Archive through December 28, 2011
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development: Module Y4: Archive through December 28, 2011
By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, September 15, 2011 - 10:34 pm: Edit

Well, yeah, you'd basically just end up with the Eagle Series with max-4 ECM and other W-era ship limitations appearing when everyone else is having their W-era.

Their Y-era ships would be quite different, then, and by the GW-era, they'd be building ships that are direct lineage from their earlier designs rather than anything Klingon influenced.

I'd once knocked together something like that in partial homage to a FASA design in the Gallant Wing cruiser

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Friday, September 16, 2011 - 09:51 am: Edit

A question then, if Romulans developed their own designs, without the Klingons or crazy stupid Vulcans :) giving them the technology. What would they have done differently so that thier ships would be functionaly different than what we have now?
I mean if they end up with the same number of phasers/ plasma wepons, batteries, etc as the hawk ships just with a different outline, what's the point?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, September 16, 2011 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Jim,

Well, that's the $100,000 question, isn't it? :)

For my part, what I would like to see are the following:

For the Y-series, they would be visually similar to the Eagle series, but they would be scaled to match the size of the historical counterparts. This would not necessarily add weapons (though a few extra phasers would be good). However, it would beef up their systems to more expected levels.

For the Middle Years and later, I would hope to see ships built around the "big gun" instead of spread plasmas. So, in the Middle Years, all cruisers (including light cruisers and war cruisers) would be built around a Pl-R and all SC4 ships would be built around a Pl-G. (When I say "built around", I mean the armament is designed around that primary weapon. Not that the ship is literally "wrapped around" the weapon.) Police ships would use a primary Pl-F, and dreadnoughts would use two Pl-R. Then, refits would add auxiliary Pl-F (and maybe Pl-G) as necessary to fill out the armaments.

If you really want to have fun, do NOT allow the Romulans to use Pl-S. Instead of figuring out how to make a Pl-S work in the same space as an older Pl-G, the Romulans figure out how to fit a Pl-G into a smaller space. This means that their Pl-G are non-upgradable, but the get more of them. So, for example, destroyers might get two Pl-G and a Pl-F. Frigates probably live with Pl-G + Pl-F. It also means that heavy cruisers could end up with Pl-R + Pl-G + (one or two) Pl-F.

There are really lots of options that can end up with ships with very different play aspects. And that is the point of doing alternative designs: to change things up in a new, but still very similar, way.

EDIT: Oh, yeah. One thing the alternative design can NOT be is like anything we have seen before. No FASA, no TNG, no Enterprise, none of that.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Friday, September 16, 2011 - 02:34 pm: Edit

OK what about the mauler and cloak.... since the old models are built around the big gun, the mauler and Plasma R. Would they continue with this plan and not use plasma G's, or F's on the ships... maybe adapt the LSM concept with their early sublight fighters and have them develop, unmoving captor mine platforms with either a phaser or plasma F that can be deployed to create terrain.
These device are carried and deployed as mines or shuttles? SO the ships still have 1 big gun, plus a few fire support platforms.

By Troy Latta (Saaur) on Friday, September 16, 2011 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Ooh, I like that! Deploy a large captor mine in place of the NSM. Different, but totally keeping with the flavor.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, September 16, 2011 - 04:38 pm: Edit

The alternate Romulan fleet also needs to adapt to the differences with the forces arrayed against them especially Klingons with drones and the high speed high annoyance Tholians. Since most of these warp Romulan proposals give the Romulans warp prior to the first cloak precursor, the alternate Romulans need different defenses.

No Maulers: most of the mauler benefits are rather limited in comparison to ships with phasers, plasma bolts and warp. No seeking plasma when the Mauler was developed. The Mauler ability to fire every turn is handled by phasers and the plasma bolt covers the close range lots of damage role.

No cloak: At least until much later. The cloak is overwhelming when used against EY ships by warp capable opponents. Mask and veil I thought were restricted from use on warp ships so the Romulans might have some on bases and sublight defensive ships but otherwise it is a dead technology. An alternate cloak equivalent with different abilities might be fun but that could take years of real world time to balance.

The various Romulan Houses could have differing proposed designs which could simplify matters if more than one proposed alternate Romulan concept proves interesting. Publish them all.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 12:46 am: Edit

Actually, if the Roms get tacwarp and plasma-R's, they don't need cloak.....

Also, you can simply say Mask/Veil is 'EY Cloak' and let tacwarp ships use it....the restriction was mainly so that we didn't have to explain why the Orions didn't have Mask/Veil either....

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Regardless of the exact form, I think it is now obvious that very interesting things can be done that will result in ships with a very different flavor than either existing Romulan ships, or other plasma ships. (There is no particular reason to actually design such ships here, as I am sure that is something that Petrick would want to do, assuming this would ever be done.)

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Mike, in what way - afterall, the Romulans already have the R and G, should develop a phaser (could be only a 2) and the F and S (trade, steal, self) - (even SPP would like a hint as to where to go)...

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Although why all this is in the Module Y4 topic, I'm not sure. We should probably break the last few posts off into their own thread.

Still, we have the problem of explaining why we are doing this. A 'threat file' makes no sense, as the last time the Federation saw the Romulans (even in the SFU history) before they re-appeared post-Y-era (~Y154), they had very little like the new Romulan weapons and technology. Such a Star Fleet 'threat file' on them would know nothing about plasma torpedoes (the Federation had never encountered the weapon before...even First Contact with the Gorn hadn't happened, yet), nor anything about a cloaking device (even the 'mask' or 'veil' devices hadn't been deployed, yet).

On the other hand, a Gorn 'threat file' would look...well, pretty much exactly like what the Romulans actually were. The Gorn were in near constant conflict with them, and there wasn't really any long period of Romulan absence from Gorn interaction that would lead to the uncertainty a 'threat file' would have...

About the best bet would be another 'Stellar Shadows' project, but those...don't sell very well?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 11:15 pm: Edit

The reason this was in the Y4 topic is because someone (hint, hint) proposed putting conjectural Early Years Paravian ships into Y4. I countered by saying that if any conjectural ships are put in Y4, they should be early warp Romulan designs. We then debated various thoughts on early warp Romulan designs.

The whole "Romulan Threat File" was proposed by one person, but that doesn't affect the validity of the discussion. Reason being, that Y4 is as legitimate a spot for putting early warp Romulans as anywhere else.

(And, truth be told, there already *is* an existing discussion for early warp Romulans. It just hasn't been used in a long, long time.)

And, if talking about early warp Romulans isn't appropriate for Y4, then most certainly talking about conjectural early years Paravians isn't appropriate either. So, were does that leave us?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 11:20 pm: Edit

I'm not sure I even see a need for another Y-product at this time.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 11:23 pm: Edit

Quote:

And, if talking about early warp Romulans isn't appropriate for Y4, then most certainly talking about conjectural early years Paravians isn't appropriate either. So, were does that leave us?


...not talking about conjectural topics?

I may have accidentally started that with the discussion of the conditions we'd need to have for anything historical from the Peladine and Borak to have showed up? That went into 'conjectural' land pretty quickly, but my intent had really been just to look at what historical races could be included (by trying to evaluate who - that were not a major player by the GenWar period - would be players in this period)

In point of fact, there really is no need to discus 'conjectural Paravians' in Module Y4...the Paravians exist until Y94, and are even actively fighting with the Gorn until Y85. That's pretty well into the Y-era, already, so...

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 11:33 pm: Edit

@Richard - well, we need to get the Tellarites out, in any case. They are a pretty major race in the Federation, and we still have no idea what their standalone history was, or what their ships looked like.

And we have Y-era Cygnan ships published in a Captain's Log...that aren't thus 'fully official', yet, and still need formal publication.

So those are two definite things we are expecting and need to see at some point, which is where much of this conversation came from.

Also - Module Y1 also indicates that the Vudar fought with both the Hydrans and Klingons, implying some early warp Vudar (pre-Ion technology weapons) we haven't seen. And were a few other candidates (but most have been dismissed) for 'also ran' races that exist in this period.

Finally, we have some General War-era technology components that we really need to see Y-era versions for. DEFSATs, for one...even the simple Phaser-2 DEFSAT, while merely 'annoying' for a General War-era fleet, is overwhelming against Y-era ships (and gods help the W-technology units).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 12:21 am: Edit

Why do we need Y-era versions of Defsats? Can't some technologies be invented in the Middle Years?

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 01:06 am: Edit

Sure, but these make a poor candidate for that. The technology level for them is very basic, and as noted in the 'evolution of a colony' article, they have a LOT of functions that would be necessary in any period:

Quote:

They operate as communications relay, global positioning, weather, crop survey, and meteorite defense satellites to name just a few functions. A significant function of Defense Satellites is their Transporter Repeater function, enabling transporters at the main colony to transport survey teams virtually anywhere on the planet to select sites for colony expansion. These additional functions make Defense Satellites a good investment since they perform many important daily tasks for the young colony, especially given their relatively cheap replacement cost if destroyed.

One function of a Defense Satellite chain is early warning



The net-net being that the EY period almost certainly has something LIKE a DEFSAT...at least, something that can perform all of the above functions, even if it isn't a proper GW-era "DEFSAT". It must be there, as the role is certainly needed in this period as much as the GW-era. We just haven't seen what it looks like, yet. A safe bet is that it *doesn't* look like a GW-era DEFSAT, though, which outgun even some Y-era cruisers...

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 03:03 am: Edit

They certainly have satellites to perform at least some of those functions, but whether those satellites have weapons is another question. Satellites with sufficient firepower to threaten a ship may well be a later invention.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 04:29 am: Edit

Well, "meteorite defense" seems like it would take some form of weapons. And given there is a not-insignificant cost to these in putting the network up, some ability to defend against local piracy would probably also be a need.

I'm really not expecting much with these - given other GW -> EY trends, probably just cut each pair of weapons on the SSD into a single mount and give them 10 internals or so...done. Indeed, given that more limited role, I kinda have a hunch that the most popular EY DEFSAT would actually just have a pair of phaser-3s and a (YFD18.0) Atomic Missile rack on them. Or maybe just a pair of Atomic Missile racks. Nice vintage leftovers from the various empire's sublight wars and pre-FTL nuclear wars...and plenty capable, when put on an otherwise comm/relay satellite, of shooting down the occasional meteorite or annoying a small pirate or space monster.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 04:53 am: Edit

I really don't know how important meteor defense is. I mean, seriously, how often is a planet going to be threatened by a meteor big enough to be a problem?? Given the power of even low-quality sensors in the SFU (compared to the modern equivalents), it'll be possible to spot seriously threatening rocks from a bajillion miles away and summon help.

"My Gosh! A huge meteor will impact the planet if we don't do something!"
"How long do we have, Professor Farnsworth?"
"At the tremendous speed that it's moving, about six months."

I'd prefer to see no DefSats in the Early Years. I think something better might be a defense system that was adequate against W and Y era ships but made obsolete by DefSats, not just cut-down DefSats. Just for the sake of being different. Although I have no idea what form such a defense might take.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 09:31 am: Edit

Xander,

I mistyped earlier. I meant to say conjectural *Peladine*, not Paravians. My bad, and my point stands.

Richard,

Ignoring conjecturals, there are plenty of ships and units that can still be added to the Early Years. It would be easy enough to fill up a module the size of Y1. I don't think it would even be a problem to make something the size of Y2 or Y3. Content is not an issue.

Now, if you are saying that a Module Y4 should not be made so a "Module R13: Ships That Were Never Made, and This Time We Really Mean It" or "Module J3: More Game-Breaking Fighter Tricks" can be made instead, then that is pure subjective opinion and the Steves will figure out what will sell best.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 12:14 pm: Edit

Quote:

I'd prefer to see no DefSats in the Early Years. I think something better might be a defense system that was adequate against W and Y era ships but made obsolete by DefSats, not just cut-down DefSats. Just for the sake of being different. Although I have no idea what form such a defense might take.



That's actually my preference, too - but that was my point. There is SOMETHING that fits that role of a 'orbital colony defense system' and also platforms (maybe the same thing) that can perform the function comm relay, GPS network, weather satellites, etc. And, within the game, be the 'transporter relay' platform necessary to move colonists or troops around the planet. And we haven't seen it, yet, for the EY-era.

As we saw in the recent Battleforce article...the means by which the transporter relay on a colony works is a pretty important military objective if you want to try to get a foothold on the colony, so we need an SSD for it so we can destroy whatever it is!

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Mike West: Don't put words in my mouth. That was uncool to make me propose products with names like those.

While certainly it's possible to make Y4 with even more ships most people will never use and more races that just aren't that interesting, I really think we don't need that.

I personally would be more interested in an Omegan product with speed 31 units and X-ships, or for something (perhaps) with more middle years stuff, with a more complete list of Y-ships upgraded to middle years technology (perhaps).

But I digress. This is the Y4 topic. I suggest that you keep it to that, instead of suggesting that I'm proposing products that no one will want.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 02:07 pm: Edit

Richard,

Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you. I did not intend to suggest that those were products you wanted or even endorsed. You certainly did not propose them at all. (In fact, you proposed no other alternative products of any kind.)

Rather I (and no one else) made those 'product names' to make fun of the products themselves. Not you.

I apologize for being unclear.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Since the thread rambled for a bit, current state of discussion on Y4:

Tellarites. They are a pretty major race in the Federation, and we still have no idea what their standalone history was, or what their ships looked like. Given their location ('eastern' part of the Federation), I'm thinking a plasma-like weapon, but "GURPS: Federation" does say they get photon torpedoes in their W-era refits (they've been interstellar since Y5), so...maybe a mixed heavy armament? Something new/cool would be nice.

Cygnans. Captain's Log #24 gave us some Y-era Cygnan ships that aren't thus 'fully official', yet, and still need formal publication.

Borak. Now that E3 - Borak - is out in playtest with an 'official history', we know that the Borak had ships that 'actually existed' in the Early Years timeframe (they built and flew Y-era and W-era designs). Certainly, it's possible to just leave those in Module C..?6? (or whatever) that ends up featuring the Borak and Peladine. But with just Basic Set and Module C6, you wouldn't be able to play them, as they would be limited by 'Early Years' restrictions (acceleration limits, EW usage, etc) more appropriate to the Y-era. So I'd suggest pulling those ships from that hypothetical future module and putting them in Y4. Aside from the 'early megaphaser' (which is just a very powerful phaser with a mauler-like-arc), there are no special rules to them, so would be pretty trivial to add.

Mantorese. Another 'GURPS: Federation' race. Developed non-tactical warp drive 'at least two centuries before humans did', but due to cultural conditions didn't build much of an empire with it. Occupied by the Kzinti from Y136-Y140; did not reach Federation 'associate member' status until after the General War.

Fralli. 'GURPS: Federation' informs us the Fralli had primitive interstellar travel by Y50, and they were testing warp drive in Y102 when First Contact was made. They did not get accepted (marginally so) into the Federation as 'associate members' until 165, so...? Decent candidates.

Vudar. 'Module Y1' also indicates that the Vudar fought with both the Hydrans and Klingons, implying some early warp Vudar (pre-Ion technology weapons) we haven't seen.

There were a few other candidates (but most have been dismissed) for 'also ran' races that exist in this period, but the above set covers the ground for what are the most obvious choices from other parts of the SFU that ought to appear in the EY-era and haven't, yet. There are a few 'maybes' worth further discussion, too, of course:


Outside of those, it would still be nice to see some more ships for existing races...

General units. By and large, with Module Y3, we've got 90% of these covered. In fact, probably enough that we don't need to worry about more. But if there IS room, we have some candidates.

Specialized variants. In the regular races, there are a number of 'obvious variants' that do not exist:

Incomplete ship lists. We have, owing to the several Y-era products, a pretty good range of ship types out there. Given that range, some races or empires do seem to be missing a few...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 09:18 pm: Edit

I would also add the pre-Orion pirates of ISC space to that list; unlike in the rest of the Alpha Octant, the extended period of isolation of Concordium-explored space coupled with the late arrival of the first Orion Pirate ships leaves more room than most for new designs to be added. It is noted that there were a few dedicated pirate hulls, on top of the civilian units "re-purposed" for said vocation.

(A couple of years back, I had hoped a couple of Iron Crown minis could have been appropriated for this role, to echo how the five planetary fleets had been beforehand; if that option is still available, well and good, but I suppose something new could be cooked up if required should they not be.)

Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only
Administer Page | Delete Conversation | Close Conversation | Move Conversation