Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board

Archive through January 04, 2012

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development: Module Y4: Archive through January 04, 2012

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 05:17 pm: Edit

The difference with the Paravians, of course, is that they were published as they were created. So, originally, there were no conjectural Paravians. There were only "real" EY Paravians, so they were published in Y1. The conjectural Paravians were only created much, much later.

With the Borak, that isn't the case. The first Borak were actually the conjectural ones. The EY Borak were actually a late addition. As such, they are the "add-on", not the primary subject. As such, I don't know if they will want to publish the "side-job" EY stuff ("real" or not) prior to publishing the primary focus of the Borak, which is the General War era conjectural fleet. Especially since anything you do with the EY ships can really limit options with the General War era fleet if playtest later finds something.

It just seems a bit premature to force the Borak into a module when they have only really just been released into playtest.

I would definitely like to see the Vudar included, if at all possible. Regardless of what GPD says, any Y-era ships are going to be either conjectural or unique. (There just isn't enough time.) But, they do have room for a reasonable W-era fleet that can then be conquered and destroyed by the Klingons. Which would be pretty cool.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 06:07 pm: Edit

The Paravians first appeared in CL12, which was not published until after PD1 went dormant ...

As a result, the Paravians are not mentioned in any version of PD until GPD3.

Their other early mentions & appearances include Y1 and the Starsnake Scenario (SM5).

By Sidney Garth Kanouse (K7lordkrivak) on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 07:31 pm: Edit

Y4, Why? IMHO the Alpha Octant is getting crowded and some modules are getting too cookie cutter. Forget about any middle years crap. We need X2 with the big bad Xorks, and go on to other systems, galaxies what have ya. The ideas bucket is empty. X2,X2!

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 08:18 pm: Edit

This thread is about Y4. I, personally, don't care about X2 and haven't bought any of the existing X modules after playing them at a friend's. Too boring, there is no challenge to those ships. In any case, there is material still needed to cover in the EY era, and if you do want to discuss the X2 timeframe...hey, there is another whole site section for that.

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Regardless of what GPD says, any Y-era ships are going to be either conjectural or unique. (There just isn't enough time.)

Well, I wouldn't say unique, but I agree - I don't expect a lot of them. How many cruisers, destroyers, and frigates could a, say, 2-4 F&E hex empire produce in the span of a year? Ballpark estimate, we have about 3 turns worth of production of Y-type technology ships before the homeworld is conquered based on the dates we know.

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Especially since anything you do with the EY ships can really limit options with the General War era fleet if playtest later finds something.

Again, I just don't see the issue, here, and it seems like a position stemming from some misinformation:

ALL ships in this module need to be playtested, anyway. There are *no* Tellarite ships published to date, at all, for example, anywhere. So in many ways, the Y-type and W-type Borak ships already have more than a year headstart on anything else that would potentially be included.
There aren't any systems that would have that interaction. H-K fighters? Not in the EY period. Suicide fighter rules? Not in the EY period. Phaser cannons? Not in the EY period. etc. The only thing we have technology-wise for these EY designs are turrets (which were officially published 16 years ago, as of Module C4) and megaphasers (which were also published 16 years ago, in Module P6). The overall *combination* of these things still needs to be tested, certainly, but...well, see point #1.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 08:40 pm: Edit

I just don't see a big need for Y4.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 09:20 pm: Edit

I think it would be nice for the handful of races that are left.

I would prefer others first, but will buy this.

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 01:48 pm: Edit

What still needs to be covered in the Y-era? You can only go so far until you hit Y120-Y130 or so and the Middle Years ships show up. I have Y1 and Y2 and they are both pretty cookie cutter. I was somewhat excited about Y1 at first, but after reading through it I was disappointed because all the ships were pretty much the same; same power, same phasers, mostly the same weapons because of no overloads or other special functions. I only bought Y2 because I wanted the added background on the ISC, and was actually a bit shocked that the Five Races had different weapons (and a couple of pretty good ones at that). I've played Y-era ships (Federation YCA vs. D4) one time and found it to be extremely boring. It's already been said that all new W and Y-era Federation ships, for example, will have photon torpedoes. Why? I'd rather see what the national races used BEFORE the photon torpedo. (In all fairness, I must state now that the photon torpedo happens to be my favorite weapon.) And even the older ships, like the W-era Gorn and sublight Romulans use lasers and atomic missiles. The rules have stated that both Federation and Romulan ships during the First Romulan War all used lasers and atomic missiles. IMO, that's cookie cutter and boring. It's basically almost like flying the same ships no matter what the race. At least the Middle Years ships had some differences about them. After the General War the ships became slightly more cookie cutter again, but still had differences, i.e., the Federation NCL having more ph-1s than the D5, the Lyran CW only having having 3 disruptors, the Hydrans having different heavy weapon suites, etc. You have none of those differences in the Y-era.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Nobody is talking about pushing the years forward, any - just races that have ships in the EY period that haven't been published yet.

To whit:

The Tellarites. Major Federation race, we have seen none of their W-type ships (although 'GURPS: Federation' plainly says they have them)
Vudar. Started production deployment of Y-type ships about a year before the Klingon invasion and conquest, had W-type ships for something more than a decade before that.
Borak. Started production of Y-type ships nearly a decade before Hydrans conquered them, and had W-type ships more than a decade before that.
Some races are still missing ships, outright. The Rigellians don't have a 'destroyer' or specific 'heavy cruiser'; the Vulcans don't have a 'destroyer'-sized warships or a 'frigate' or 'light cruiser'-sized scout. Some of the more militant races (Andorians or Romulans) would also probably have built 'sublight battleships' like the Gorn WBB, and we don't have the W-type version of those. etc
It would be nice to see some more variants. An Andorian missile cruiser, some 'all phaser' cruisers for various races, etc.
There are various 'general' units still missing. DEFSATS are too powerful for the EY era, but we need something for transporter relay/weather satellite/meteorite defense work. No Y-monitors exist, yet. We know sublight freighters exist in this period. etc.

etc - there are plenty of other minor races that may have had ships (Fralli, Mantorese, Cygnans) that need published, too.

IE - LOTS of material still left open as gaps in this period.

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I've played Y-era ships (Federation YCA vs. D4) one time and found it to be extremely boring.

If that's the only Y-era battle you've fought, I can see why you'd be less than impressed. Granted, I find even that one at least as interesting as the General War-era duels, but even so...

Try Gorn warp-refitted ships vs Romulans...the whole 'warp speed ships with sublight weapons vs sublight ships with warp speed weapons' is a massively bizarre and interesting balance. It's important in this period to remember that many of the empires had no contact with each other, so...

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The rules have stated that both Federation and Romulan ships during the First Romulan War all used lasers and atomic missiles.

That's not a Y-module, that's a Q-module. I would presume, if putting that era into its own module, we'd see it expanded so that the 'lasers' have as much variation as 'phasers' do today...or 'atomic missiles' as much variation as drones, etc.

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 02:28 pm: Edit

And what would be the point to publishing W-era ships for the Federation races? How would a Tellarite W-ship be any different from a Terran W-ship be any different from an Alpha-Centauran W-ship? Same power, same weapons, different SSD outline. No thanks. The only real differences in those ships are the Vulcan special sensors and Ph-1s and the Rigellian cargo boxes instead of armor. And even in Y2, the Vulcans lost that difference on their light cruiser and frigate.

I've done warp vs. sublight before. Romulan WB vs. Federation CA. No real point to it as the Romulan has almost no chance. The warp powered ship just circles around the sublight ship with almost impunity because the sublight ship can't move until impulse 32. And the "sublight ship with warp speed weapons" really isn't interesting because in my experience plasma torpedoes are fairly easy to dodge. (My normal opponent loves Romulans, I love Federation. Ask him how often he gets massive game ending plasma strikes on me as opposed to how often I get massive photon torpedo strikes on him.)

"That's not a Y-module, that's a Q-module. I would presume, if putting that era into its own module, we'd see it expanded so that the 'lasers' have as much variation as 'phasers' do today...or 'atomic missiles' as much variation as drones, etc."

I see your point on that one. You're probably right as far as that goes. But my point is that right now, if I wanted to do a battle from the First Romulan War, I'd have to make the Federation W-ship sublight by taking away the warp boxes and the only thing I could arm them with would be lasers and atomic missiles. Same with the Romulans. I end up with the exact same ships, just with a different SSD outline.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 02:45 pm: Edit

If you don't want Module Y4, that's cool. However, instead of crapping in the Y4 topic explaining how terrible of an idea it is, how about going to the section for the Modules you *do* want to see and talk about that instead?

Like Xander, I have no interest in X2. In fact, I generally ignore all things X (except PFs), with very rare exceptions. However, I have not (and I doubt Xander has, either) gone over to the various X forums and talked about how pointless or crappy they are. Please return that consideration.

On the subject of Y4, even if we completely ignore the Tellarites, Borak, Vudar, and anything else completely *new*, there are still enough ships and ideas to fill Y4. The point of the *new* stuff is to make it more interesting, not to create filler. This does not entail redefining the EY period (which, I might point out, no one has ever even tried to do), nor does it redefine anything. It is just filling out the ships of the period.

And, again as Xander points out, the sublight stuff is all for a hypothetical Module Q, not a Y module. Presumably, weapons and systems will be diversified in such a setting so that "lasers and atomic missles" are not the only things and are more than just "lasers and atomic missles". But, that is a conversation for a different topic; not this one.

Likewise, the idea of whether a "Middle Years" module is worthwhile or interesting is, while a valid discussion, not germane to this topic and should be discussed in its own topic elsewhere. Same with any thoughts, views, concerns, or opinions of X2, really.

Thank you all in advance.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 02:51 pm: Edit

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Romulan WB vs. Federation CA. No real point to it as the Romulan has almost no chance. The warp powered ship just circles around the sublight ship with almost impunity because the sublight ship can't move until impulse 32. And the "sublight ship with warp speed weapons" really isn't interesting because in my experience plasma torpedoes are fairly easy to dodge.

Not really the same thing at all. A Federation CA is a General War-era design. The earlier (more interesting) Gorn vs Romulan Wars feature ships with considerably different attack profiles.

The Gorn WCA, after all, has a *max speed* of 16 (well, 17 with impulse), not 30/31. It has no overloads. The 'heavy weapons' it uses are slow-warp atomic missiles that can only move twice a turn, and have a max range of 6 hexes. You have to get in CLOSE to attack a Romulan ship with that, so the fact that the Romulan is sublight is massively mitigated (assuming you are okay waiting three turns for the weapon to hit, you 'only' have to close to range 6...if you want it to hit sooner, though...)

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 03:00 pm: Edit

As the Gorn, even only going 16-17, or even 12, or 10, I can still control the range and get to 6 hexes. And since the Romulan only moves once per turn, I can approach him outside or his plasma arc and hit him with impunity. Although a good Romulan player can mitigate that somewhat.

"On the subject of Y4, even if we completely ignore the Tellarites, Borak, Vudar, and anything else completely *new*, there are still enough ships and ideas to fill Y4. The point of the *new* stuff is to make it more interesting, not to create filler. This does not entail redefining the EY period (which, I might point out, no one has ever even tried to do), nor does it redefine anything. It is just filling out the ships of the period. "

That's my point, after Y1, everything I've seen from Early Years has been filler. And IMO Y1 itself was too cookie cutter to begin with. What kinds of "new" stuff can be put into Y4? What "new" stuff went into Y3? W-era CCs for the Federation? Conjectural YBBs for races besides the Klingons? WDNs for the ISC? That's not really "new." That's just filling in gaps. I just don't see how anything "new" can be thought up with it's already restricted to having the same weapons, such as the Fed member races being restricted to photon torpedoes. You mentioned the EY Vudar. What will they have for weapons? Something new? Or just a neutered version of the Ion Cannon? The Borak are interesting. I liked them when I first encountered them online a few years ago. I might be interested in using them in an EY setting but only because they are different from everything else in EY.

My point about Middle Years is that MY has already been set. There is only so much that can be done in EY until you hit Y120 and run into the MY designs. That puts a cap on how much can be done and how much time, universe-wise, you have to do anything.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 03:12 pm: Edit

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And what would be the point to publishing W-era ships for the Federation races? How would a Tellarite W-ship be any different from a Terran W-ship be any different from an Alpha-Centauran W-ship? Same power, same weapons, different SSD outline.

I dunno. Some people still want to see them? The Tellarites, unlike the Rigellians and some others, were actually shown in the TV show and they deserve at least *some* love?

As for different weapons, we have *tried*. It just doesn't work because the photon is the "Fed warp weapon". However, it doesn't have to be the same boxes in a new outline. It could have a different phaser arrangement or a different photon arrangement. Perhaps it has an E turn mode and has three photons for 360 coverage? Perhaps it is Ph-3 heavy, instead of using Ph-2s. I dunno. It can still use photons and phasers and be *different*.

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... if I wanted to do a battle from the First Romulan War ...

If you wanted to do a battle from the First Romulan War, you have left the reservation and are not playing an EY scenario. Complaining that material from Y modules does not allow you to fight an non-EY battle/war is not really a fair criticism.

I am sure there is a "Module Q" topic somewhere. Go post there and see if you can get some interest generated.

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 03:19 pm: Edit

"If you wanted to do a battle from the First Romulan War, you have left the reservation and are not playing an EY scenario. Complaining that material from Y modules does not allow you to fight an non-EY battle/war is not really a fair criticism.
"

I know that is leaving the reservation, but the point I was making is that as the rules sit now, it is stated that sublight used only lasers and atomic missiles. That is plainly stated in Y1. That goes back to my point about it all being too cookie cutter and boring.

I'm not against publishing the Tellarites, or any other Federation member races, but my point is how do you make them "different?" How much "difference" is there in the currently published Fed races? Vulcans have ph-1 and scout sensors, until you get to the CL and FF. Rigellians have cargo instead of armor, but it serves the exact same purpose and is really just "fluff." The Andorians have drones, but how long did they keep them? As it sits now, the Andorians are the only Fed member race W-ship that has any real difference from the rest. As far the rules laid down, I don't really see it happening.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Sublight Romulans are cheap so there will be multiple sublight sublight vessels collectively covering all arcs with powerful weapons. It is easy to stay out of one Romulan's firing arc but impossible to avoid all of them. Fewer faster ships versus more slower ships might not be everyone's concept of fun; it can still be a balanced fight and sublight Romulans have much easier EA forms to work with.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Given the Tellarite homeworld being in the 'eastern' part of the Federation, I was thinking one way to make them somewhat different would be to give them a primitive plasma weapon alongside the photon. IE., mixed heavy armament. (After all, the Federation certainly adopted more advanced plasma weapons mixed with photons later in their history...having one of the member races with experience mixing plasma with photons gives that later development some back-story)

That would definitely make them feel quite a bit different from the other Federation races.

Not sure what ADB would ultimately do with them, but I do agree that something other than 'same systems, just re-arranged on the SSD' would be preferred.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Quote:
Again, I just don't see the issue, here, and it seems like a position stemming from some misinformation:
ALL ships in this module need to be playtested, anyway. There are *no* Tellarite ships published to date, at all, for example, anywhere. So in many ways, the Y-type and W-type Borak ships already have more than a year headstart on anything else that would potentially be included.
There aren't any systems that would have that interaction. H-K fighters? Not in the EY period. Suicide fighter rules? Not in the EY period. Phaser cannons? Not in the EY period. etc. The only thing we have technology-wise for these EY designs are turrets (which were officially published 16 years ago, as of Module C4) and megaphasers (which were also published 16 years ago, in Module P6). The overall *combination* of these things still needs to be tested, certainly, but...well, see point #1.

Comparing Tellarite ships to Borak ships is like comparing oranges to steel ball bearings. There are so many parameters around what a Tellarite ship can look like that anything that comes out is going to work. It won't need exhaustive play testing. Borak ships are completely new and using items (which may have been around for a while) in totally new ways. They may have actual systemic issues that have to be properly evaluated and play tested.

You mention that that Borak EY ships use turrets and megaphasers, both of which have been around for 16 years. OK. But remember that the megaphasers have never been truly playtested or revised in any of those 16 years. (Though, depending on the base turret rules, those have.) There could still be systemic issues with that system given that it hasn't been touched or used in all of that time.

The other issue is that these systems must be "back-dated". Turrets and megaphasers cannot be used on EY ships as-is. They have to have their capability reduced to some degree to show technological progress over the decades from Y60 to Y160. I haven't see E3, so I can't comment on how it was done there. Regardless, it has to be done with two considerations in mind: 1) The early version must provided balanced combat in the EY period and 2) The progression must work. It is that second point that is brutal. (And I am making the huge assumption that the early versions of the turret and megaphaser were actually back-dated to make them fit EY. If they were not, then that would be a serious problem. I have to assume they were reduced somehow.)

In any other system that has been "back dated", the base "GW-era" version of the weapon was already set in stone. It was not going to change. It was what it was. In the case of the Borak, the "GW-era" version of the megaphaser is NOT necessarily set in stone. Someone can still figure out the "loophole" that makes them unkillable (or unwinable). Perhaps it needs some kind of tweak to make things more balanced. The point is that, with the GW-era Borak, we just don't know, as nothing is yet set in stone.

If you go and publish the EY designs before the GW-era versions of the Borak are defined and set in stone, then you risk making a mistake and permanently creating a disconnect between the EY designs and the GW designs. The only way to ensure that won't happen is to wait for the GW designs to shake out.

The other thing to consider is that, from everything I can gather about the Borak creator, EY is just not his thing. As such, it is possible (if not probable) that the EY designs should be separately evaluated regardless. You say they only use some kind of megaphaser and don't use any of their other gadgets. Why not? Perhaps their current EY ships are just "not enough" and do need some kind of enhancement to make them more interesting. Maybe there should be some kind of early "phaser canon" or "enhanced suicide shuttle". We don't know, and that is the kind of thing that needs to be play tested.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Quote:
In the case of the Borak, the "GW-era" version of the megaphaser is NOT necessarily set in stone. Someone can still figure out the "loophole" that makes them unkillable (or unwinable). Perhaps it needs some kind of tweak to make things more balanced.
...
If you go and publish the EY designs before the GW-era versions of the Borak are defined and set in stone, then you risk making a mistake and permanently creating a disconnect between the EY designs and the GW designs.

I guess I don't see the connection between those two points. The EY Borak use Y-megaphasers, so if adjustment needs to be made to tho damage table on these...it won't effect the GW-era-megaphasers. And vice versa.

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As such, it is possible (if not probable) that the EY designs should be separately evaluated regardless.

If that's the case, though (that the Borak EY designs need to be evaluated distinct from the rest of the Borak), surely the right place to do that is in Y4, no?

After all, it's EY Hydrans that these ships will be fighting, so...shouldn't the EY Borak be included in (and evaluated within) a Y-Module?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Quote:
I guess I don't see the connection between those two points.

Well, it is there. I have seen it when working on the EY Simulator project. You can see it in the limits SPP had to work within when doing the GW-era Paravians.

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shouldn't the EY Borak be included in (and evaluated within) a Y-Module?

My point is that evaluating the EY Borak prior to the GW Borak being settled doesn't provide anything. The GW Borak have to be settled and done first. Then the EY Borak can be handled.

And it all depends on how the Borak are intended to be published. If they are going to be an F-module, then the EY ships can just as easily go in the F-module as a Y-module. If they are going into some C-module, then it becomes a more open question.

But all of that is secondary to getting the GW Borak settled. All things flow from that.

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Xander,

Having the Tellarites use a plasma-type weapon isn't too bad an idea. Kind of a "lost tech" sort of thing. Much like the Androian drones. I could get behind that.

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 06:32 pm: Edit

Some ideas for early years empires:

1. Mixed phaser-1 and phaser-2 armed ships. Basically these would mount phaser-1s in place of any heavy weapons.

2. Armored Cruisers. Most sub-light ships use armour. Perhaps it was decided to continue the concept into the early years for some reason or another. Armour is heavy, however, so these ships would be slow and rather unmaneuverable.

3. Rear firing heavy weapons. I've always been intrigued by this idea, although it is fairly rare in the SFU. Perhaps this could be combined with #2 above to make up for the lack of maneuverability. (This combination reminds me of the Jindarians,though.)

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Dizon,

1. the Vulcan armament through Y1 at least was all P1s and sensor channels. In later modules they seemed to seemed to split between sensor channels and Photons ... which was never my favorite. I thought it interesting to have them with P1s as their heavy weapon. The Borak also have a Phaser-only heavy weapon in the early years period.

2. Most W-class ships still have armor left on them.

3. If you're looking some rear-firing heavy weapons, the YBBs have some (as per std. for the class). If you're talking about ONLY RA heavy weapons, you just fly any old ship backwards.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 07:12 pm: Edit

@Dixon - I find your ideas intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Particularly #1. I had proposed the idea, for Y4 to have 'at least one ship for every empire', of having "phaser boats" (kind of like a predecessor to 'fast cruisers'...not fancy new engines, but at least more efficient weapons). I had been THINKING of just using Ph-2 in place of the heavy weapons, but...Ph-1 is...intriguing.

#2 may be interesting, too. It does tend to be true that ships in the SFU tend to be a little too 'perfect'...the various empires seeming to get the idea and design right, the first time, every time. The only real exception to that I can think of is the Fed 'lollipop' destroyer...too many heavy weapons for its power curve. It would be interested to see some more 'mistakes' in the EY period. IE., an assumption that armor will still be important, and an empire developing armored Y-type hulls (as noted, the W-type hulls almost all have armor, already). Maybe even W-type hulls that are extra-heavy armor with less warp (twice as much armor, half as much warp). IE., designs that are kind of 'mistakes'...or, at least, workable if less than ideal/perfect.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Mike West, please don't tell people which forums they can and cannot post in. You are not the moderator. You yourself then go and talk about your opinion about X-ships. That's rather hypocritical.

I still think based on what I've read here that there isn't much need for a module Y4. Perhaps someone will come up with something really compelling to change my mind, but until then that's my input here.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 07:46 pm: Edit

Richard; If I may post an observation. Having been on the boards for most of their existence, Buzz on the boards appears to have some influence on what gets published. If you want something else published it would probably be more effective to place posts in areas that you prefer.

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