The X EPs are too scarce.

What I was proposing is something like a Heavy Bomber crossed with a Skiff/ PF.

Cheap components and assembled at the base location. Maybe no warp packs? NEVER able to operate from mech links.

Instead of having a leader version there is a modernish skiff equivalent with guns replaced with transporter, tractor, 2 BPs, an admin, tow bar etc.

No scout version.

So the standard version might be:

Basic PF with shield refit
Delete the WBP
Add a 4 box APR
No mech link capability

And then design a utility version (basically a work boat) with a transporter, tow bar, admin, 2 or so BPs, a couple extra hull...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 02:51 am: Edit

Well that would be an entirely new design, which is something that didn't (currently) appear during the 1x period. X2 perhaps?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 09:07 am: Edit

There is at least one first generation X-ship that was not based on any standard tech ship, at least not one that was actually built. That is the Tholian HDWX. In the recent module (I can't recall the R-number off the top of my head) the Tholians got a conjectural standard tech HDW. But due to the small size of the Tholian DD, they were apparently unable to actually build an HDW until after X-tech became available.

By Daniel K. Thompson (Dkt0404) on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 01:10 pm: Edit

As Tos's list mentioned, a Tholian DNLX would be nice. The obvious choice is the screwball (admit it; it is a weird ship class) DPW hull.

The DH is a full on DN and there isn't a DNL Neo ship.

It rather limited the options.

In a lot of ways the DPW is a light DN. Or a extra heavy battlecruiser depending on how you look at it.

Considering that there is apparently enough growth room left in the DPW design to come up with the DHW, it doesn't really sound like it should be to big a problem.