Running rampant on alien threats: Robot Invaders, but Robots in Disguise! Something that looks like a Skiff, but unfolds into a Frigate bristling with weapons! How? I don't know, but it's not an illusion, its movement cost goes from 1/5 to 1/3.

Stealing from other giant fighting robot shows, five of them can combine into a SC2 ship with an even bigger weapon!

One of their weapons has got to be a Macross Missile Swarm: up to a dozen one-box, one damage point warheads.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 12:17 pm: Edit

How an advanced alien technology might increase a ships size/mass and move cost from a smaller size: super advnced transporter technology. Major sections of the ship are stored as energy until needed. The transformation requires all avilable power and leaves the ship vulnerable except for shields. Sections could be added in part to reduce power requirements. Additional crew are kept in stasis.

By Mark S. Hoyle (Resartus) on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Any species capable of doing that Loren, would definitely be smart enough to avoid the crazies in Alpha ---

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 01:15 pm: Edit

A few years back when Seltorian Second Wave was being discussed here, I had the idea of a Seltorian Barrier Drill, an armored Hive/Nestship that was capable of boring through the galactic rim. While the main force would be building up their beachhead along the Klingon/Tholian boder, there would be raiding squadrons being dropped off at random points along the map edge making a mess of the Klingon rear areas. (The Vudar are also sitting near a soft spot in the barrier, so they'll probably be dealing with Hiveships poking their nose through as well.)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 03:18 pm: Edit

If the idea of a new threat is to be somewhere between Y202-210 (between Operation Unity and the Xork incursion) I would hope that, whatever it may be, it can also incorporate the LMC and the Tholians of Draco.

Recent data in Captain's Log has shown that, post-Unity, contact with (and operations in) the Lesser Magellanic Cloud is ongoing; with efforts to hunt down Andromedan holdouts, support the re-establishment of the indigenous empires, and to investigate new avenues of exploration (such as the unknown alien artifact which crippled the GSX Fermi, or the route which Sakharov found leading down to the Omega Octant).

Plus, the return of the Sojourner from the Holdfast to the Draco Dwarf enclave takes place in the mid-Y200s (I forget the exact year); it would be interesting to see if this leads to any further missions to and from these two exile groups.


Here's a thought; if you wanted a new Seltorian wave, what if it didn't show up in the Alpha Octant directly, but in either the LMC or Draco?

The Holdfast could deploy an advanced technology expedition to Draco to hep defend Tholiax from a fresh incursion; while the other Unity forces could task themselves with taking on whatever new threat might approach the Cloud (and thus leave the Magellanic remnants enough breathing space to take on the task of re-conquering their home systems themselves).


Alternatively, there are the Souldra. After Y198, when the Loriyill Splinter Collective finally crushed their fortifications at the Black Sun, the various Souldra dark matter caches in the Void, Wasteland, and Galactic Rim were hunted down one by one; but there is no guarantee that the Loriyill managed to catch them all.

What if a fleeing Souldra task force attempted to seek refuge in a more distant region, seeking to sustain thesmelves on the life energies of anyone who was caught in their path?


(The Souldra aren't exactly a "home" Omega empire anyway, so having a pre-Sakharov encounter with them may not necessarily lead to any major revelation; indeed, there is a published scenario showing a Maghadim-Souldra encounter decades prior to the Andromedan invasion, but no-one was quire sure who those strange intruders were until after contact with Omega was made.)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

Module X1B is Alpha Octent.

LMC and Tholians of Draco, are not.

I suspect that your suggestion to change X1B to deal with the LMC or the Tholians of Draco would be better put into a C module.

just my $0.02 worth.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 04:59 pm: Edit

But the point I'm making is that, post-Operation Unity, the LMC and Draco are no longer wholly separate settings; they are connected, at least partially, to the Alpha Octant.

Not least since we already have several X-ships from Alpha going to and from the LMC.


If we get a follow-on LMC module, that could be a place to show events from this era from the perspective of the surviving Magellanic empires; but that doesn't mean the viewpoint that the Unity powers might have on things should be airbrushed out of this side of the discussion altogether.


In the case of Draco; wherever the Tholians out there were to ever be featured again, the Holdfast side of the equation would still be worth mentioning here, in so far as what kind of impact the opening of formal relations might have on the Holdfast's priorities going forward.

(So far as the Holdfast are concerned, the Draco-Tholians could be the last fellow members of their species to survive anywhere; I would imagine they would want to do whatever they could to support their distant cousins, in as much as the limited resources of the Holdfast can allow for without compromising their own security.)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 07:42 pm: Edit

Which is why (IMO) it needs to be handled in a C Module. Not every one is interested in the Tholians (though I suspect that they rate higher than some of the other major or minor races simply because they were a part of the original canon/back ground).

Unless you (or some enthusiast) writes a fiction/history thingee for captains log, it may bee too big to include in a future CL.

It may take a couple of pages to detail just what exactly the Tholian situation (ie the relationships) between the Holdfast and the LMC and the possibiltiy of one or more other tholian settlements.

Trying to shoehorn your ideas into X1B may not be the best way to handle it.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Perhaps instead of an external threat in this era, the big threat is each other? The genesis of the Trade Wars, as the empires struggle against old enemies and former allies for the newly-important resources required by the new X-economies. Spying, skulduggery, and constant skirmishes in the neutral zones.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Draco was meant to be a teaser presenting a door for future development and access to possible insights to a short bit post-revolt M81. But only for future developement. Otherwise it was just an interesting story.
This is just my personal take on it. ADB may have another.
And it was suppose to be a bit of a cliff-hanger. By the time the Sojourner returned to Draco and got any word back the SFU time line is near over. What that word will say, I don't know but I hope it will be something that will be even more of a cliff hanger.

BUT first, before the side bits of history get worked out the main history of the Alpha Quadrant needs to be done with is X1 and X2. I can't imagine developing anything Draco while X2 isn't done yet (or at least the first X2 module). The same goes for further developemnt of the LMC.
Why tie anything down until that is done?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 11:16 pm: Edit

Terry,

That is the normal state of affairs.

I do think that Joe Carlson was suggesting a "new menace" just to make X1B a little bit different than just another "ship vs ship" module.

but that is just my guess.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 07:28 am: Edit

Jeff, it's not the normal state of affairs. What I'm suggesting is that it would be at a much higher state of intensity.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 03:13 pm: Edit

Terry, "Spying, skulduggery, and constant skirmishes in the neutral zones..." is already a hallmark of many published scenarios.

I think you may need to explain just how this " much higher state of intensity..." comes about, and what SFBs rules will need to be changed so that the X1B ships become the only solution.

They will have to be different in some way as the existing sceniors have been written to account for different BPVs levels.

Joe Carlsons idea for a new common menace avoids that problem.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 09:25 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

I think you may need to explain just how this " much higher state of intensity..." comes about, and what SFBs rules will need to be changed so that the X1B ships become the only solution.

---

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, January 14, 2012 - 01:20 am: Edit

Well, I think there is a need for tactical transportation at X levels of speed. And with half sized pods these could supplant HDW.

HDW are great EXCEPT you have to get shipyarded.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, January 14, 2012 - 10:56 pm: Edit

Terry,

The problem with your suggestion is that it doesnt really mean anything. Unless you are going to write up a half dozen new scenarios that specifically don't repeat any scenarios that have already been published.

The issue is, that the wider neutral zones dont make any substantive changes to existing scenarios... you can change the original CA, CL, DD, or FF hulls for X1B variants, but the substance of the scenarios wont really change, unless you make a rules change or something similar to explain why Middle years or General War year designs are unable to complete the new missions (what ever you would have to invent) that are to be included in X1B.

The idea of a "new menace" was to give the X1B module a common theme similar to what other products had.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 02:03 pm: Edit

The new menace:

Menace One
In X1R the fate Seltorian CAX is unclear as is the records for the three DDXs. I propose the CAX and one DDX made it to the Seltorian base just outside the MW. From there they could build a CCX, SDX, CLX and other variants of the DDX.

I would suggest as part of the Seltorian forces are a hive ship and a nest ship. The hive ship has been converted into a shipyard. That leaves the nest ship as a mobile unit. It is converted to an X-ship. Rear bays carries PFs. Middle bays are repair only bays for SC-3 ships. Forward bays have heavy weapons installed.

Menace Two
One of the Seltorian DDXs escaped but suffered a catastrophic life support system failure. Fortuitously a Tolian patrol found the ship. Now what could the xenophobic Tholians do with this wealth of new information?

Menace Three
The wider and unstable neutral zones. There would be an increase in piracy by various cartels and mercenaries given letters Marque and Reprisal. The empires are cooperating to fights the Andromedans but that does mean they will play nice with their former enemies and allies. The mercs would need ships that are not directly traceable to the empire granting the letters Marque and Reprisal. Some sort of gunfighter ship?

Trade across and near the neutral zone will become more hazardous so empire will build small X-freighters. These designs could be slightly larger version of the fast naval transport and x-versions of small freighters.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Well, this certainly gives us some definite options to discuss!

Just to get the ball rolling...

Menace One: a Quadrant wide invasion of Seltorians, intent on invading the milky Way with advanced X ships?!? not sure the logistics/ production capacity lines up with a narrow time frame as was originally proposed. (ie a two or 3 year thing for up to 6 F&E turns duration).

might be better handled as a C# module expansion for mid trade wars era. (just my $0.02 worth).

Menace Two: Tholian Invasion of the Galaxy from the Hold Fast using stolen Seltorian X technology?!? Wow, you do think big, don't you Joe?!? might be best as a Stellar Shadows Journal thing, not a actual "real" Star Fleet History thing.

Menace Three: What are we going to call this option "Grand Theft Starships" "Trek Doom" or "Shoot'em, Nuk'em Or Doomsday"?!?

Of the Three, I guess I can be converted to Terry's vision if we assume that Privateers and Piracy of the wider neutral zones is not only practical, but the default value. might even create multiple "warrior Kingdoms" where petty warlords control the local domain for power, influence and profit.

I can see the need for a new class of x-versions of small freighters, in this case.

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 06:33 pm: Edit

Menace 2; didn't the holdfast develop X-tech independently? What special benefit would they get from the seltorian's x-ship?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 06:53 pm: Edit

1) I can't wrap my mind around the idea that the Seltorians (X-ships or not) could be a menace to the entire octant. No.

2) Can't see the Tholian Holdfast with web breakers and particle cannon (on X-ships or not) being a threat to the whole octant. Not even just the Klingons.

3) I don't think 'wider' neutral zones is canon. If it is, please point me to the product showing this. (Not Supplement #2 please).

Small X-freighters is a 2x thing, not 1x.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 07:21 pm: Edit

You guys might want to define the time frame for these things because there is already stuff happening such as the Trade Wars and then the Xorkaelien Invasion (beginning with earlier raids).

SVC has said the Neutral Zones returned to pre-war lines, although there was a devestated zone reaching into each empire some from the NZ.

These were areas officially in possesion of their respective empires but, IIRC, were less supported for a time while each empire worked on rebuilding.

I would think a new menace for another X1 module would have to be Pre Y200 and fairly isolated like a monster and such. IMO

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Letters of Marque and Reprisal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque

The Romulans commissioned privateers prior to the General War. See (SH20.0) Advanced Missions. Orion cartels use heavily armed (for their size) ships for piracy. A privateer is sanctioned by the empire that commissioned it.

The areas of each empire bordering the neutral zone were ravished by the GW, ISC pacification, and Andromedans. In R11 page 44 last paragraph "...Other empires had more,or less, trouble with border crossing adventurers. The security concerns drove the Klingons, Kzintis, and Romulans to the point of insanity, and they finally had to establish "interior" borders a thousand parsecs from the neutral zone." If one applies a similar "interior" zone to other races with some exceptions like the Vudar and Tholians we end up with a 2500 parsec wide zone.

Two classes of X-ships could be developed an X-ship that replaces the pre-GW CA (CAX) and X-privateers based on war destroyer classes.

In one of the Captain Logs a description of MW ring extending from the core was published. It is 500 parsecs thick. At the top and bottom is a zone about 125 parsecs thick/wide of a storm/radiation zone. The middle 250 parsecs is were most colonies and prospecting is. Combine this with the 2500 parsec wide zone and the destruction of sensors caused by decades of war you have a vast area of space to hide in and conduct raids/attacks from.

The Seltorians would be localized as raiders. Gosts or spectors haunting the devastated areas.

The Tholians would use the information obtained from the DDX's computers for ways to defend against web breakers and for clues to the ship building and weapons technology lost.

X1 mentioned X-freighters. X1R has these as X-auxiliary battlecruisers. The could sell commercial versions for the fast freight business.

Some empires ight develop this technology for an X-operational base. This allows for X-freighters.

The X-version of the DCS would be used to patrol the 1000+ parsec area and flag ship for a sector. The difference between the GW version and X-version would be the addition of two heavy weapons.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 07:10 pm: Edit

"Super-Fast" X-Ships

I've been thinking about a new "class" of X-ships that bear approximately the same relationship to "regular" X-ships that "fast" ships (CFs, DNLs, etc.) bear to standard tech ships. In a nutshell, "Standard tech" warships have an F&E speed of 6. CFs and DNLs have an F&E speed of 7, as do X-ships. My proposed class of "super-fast" X-ships (probably cruisers) would have less firepower than a typical X-cruiser but would have F&E speed of 8. Their mission would be different from the CF/DNL mission, which was primarily "raiding" behind enemy lines. The superfast X-ships were intended specifically for RTN hunting. They were built (I hypothesize) only after the nature of the RTN was discovered, so they were never available in large numbers. Most empires only built one class, based on an X-tech cruiser. Any of these ships that survived into the post-Andromedan "Trade Wars" period might indeed have been used for raiding missions, being even faster than X-ships. But that's not why they were built in the first place.

I want to divide the rest of this post into two sections. The first will explain the role I see for these ships in RTN hunting. The second section will describe approximately what I think a "super-fast" X-ship should look like.

RTN Hunting
The viability of this proposal depends on my understanding of RTN Hunting being correct, so I want to explicitly state some basic assumptions. If those assumptions are false and my understanding of RTN Hunting is mistaken, the rationale for this proposal is probably not viable. Before posting this I checked through the various books and couldn't find anything that contradicted my assumptions. But I admit my search was not exhaustive.

1. Only ships with Special Sensors can find RTN nodes.
As far as I have been able to find, even the advanced sensors available to (non-scout) X-ships cannot reliably locate RTN nodes. Only true scouts can do this.

2. Other ships in the vicinity interfere with RTN location.
I think this one is pretty well established by the source material and explains why "primary" RTN Hunters are either carriers or PF tenders (or both, in the case of the Kzinti Super Space Control Ship or Romulan Thunderhawk). When docked, the fighters and/or PFs don't interfere with detecting the signs of the RTN, and once the RTN is found the fighters/PFs can launch to greatly increase the RTN Hunter's firepower.

3. If the RTN Hunter finds an RTN Node that it lacks the firepower to defeat, the race is on.
The "primary" RTN Hunter, having found a node too large or well defended for the hunter to defeat, immediately calls for reinforcements. The Andromedan will likewise contact Andromedan ships in the area. If Andromedan ships are able to relocate the RTN node before substantial galactic power forces can get there, the Andros have suffered a setback, but not a crippling one. They reconstitute the node elsewhere. But if the galactic reinforcements get there first, the Andros have suffered a far more serious defeat. That RTN node is destroyed, and the galactics can ultimately replace any ships lost in the attack, even expensive X-ships, much more readily than the Andros could replace a destroyed node. This is why X-cruisers are better "secondary" RTN Hunters than dreadnoughts, even if the dreadnoughts have the same or better combat power at the tactical level. The X-cruiser simply has a better chance of reaching the node before the andros can relocate it. And this explains why I think "super-fast X-ships" would exist (if the technology permits - something only SVC can answer) and why they would be based on X-cruisers. They can get to the RTN node even faster than other X-ships. And even with reduced combat systems they are still formidable warships, perhaps equal, or even slightly superior to, an X-tech light cruiser. A "super-fast X-frigate" on the other hand, might not bring enough firepower to the fight to make much difference, even if it did get there in time.

What should a super-fast X-cruiser look like?
Though CFs and DNLs both have reduced weapons but better power at high speed than conventional ships in their respective classes, they achieve this in two different ways. CFs have the same MC as CAs but have significantly more powerful warp engines. DNLs actually have the same warp engines (at least in terms of tactical power output) as standard DNs, and less power over all due to fewer APRs/impulse engines/batteries. they achieve their superior remaining power at high speed through their reduced movement cost. I suggest that super-fast X-cruisers actually follow the DNL path because I think it would be less likely to produce fatal imbalances in the system. Taking an X-cruiser and increasing the power of its warp engines would be very problematical, I think, even with a reduced weapon load.

With that in mind, here is a suggested super-fast X-cruiser, based on the Fed CX. Other empires would follow a similar general plan. All changes discusse below are to the saucer section.

1. Reduce photon torpedos from 4 to 3.
2. Reduce phaser-1s from 12 to 10.
3. Reduce AWR from 4 to 2, batteries from 5 to 4.
4. Reduce MC to ⁵/₆

There might be some additional reductions in other saucer systems, such as lab or hull. But the above changes are the critical ones.

I do not believe the vessel described above is the equal of a CX in tactical combat, even with a bit more power at high speed. But it should be able to beat most X-tech ligh cruisers (the Orion BRX, Hydran Tartar-X, and some ISC ships being possible exceptions). I would certainly take this ship over a Klingon D5X or Kzinti CMX. So it seems to fit the combat power level I was aiming for, though it should be playtested to see if that is really the case.

Most other empires would follow simialr patterns but the Tholians are problematic. Their MC-1 X-cruiser is the NCX, and we already know that both NCAs which survived in good enough shape to be converted to X-ships were converted to that model. I can't see the Tholians using an NCX hull for this purpose. So two choices remain, the Tholians didn't build any "super-fast X-ships" or they built theirs on a base ²/₃ hull. I suggest if the latter option is chosen, the hull would be either the CAX/PAX (if it determined the ship didn't receive a rare webcaster) or the CCX/CPX (if it did receive a webcaster). Like the NCA, the NCL cannot be built in this galaxy. Presumably all convertible NCLs were converted to NLXs. And the CWX has a weak weapon suite by the standards of X-tech light cruisers. Further reducing it to make the ship "super-fast" might nudge it toward "not powerful enough to do much good" territory. But a CAX or CCX with reduced power and weapons per the above description, and a ³/₅ MC might be viable.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 08:11 pm: Edit

This is an interesting idea, however; take a look at the CSX from X1R.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 09:32 pm: Edit

I have an unfinished rule touching on the same subject regarding Fast X-ships.

It was that you apply the same hull modifications of a fast ship to an X-ship.

Tactically there is little benifit. Such a ship could get movement precedence over regular X-ships but that's about it.

Strategically (F&E) they could raid targets that ONLY X-ships could react to. (This is huge actually.)

Heavy weapons would be reduced the same as with Fast ships, but there would be no added power.
BPV might even be reduced some.