I think I'd mentioned elsewhere in the thread that it wouldn't be an awful idea to pair some of these designs to the Mongoose 'Call to Arms' miniatures. For obvious reasons - any business directed their way helps them stick around longer to build us more awesome 2500 minis.

The Tellarites, in particular, would be useful to mold in the shape of one of the Mongoose Noble Armada fleets.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 10:08 pm: Edit

If the ACtA:NA minis were to be on the table for use in the SFU, I would sooner hope they could be used to help flesh out some of the "new" empires in settings like Omega, the LMC or M33; where they can have the chance to represent more modern ships, too.

(Empires like the Chomak Community or the Echarri Dynasty have roles to play in their respective settings, but have no published SSD layouts to draw from as of yet.)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Well, let's hit a few issues:

- Non-photon EY weapons for the Federation: SVC has pretty much definitively stated that "warp weapon" for the Federation is the photon. Any differing weapons would have all been "sublight", not "warp". That means any theoretical Tellarite ships would be photon armed.

- Tellarites: Ignoring the prior point, good luck on convincing SPP that a Federation national fleet should have some kind of photon/plasma combination. Heck, good luck on convincing him about plasma-anything for the Federation prior to Gorn Pl-F torpedoes.

- Cygnans: Please understand I, more than anyone else involved in the game, would like to see the Cygnan ships included in a Y-module. I just don't see it happening as they are not, technically, Y-era ships.

- Borak: Based on the experience of dealing with the Vudar, the Borak are totally unavailable for a Y-module until after their C-module is published. They wouldn't include the Vudar in Y2 because F2 wasn't published. I would be amazed if they decided to include the Borak in a Y-module until after they are formally published in a non-playtest module.

- Mantorese; Fralli: Your note pretty much explains right there why they don't need any ships in a Y-modules: They simply didn't have any that would fit.

- Vudar: I have been advocating for some W-era designs since Y2. I don't see us being any closer now that I was then.

- Defsats; Monitors: I was going to make a different comment, but considering the YIS dates for both units, earlier versions could work. Go for it; maybe SPP will be convinced.

- Sublight freighters: This would be cool. It might never get used, but it wouldn't hurt.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 01:49 am: Edit

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Quote:

SVC has pretty much definitively stated that "warp weapon" for the Federation is the photon. Any differing weapons would have all been "sublight", not "warp". That means any theoretical Tellarite ships would be photon armed.

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Quote:

They wouldn't include the Vudar in Y2 because F2 wasn't published. I would be amazed if they decided to include the Borak in a Y-module until after they are formally published in a non-playtest module.

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By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 04:31 pm: Edit

It had been noted up-thread, by the way, that there aren't any dates specifically mentioned for when the Vudar developed tactical warp, so a suggestion had been made (not by me) that maybe they never did. That the territory they had carved out for themselves, which ended up with them fighting both the Hydrans and Klingons (according to Y1) was done via sublight ships entirely, a la the early Romulans and Paravians.

Given that they fought battles with the Hydrans (and were not, apparently, just steamrolled by them), and even the Klingons took 'a few years' to conquer them, this would seem to indicate their ships were at least able to give some trouble to warp-equipped ships.

So...my personal preference is for them to have proper W-type warships fighting for their survival (and losing - again, I think this would be an interesting mini-campaign for Module Y4 to feature), but I could see an argument for something like the 'sublight' (but capable of fighting warp ships) Paravians/Romulans. I (of all people) thing that is unnecessary, and W-era designs would be the best bet, but...I can see that argument.

(The general point being that, according to established history, both the Hydrans and Klingons definitely DID have warp-refitted warships for decades before the Vudar encountered them. Indeed, the Klingon D4 was entering service roughly concurrent with the Vudar conquest. Primitive lasers and rockets aren't doing to slow down a D3 or D4. So, this campaign isn't really a good "Module Q" candidate, as we *know* that the Vudar opponents all had tactical warp, even if it isn't clear if the Vudar, themselves, did.)

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Xander: Prime Directive has the Vudar achieving TL9 which gives them NTW in Y25, and TL10 & TW in Y70;

And then TL11 & EY ships in Y76, TL12 & Ph-1's in Y177.

And while I've got the book open to that page:

The Paravians achieved TL9&NTW in Y20, TL10&TW in Y68, TL11&EY in Y85. Nothing after that because they went extinct in the Alpha Sector.

And FYI, I also have a Racial History & Timeline for the Paravians, which I wrote to MPBeta and has never been printed.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 05:52 pm: Edit

@Gary - what page is that information on? I dug through GPD and GPD:K, and couldn't find any information so detailed on them?

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 06:01 pm: Edit

GPD 4th Edition page 134.

GPD3e pg 110.

Look at the table giving GPD RACIAL TECHNOLOGY LEVELS.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Well, I'll be danged. So the Vudar not only definitely had W-type ships at the time of their contact with the Klingons, their first Y-type ships would be rolling off the production lines.

So, based on that, we have a timeline (for the Vudar) of:

Y20 - 'Sublight'/NTW ships (GPD, pg 134)
Y68 - Tactical Warp/W-type ships (GPD, pg 134)
Y76 - Purpose-built Tactical Warp/Y-type ships (GPD, pg 134)
Y76 - First contact between Klingon and Vudar ships (Module Y1, pg 7)
?<Y77 - 'Clashes' between Vudar and Klingons and Vudar and Hydrans (Module Y1, pg 47)
Y77 - Klingons find location of Vudar homeworld and occupy it (GPD:Klingons, pg 60)

I can't find any dates for Vudar contact with the Hydrans, but given the map of the galaxy in Module Y1 on page 6 shows Klingon space completely surrounding the Vudar sector by Y75, I'd have to assume that it would be before then.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 12:22 am: Edit

I should note that the TL data in Prime Directive has not always been rigidly adhered to; in the case of the pre-Y160 ISC, the history as laid out in Module Y2 is at variance from the TL dates published for them in GPD4e.

(According to GPD4e, the early ISC reached TL9 in Y25, TL10 in Y60, TL11 in Y120 and TL12 in Y168; whereas Y2 places TL9 at approximately -Y175, TL10 at Y10, TL11 at Y81 and TL12 in Y160.)

If the five pre-ISC planets needed more room to develop beyond what PD provisionally laid out for them, other corners of the Alpha Octant might (or might not) do with the same.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 12:33 am: Edit

Perhaps. But the ISC history has gone through a couple pretty major revisions - not least of which 'the development of warp drive bringing peace to the ISC member species' being pretty significantly revised to be more advanced warp, only.

The Vudar have pretty much all along been consistent in 'fought the Klingons and Hydrans a bit, were conquered pretty quickly'. That the TL dates match so very closely with the timeline as we'd already expect to happen based on the information we have from other (multiple) source...it makes a very compelling argument.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 12:32 am: Edit

Xander,

I do not have module E3 and so did not realize that Jeremy already included W- and Y-era ships for the Borak. In that case, I have to say they are all completely off-limits, as they would be introduced with the formal publication of the Borak, not in a Y module. No point in doing them, as they already exist and already have a viable avenue for publication outside the Y modules.

For the Vudar, the reason to include them is because they do not exist. Since they don't exist, this provides a forum for their presentation. I wanted them in Y2 because I felt they would be a cool addition and because there was no other vehicle for those ships. Their non-existence is what made them candidates. (And they still actually make sense for Y4, assuming the history works out.) Had the designs already been created, then they would make no sense for a Y module, as they would then have been included in their formal publication.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 01:39 am: Edit

Mike, just for your reference, as I have recently posted elsewhere on this BBS:

The Vudar achieved NTW ship tech in Y25,
Tac Warp in Y70,
and EY ships in Y76.
"S" "W" And "Y" class ships respectively.

This is on Page 110 of GPD4 and has been in print since 2005, so it is probably as official as it gets around here.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 02:21 pm: Edit

@Mike - the thing is, though, that E3 is just a playtest pack. Roughly the same 'canon' as the Captain's Logs...probably less so, actually...so this is not the final 'published, it's done' version of these.

The ships in Module E3 and E4 will...most likely (taking a wild guess at this)...end up together in something like a Module C6 "Western Simulator Empires" or something like that when they are formally published. So what I was suggesting is that, since they are already in playtest and given no unusual/new technology for their EY ships (the overriding ruleset providing the most of their characteristics would be the 'Early Years'...which rules obviously aren't duplicated in E3), that maybe the right module to put THOSE designs in would not be C6 (or F3, or whatever), but Y4.

The argument being that what 'makes a Borak ship unique/interesting' (turrets, phaser cannons, H-K/suicide fighters, etc) are things that don't exist on their EY ships. Rather, their EY ships are just using bog-standard Early Years tech/sensors/engines/etc (with an EY version of the Megaphaser, but no special rules around that...it's just a powerful phaser with a small arc). So why not include their EY ships alongside all the other EY ships in a Y-module? Rather than the alternative of putting them alongside so many other ships that they don't use the same rules as, have very little in common with technologically, and nothing in common with 'in reality' (the Borak, after all, actually built and used all their W-type and Y-type designs...whereas everything else in Module E3 for them is 'conjectural/simulator').

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 02:26 pm: Edit

What that would allow us to do is make a somewhat more generic 'conquest of a minor empire' campaign for Module Y4 (perhaps as the showcase of the module), WHICH I'D LOVE TO DEATH!

In this period, after all, we have the invasion, conquest, and occupation of two 'second-gen tactical-warp-fielding empires'...both the Vudar, and the Borak. And, heck, for that matter - we know roughly the same thing happened to the Paravians, too...although, presumably, their logistics structure was wildly different. Still, the Gorn did to them what the Klingons did to the Vudar and Hydrans to the Borak. Invaded their space, destroyed colonies and fought battles, pushed their defensive lines back to their homeworlds and ultimately conquered them (in the case of the Gorn, just destroying all the orbital facilities, and not actually landing troops - no idea on the other two).

It's an interesting part of the SFU, and something we haven't really seen a set of campaign rules for (or more detailed history of).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Borak Y-type designs do use turrets.

Phaser Cannon and suicide fighters however never actually existed.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 02:35 pm: Edit

FWIW, the Borak timeline (at a high level) relative to this period:

? - First warp flight
Y63 - Tactical-warp-refits of sublight ships (W-type) entering service
Y70 - first contact with Hydrans
Y79 - Second-gen TacWarp designs (Y-type) entering service
Y87 - Hydrans decide to attack the Borak to prevent them from allying with the Lyrans and Klingons during the invasion
Y87-Y89 - Hydran campaign to destroy Borak star fleet (E3 notes that it took 'less than 2 years' to accomplish this)

(Noting that none of the 'simulator' technological advances providing unique Borak weaponry actually occurred historically - this is really what makes me the most interested in putting these Borak in this module. With their W-type and Y-type ships in Module Y4, then Module C6...or wherever they are formerly published, possibly with the Peladine...becomes a pure 'simulator' module. Without pulling the Borak W-type and Y-type ships in Y4, then C6...or whatever...is 'mostly simulator, except for some ships that were real but used new and different technology'.)

EDIT: And I didn't catch that two of the Y-type ships did use turrets, my bad. Most didn't, but...fair point, that.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 04:54 pm: Edit

I don't think there is any other instance were a a given module had official ships for an empire still in playtest.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 05:08 pm: Edit

But, again, the Borak empire-specific technology that is in playtest (phaser cannons, H-K/suicide fighters) would not be included, here.

The only things that WOULD be included given their technology of this era would be 'turrets' (which we already have published as a result of the Qaris in Module C4) and 'megaphasers' (which have been in widespread playtest since at least Module P6 that I'm aware of...way back in 1995). If there were balance problems with those two items, I think we'd have found them by now.

So that just leaves the particular combination of the systems on the SSD that needs to be tested as 'unique', and, well, that would be true of all ships in the product, anyway, so...I don't see an issue, there.

(And, honestly, the reason I'm pushing for this as hard as I am, is that I really think it would make a great parallel to the Vudar conquest. An article or two, or better a campaign, that helps show the difference in how the Klingons conquered the Vudar, Hydrans conquered the Borak, and Gorn conquered the Paravians...given roughly equal technology in each case...would be very interesting to see! And the big point is that, realistically, I just don't think there is enough material in the SFU to justify a Module Y5 ever existing, so if we don't cover it in Y4...it won't get covered. I could be wrong on that, but...I doubt it.)

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 08:05 pm: Edit

While unlikely I would like to see this module have the sublight rules and SSDs to complete the "early" picture, since Module Q isn't likely to happen. I realize this would take ALOT of SSDs.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Sublight stuff is rather too big a scale for this. That's almost as much time as the entire EY period, again. And I really think between the Tellarites, Vudar, and early Borak; 'missing' ships (some Rigellians, Vulcans, some other races getting warp-refit battleships); possible new variant so that everyone gets something (phaser boats a possibility?); and a campaign...that fills up Y4 pretty well as it is.

(And in any case, I'd just as soon we end up with a different set of rules for the 'sublight era'. Vector movement and all. The potential conflicts from that time are far more limited, owing to pretty limited number of empires that have made contact with each other - which makes the scope of that era very different from the EY period.

A personal dream of mine would be ADB and Ad Astra games working together to make the 'Attack Vector: Tactical' rules cover that period. Several modules could come of that - Fed vs Romulan, Klingons vs Kzinti, Lyran vs Hydran, etc. Probably won't happen, but a guy can dream, right?)

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Late post on the debate between putting Borak in a simulator module only or adding it into Y-module... Early years fans want the Borak early years material in an early years module so that they aren't spending extra $ on simulator stuff that isn't early years. Simulator fans want simulator stuff and don't want to spend extra $ on early years stuff just to have a complete set of (for example) Borak material. There is early years material available for several simulator empires, so I suppose you could create an "early simulations" product. I think that such a product would be so darn specialised that it would sell worse than either other option. Ultimately, the decision about where it goes will be the answer to the question, "What's going to sell the best? What's going to please the largest number of paying customers?"

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 01:56 pm: Edit

I think from a pure marketing perspective, getting the Borak in an as many different modules as possible is the best bet. Putting everything Borak in F3/C6/whatever is a surefire way to get people who are uninterested in 'simulator' material to never see them at all. By having their 'real' ships published in an EY module, it gets exposure to the Borak out to a larger group, and maybe triggers a reaction of 'hmmm...this race seems interesting, maybe I'll pick up that F3/C6/whatever after all, even though it IS simulator-only'.

In contrast, I don't think you will convince someone to buy into the Early Years period, who has resisted it throughout the three existing modules, by the inclusion of 7 EY ships in the ultimate Borak 'retail release' product.

(Which is, I think, another way of looking at the same concept you just discussed, Terry. FWIW, I don't believe there are any Borak 'early simulator' ships, so that's not specifically relevant to this discussion, though - all 'early' Borak ships were 'real', only the GW and X-era stuff is simulator. As to the other simulator empires in the 'early' period...I dunno, I think the Captain's Logs are probably a fine place for those.)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 02:18 pm: Edit

I like the idea of a vector-based game for the Q-era; indeed, given the scale in which the short-ranged non-tactical warp engines of the five pre-ISC powers had, I could imagine a zoomed-in campaign map for them to work almost akin to the Inner Sphere maps in a certain other wargaming franchise.

As regards splitting historical and conjectural ships, the Paravians do that already. The Early Years Alpha, Stellar Shadows Main Era Alpha, and Omega Paravians all have (or are at least allocated to) separate types of modules; if at some future point we get a look at the Paravian Jihad, it presumably would be fairly self-contained in whatever future Omega module might end up carrying them, and not require access to the other material to be viable in-game (and vice-versa; you wouldn't need that module to enjoy the other two in-game incarnations of the Paravians).

So, if the E3 ships are given a similar split, there is an existing template for them to follow.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Gary, well said.