Xander,

"...It would be (interesting) to see some more 'mistakes' in the EY period. IE., an assumption that armor will still be important, and an empire developing armored Y-type hulls..."

This is exactly what I was thinking!

Although, the idea that an empire had technical difficulty developing force-field shields could be plausible as well. This particular idea is similar to the way Romulans had difficulty developing tactical warp drive.

It should be pointed out that the armored W-type ships are refits of older sub-light ships and not new builds in the EY era. (Hence, the 'Warp Refitted' in the SSD title block.) They have armour because they predate the introduction of shields, not because of a persistent belief that armour is a good idea.

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 10:50 pm: Edit

An all phaser-armed ship as a sort of "early fast cruiser" is actually not too bad an idea. That might make for some interesting diversion in the Y-era.

As for the Federation DD being a mistake, the YDD probably fits into that category, but the actual final DD, especially after the + refit, is most defenately not in that category, in my experience. (And no, I'm not counting that two torpedo DDM abomination.) But that is for another thread.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 12:28 am: Edit

Richard,

It was not an order; it was a request. I am indeed not a moderator on this board, so it could not, as you point out, have been an order. I never really said anything else.

I would point out that my comment on X-ships was illustrative to get my point across, but I imagine that point would be totally lost on you.

You have made your point. Twice. Please go ...

No, wait. I have a better idea. Why don't you just go ahead and continuously post how Y4 is a bad idea. Please do it at least twice a day. Yeah. I think that will help get your point across, because I am not sure if anyone else is quite picking up on it yet.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 12:45 am: Edit

Dixon,

For #1, you have to be careful, as Ph-1s need to be rare and special in EY. Giving them out too freely will eliminate that "special"-ness. Not saying don't do it, just do it extremely rarely. Any "generic" phaser-boats would likely need to be focused on Ph-2s, not Ph-1s.

For #2, there are actually multiple ways to use the armor differently. One (which has had ships suggested around the idea) is to have some W-era ships upgraded a second time to Y-tech. That would give a Y-era ship with armor, and that would be a bit different. Another would be to highlight armor as mentioned by others. Unfortunately, that approach has some hurdles that have to be overcome first.

The first hurdle is that once shields are figured out, the cat is pretty much out of the bag. So, for example, since the Federation as a whole has shields, it would be very bizarre for, say, the Tellarites to not use them. It could work for someone like the Borak or Vudar, though.

The second hurdle is that apparently discovering warp opens up several technologies all at once, and it would require some delicate story-telling to explain why "shields" (which sometimes pre-dated warp) would be late in being developed for that empire. Not insurmountable, but something that has to be included with the submission.

The third hurdle is transporters. If an empire is to use armor instead of shields, for whatever reason, they become extremely vulnerable to transporter attacks. This has to be taken into account in some manner.

So, again, #2 is quite doable, but needs to have more "surround" than might be expected.

I would definitely like to see #3. When playing with a submission for the Tellarites (which I assume would go no where; it was just for fun), I played with the idea of giving an E turn mode and photons pointing LF+L, RF+R, and RA.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 12:50 am: Edit

---

Quote:

One (which has had ships suggested around the idea) is to have some W-era ships upgraded a second time to Y-tech. That would give a Y-era ship with armor, and that would be a bit different.

---

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 01:04 am: Edit

Mr. Bonauito.

Behold.

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/12031/22490.html?1280946452

Yeah, the Tellarite's have been discussed for Y4. Yeah, everybody wants them to have a NON-photon heavy weapon. I even have a bizarre idea that they improved their armor as opposed to shields.

In fact, during the EY playtest, everybody wanted the Fed national fleets to have different heavy weapons, ala as what eventually happened to the pre-ISC guys.

SVC said no. Oh, and Andorian drones suck. They pretty much ARE phaser boats. Fly them sometime and see for yourself.

I would love to see the Tellarites use the Y2 Plasma Cannon, instead of photons. Hell, I would love to see them use Giant BBQ Sandwich Launchers instead of photons.

SVC says no.

So take it up with him.

Eitzen?

Go look up the definition of 'threadcrapping'.

Now stop doing it.

I don't know, or care, what your problem is with West. Bonauito was threadcrapping. West called him on it. Your comment was flamebait at best; personally, I just think you were trolling.

And your little rant? Go look in a mirror. Pot. Kettle. Black. You have a problem with what West posted? Report it to Sexton. It's her job.

Me....I'm too lazy to report you to Sexton.

Yet, anyway.

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 02:00 am: Edit

"In point of fact, we actually have at least one example already 'in universe' of a 'sublight' ship that got updated to W-tech, then all the way to General War-level tech, in the Federation Old CL.

The old 'Eagle'-series Romulan ships also appeared as sublight designs, although pretty much jumped all the way to General War-levels of tech in one step (there weren't really W-type or Y-type technology levels for the Romulan ships)."

Don't forget that the Warbird was also the basis for the KEX and Hawk eventually became the BHX. And the WCL eventually became the basis for a lot of variants used by the FRA (including a mosterous beast of a DN). So there are a lot of example of older ships spawning new designs yet retaining the old-style armor systems. If some older ship used armor instead of shields, then some system similar to the Jindarian ATF would have to be created to block transporters. Is it just me, or do some of the old sublight designs seem to be extremely versatile and well-built?


Mr. Strain

Your sarcasm is noted. So now if someone disagrees with the prevalent opinion in a topic they are "threadcrapping." And apparently having the opinion that Early Years is too cookie cutter is "threadcrapping." Noted for future reference. I'll only post in a topic when I am in total agreement with the majority opinion.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 02:12 am: Edit

I don't think anyone would call for no participation. And I didn't specifically comment, myself, on your complaint that the EY period has been a bit "cookie cutter". In places, after all, it HAS been. Some of the ship descriptions in (IIRC) Y3 REALLY rubbed me the wrong way, in that entire paragraphs seemed to be copied from ship to ship to ship.

So - yes, I get that complaint, and I even agree with it. I don't think that's "threadcrapping" to point that out as long as it's part of a conversation on how to fix it.

I think Mike's complaint was more the vibe we got from your first posts, that seemed to imply you had no interest in having a conversation around that. You thought the EY-era was too cookie-cutter, wouldn't buy another Y-module, why don't we shut this thread down and talk about the X-era instead (which is how your post read). THAT is 'threadcrapping'.

I don't speak for ADB, but...disagreement is fine. Suggesting changes or new directions is fine. Arguing points - that's fine, too. Complaining about how an existing product did something, and how it could be done better...I, personally, WANT to see conversations like that happen.

But just be constructive about it. If you just want to rag on the time period and discuss how much better an X-era product would be...there are other threads specifically for those products, and such conversation would be much better suited, there.

If you want to talk about what could be done to make the EY era more interesting that could fit into Y4...hey, that's why we are all here! So PLEASE feel free to do so!

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 02:28 am: Edit

Wow, Bonaiuto.

Your lack of reading comprehension amazes even me.

I give you a link where EY Tellarites are discussed. Where it is proposed that they focus on armor instead of shields, have a non-photon heavy weapon, and are pretty non-cookie cutter (have significant manuevering limitations).

Apparently, instead of reading said topic, you just like to complain.

Thanks for proving my point, threadcrapper.

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 02:29 am: Edit

I never mentioned X-era. I never said I wouldn't buy another Y module. I also never mentioned shutting this thread down in favor of X2. I just asked what else can be done in Y4 because as it sits now, I don't see much of anything. I also pointed out that there is only so much that can be done because of the in-universe time frame, you only have until Y120 before MY ships start coming out and any EY ships left in service become dogmeat in a fight. But if you read my posts, you will notice that I've warmed to a couple of the ideas presented here. If something new and interesting could be put in Y4, I'd buy it. But if it's just a rehash of Y2 or Y3 I'll pass. To be honest, I like the idea I've seen floated before about conjectural tacwarp Romulans in EY and MY, that I might buy.

"I don't think anyone would call for no participation. And I didn't specifically comment, myself, on your complaint that the EY period has been a bit "cookie cutter". In places, after all, it HAS been. Some of the ship descriptions in (IIRC) Y3 REALLY rubbed me the wrong way, in that entire paragraphs seemed to be copied from ship to ship to ship."

Y2 had some of that also. But then Y2 also presented some original ideas, like the plasma drone. That one is interesting, but I've not yet used them. One of the direct fire plasma weapons caught my attention also, I can't remember which one it was right off hand. I'm not saying scrap Y4, but just don't post cookie cutter ships that amount to the same systems in a different SSD outline. THAT was my point about how to do Tellarite ships that aren't just Terran or Alpha-Centauran ships in a different shape or Rigellian ships without the cargo or Vulcan ships without the sensors or Andorian ships without the drones.

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 02:42 am: Edit

Wow, Strain.

If you'd read my post, you'd see I mentioned the armor and in fact AGREED with you about it and I also AGREE that there needs to be some new weapons instead of the same stuff over and over again. You apparently miss the point I made that since it has been said that the photon torpedo is the Federation's warp weapon then the Tellarites will have to be armed with it, thus producing a ship very similar to what has already been published. Even giving a photon torpedo facing every arc and a horrible turn mode won't really help as people will have the same complaints about it that they had about Jindarian asteroid ships. Big, slow, turns like a pig, but with a heavy weapon pointing out in all directions. That won't really solve anything. It would also bring up the argument about why the Federation didn't do the same thing on later ships that had horrid turn modes because some of them could use it, the original DN comes to mind.

Your condescending attitude amazes even me. You know what, you win. I'm ever so sorry I dared to have an opinion that differs from yours. There, you win an internet argument. You have bested me. I am stung. I shall now take 17 hours and reevaluate my life.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 02:49 am: Edit

The personal attacks stop right here, right now. I really do not want to read this wrangling.

Jean
WebMom

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 02:52 am: Edit

What if one of the as-yet-unpublished planetary fleets (Martian, Tellarite, etc) had a Paravian-esque dynamic, with shields but no armour?


Alternatively, there are different types of armour out in the broader SFU, depending on who is using them.

For example, on Trobrin ships, the armour boxes on the SSDs are separate belts (as opposed to the more "integrated" armour on Fed/FRA and Romulan ships); in fact, on extended missions, the silicon-based Trobrin can literally eat portions of the armour compound to sustain themselves. (There is a non-culinary aspect to this, too; when the Empire needed to convert their deep space dreadnought into a space control ship, they could simply pull off portions of the port and starboard armour belts in order to make room for the repair facilities needed to support their new gunboat flotillas.)

What if there was an empire (or planetary fleet) in Alpha which did something similar; ran discrete belts of armour on W- or Y-era ships, and pulled them off to replace them with something else later on once their shields improved?

Without the case of the silicate munchies, I guess...


You could even try something like the hemispheric banks of Neutronium armour in the Triangulum Galaxy; which act to protect only certain specific systems (but not necessarily the same ones as in M33). Not that it would have to be all that effective here, mind you; rather, if it were an option at all, better it be just crappy enough to show why the system was discarded in Alpha, compared to the more refined version which became so common out there.


In the case of aft-firing weapons, that might be something that would show up more prominently should such a unit be converted to Federation Commander; where you have to pay double to go in reverse.

(Unless you want to say that the "warp field anomalies" of the specific ships in question end up with the same 2:1 ratio in SFB...)

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 03:37 am: Edit

Problems with giving everybody a unique weapon include:
- inventing all those unique new weapons, playtesting, and balancing them, which would be a heck of a lot of work. Probably more than sales would justify, sadly.
- explain why those unique weapons were abandoned rather than continue in development. Part of the Y-history is to explain where the weapons you see in the GW and beyond came to be. Even the Kzintis stuck with their rubbish slow-speed drones long enough for drones to become a formidable weapon. Not to mention the completely rubbish Hydran early weapons, good grief. Yes, I know that history says Star Fleet standardised on the photon torpedo, but perhaps that was because of a lack of realistic other options.

Now, there might be room to convince SVC to allow fleets to have the different-sized photon torpedoes from P6. We know that Star Fleet standardised on the "medium" photon, but maybe national fleets experimented with different sizes prior to that.

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 04:03 am: Edit

I like the idea of crap weapons that were tried before the photon torpedo was selected. I mean, the Federation had to think of something else at first, right?

I also like the idea of replacing heavy weapons with phasers as a sort of but not early type of fast cruiser. Something that ended up being functionally similar to the later CFs but for different reasons. It could also work, in the case of the Kzinti and Federation, as a sort of testbed vehicle for the later use of ship-mounted ph-1s.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 05:18 am: Edit

Why the need for new "sub-standard" weapons, why not just say Tellarites had been operating light photon torps, same to hit ratio and ranges, but were only at half strength (1 point of power over two turns, doing 4 damage instead of 8, and no overloads) In Omega, the Federal Republic of Aurora had reinvented light torpedoes and developed heavy torpedoes in the early Y130s. Who's to say that it wasn't from Tellarite technology.

All other empires seemed to stay with their original technology and just improved it over time. I'm sure the GW Paravians (those in omega) and GW Carnivorns (any surviving ones that made it to Saragosso sector) will have new heavy weapons based on the current early years tech they are using.

Just because the other Federation species all have an aspect of Federation technology doesn't mean the Tellarites couldn't have gone the same route as one of the other species. Besides what's going to happen when you start bringing in other species like the Brecons or Deians or the Arcturans? I'm sure they had their own early year's fleets just like the Mantors, Cygnans and Fralli. Or are these going to be saved for modules Y5, Y6 and Y7? We can then add in all of the other subject races from the Klingon and Romulan empires to make up Y8, Y9 and Y10, giving them their own techs as well.

(deleted)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 11:07 am: Edit

Getting some interesting weapons do not necessarily require huge amounts of playtesting and other tedious mathematical work.

For example, one of the Fed nationals could just used a cleaned-up version of the proton torpedo from P6. (Think half-strength photon that fires every turn.) Even making a three-turn arming photon would work. (Big punch, three turn arming.)

Or, let others use the "range-5 only plasma bolt". Maybe even tweak it some so that it only works as a two-turn Pl-F fired from a Pl-G type mode. (That way it is a two-turn weapon, but is still fundamentally plasma.)

The point is that there are lots of weapons ideas laying around that are pretty easy to adapt without wandering into unknown territory. In published Y2, just look at the disruptor cannon and hellgun. They were created exactly this way. The biggest thing that has to be guarded against is accidentally developing something that *should* have been used later. As long as that is avoided, you can be good to go. (Let's go ahead and skip the obvious comments about the disruptor cannon, though. OK? That one has been beaten to death already.)

One note though: The light photon cannot be used at all. It violates that caveat I just mentioned. Had the Federation really developed light photons, they would have actually used them on their SC4 ships. That the Federation did NOT end up using light photons means that they never developed them. (SVC has been pretty clear on this point multiple times.)

By Chris Bonaiuto (Epyon) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 12:56 pm: Edit

The craptacular weapons wouldn't even require new SSDs. Just a couple three pages of rules with a note on how to replace the torpedoes with the Alpha-Centauran rapid fire pain cannon or the Tellarite plasma death gun or Terran ultra mega death blaster.

Maybe this could finally answer just which of the member races actually first developed and used the photon torpedo.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 01:30 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Or, let others use the "range-5 only plasma bolt". Maybe even tweak it some so that it only works as a two-turn Pl-F fired from a Pl-G type mode. (That way it is a two-turn weapon, but is still fundamentally plasma.)

---

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 02:37 pm: Edit

I still think you have no shot of giving the Fed early plasma. (Really, I think you have no shot of doing anything non-photon for the Feds at this point.) But, let's run with it anyway ...

The reason I suggested not using the vanilla 3-turn arming range-5 only bolt is because two empires already have that weapon. At some point it gets a bit repetitive. By changing things up, you do two potential things. First, you make it different, by at least a little. Second, you potentially introduce a development bottleneck that explains why that weapons technology path was discarded.

Plus, if you want to give them a three-turn arming weapon, just make a three-turn version of the photon. Does 50% more damage, but takes three turns of 2 points of energy instead of two.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Sorry. Missed this the first time.

---

Quote:

Just because the other Federation species all have an aspect of Federation technology doesn't mean the Tellarites couldn't have gone the same route as one of the other species. Besides what's going to happen when you start bringing in other species like the Brecons or Deians or the Arcturans? I'm sure they had their own early year's fleets just like the Mantors, Cygnans and Fralli.

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By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 04:17 pm: Edit

After re-reading GPD:Fed, the only two other races (aside from the obvious Tellarites that it said flat-out had 'sublight' ships refitted to tactical warp) that are marginal candidates are:

Mantorese. Developed non-tactical warp drive 'at least two centuries before humans did', but due to cultural conditions didn't build much of an empire with it. Occupied by the Kzinti from Y136-Y140 (after the EY period ended, obviously); did not reach Federation 'associate member' status until after the General War.

Fralli. 'GURPS: Federation' informs us the Fralli had primitive interstellar travel by Y50, and they were testing warp drive in Y102 when First Contact was made. They did not get accepted (marginally so) into the Federation as 'associate members' until 165, so...? Possible candidates. And good candidates to have a non-photon weapon, as they were not accepted into the Federation as 'members' until well after the Early Years period ended...so I doubt they'd be able to field photons, unless the Federation is in the habit of giving that technology out to any race that might eventually join.

...in both cases, obviously they'd never have a Y-type design of their own, and the number of W-type units would be very low, indeed. Perhaps nothing more than a destroyer or two...maybe something as big as a light cruiser as the 'flagship' of the resulting 'national guard' fleet that protected their space until formal Federation membership...but certainly nothing more.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Xander, based on data in GPD:Feds, I think the fact that a planet is not a member of the Federation does not imply that they are allowed a fleet of armed warships. Quite the opposite. The Federation asserts sovereignty over all the space within its borders. Some intelligent species are not allowed space travel at all (e.g. Wasp People). So no armed warships. I can see them buying strictly defensive units (ground bases, defsats, skiffs, maybe even auxiliary cruisers) from the Feds, but I can't see them being allowed any units capable of standing up to a Star Fleet ship.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 07:44 pm: Edit

I dunno. With the Fralli, I don't see much, if anything. In such a case, the likely situation is that the Federation just sold them whatever the Fralli needed, rather than have the Fralli bother to develop worthless ships. And just because they were not Federation "members" (of any stripe) didn't mean that the Federation didn't protect them. So, I am not really feeling them.

The Mantorese, however, are more variable. From the sounds of it, they were non-tactical warp prior to any contact with anyone, but if they made meaningful contact prior to Y136, there is a window for them to develop their own W-series, and possibly even Y-series, ships prior to Kzinti occupation.

Actually, if you set it up correctly, so the Mantorese have some kind of contact with someone in the Y60-Y70 range, they become better than even the Carnivon and Paravians, as they stick around for much longer. (They are not removed from the interstellar scene until after the Early Years are completely done.)

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Thursday, January 05, 2012 - 07:52 pm: Edit

Mike West said,

1."...you have to be careful, as Ph-1s need to be rare and special in EY. Giving them out too freely will eliminate that "special"-ness. Not saying don't do it, just do it extremely rarely. Any "generic" phaser-boats would likely need to be focused on Ph-2s, not Ph-1s..."

This is why I suggested replacing only heavy weapons with PH-1s. This means that the average cruiser would have only two Phaser-1s. YDNs might have as many as three. SC4 ships, I think, shouldn't have PH-1s at all but would have only PH-2s or a mix of PH-2s and PH-3s.

2."...The first hurdle is that once shields are figured out, the cat is pretty much out of the bag. So, for example, since the Federation as a whole has shields, it would be very bizarre for, say, the Tellarites to not use them. It could work for someone like the Borak or Vudar, though..."

I wasn't thinking specifically of the Feds here, or that the armored ship in question would not have shields at all (perhaps minimum shields, ie., 3,4, or 5 boxes). My idea was that the primary defence would be armour.

"...The second hurdle is that apparently discovering warp opens up several technologies all at once, and it would require some delicate story-telling to explain why "shields" (which sometimes pre-dated warp) would be late in being developed for that empire. Not insurmountable, but something that has to be included with the submission..."

I don't necessarily buy into this argument. It implies that one technology is dependent on the other or that both are dependent on some third (unspecified) piece of technology. Essentially, that having this (unspecified) 'foundational' technology makes shields and warp simply obvious. Without having the details clarified beforehand I believe it would be presumptuous to make that particular association between tactical warp and shields. The "apparent" link doesn't seem all that apparent to me.

"...The third hurdle is transporters. If an empire is to use armor instead of shields, for whatever reason, they become extremely vulnerable to transporter attacks. This has to be taken into account in some manner..."

The obvious response is to use a form of minimum shielding as I suggested above. ATFs could work too, but I am not in favour of that as it destroys the uniqueness of the Jindarians. Another possibility is to give this speculative ship a horrendous number of boarding parties to dissuade any boarding attempts. Limit the number of transporters to prevent its use as a "Commando Ship". Maybe, in addition to not having shields (or having poor shields), it wouldn't have any transporters, either.

3."...I would definitely like to see #3. When playing with a submission for the Tellarites (which I assume would go no where; it was just for fun), I played with the idea of giving an E turn mode and photons pointing LF+L, RF+R, and RA..."

Neat! Were these to be W-series ships or more like the Y ships? I had been thinking of new construction Early Years Y-type ships when I made the suggestion.