Sounds like Steve Petrick has a nice set of 2 or 3 or 4 ships to do for CL46. I'd stop at just heavy cruiser variants, since the point is a CR10 ship not to fill in every "missing idea" in the ship list. I don't think there is enough benefit be worth adding a flag bridge to a destroyer.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 04:18 pm: Edit

I've noticed there is no CR 5,6,7, or 9 Seltorian ships in C5. I kinda like the idea of a short-plug (a.la. the NCA/NVS) for some of the Selties.

Though maybe the YIS should match the NCA, to account for why they didn't do such things before. Same YIS suggests they didn't think of it until then or didn't have the facilities until then.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Uhm . . . A command Cruiser has a command rating of "9." Are we talking about also trying to create some kind of Seltorian "Battle Cruiser" not based on their existing battle cruiser (which uses a DN rear hull and is thus unbuildable in the Milky Way short of building a shipyard) that has a Command Rating of 10 (versus the DNL design which has a command rating of 9 like the Milky Way DNLs)?

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 04:26 pm: Edit

SPP- One use for the TT's is for the campaign conjectural role. I'm not saying they are required mind you, but a cargo pod only version (ala the restrictions placed upon the Romualn FH based tug) may be of use in player campaigns.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Howard Bampton:

I am not at this point certain if you are using TT for "Theater Transport" or "tug" as the Romulan ship you are citing is a conjectural tug, and the Seltorians got a Conjectural Tug in Module R9 (and a Conjectural LTT in Captain's Log #25).

By Mark S. Hoyle (Resartus) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 05:50 pm: Edit

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Seltorians don't have an early means to transfer EPs to grow their economy or blockade-run supplies to separated units.

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Just for clarity what are we talking about:

1. A standard Command Cruiser (CC) with CR9 and compot 9/5

2. Some sort of Battle Command Cruiser (CCB) with CR10 and compot 10/5 using the Selts CA rear hull

3. Both

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As to the DDL, the request was for Destroyer Leader (CR5) didn't ask for any added FLAG boxes -- just an added AUX CON to improve its command rating and +1AF to use the leader rule in F&E (no added DDL counter required as a result).

As stated there are significant gaps in CR5/6/7 Seltorian ships.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 06:01 pm: Edit

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Seltorians have an economy?

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By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 06:17 pm: Edit

I am not sure a Command Rating 10 unit is going to be possible. I will talk it over with SVC, but there have to be real limits to what the Hive Ship can do, and we have already done the NCA and the DNL, and that does not leave very many options with the CA/CL hull.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:22 pm: Edit

Hmmm, unless one is talking about an extended boom, I don't think the Selts can field a CR10 ship on their CA hull (the DNL seems to be the best they can do)...

As for the CC, a command mini-boom that adds the Flag Bridge, extra phaser (or two) and some APR for power would seem workable...

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Why add Flag bridge? As far as I know, the DNL doesn't even have one. And the DNL is considered to be a "Heavy Command Unit" (Module R7).

One could add a DD-size NCA-boom in the centre socket of the CA. That should accomplish the job (adding more "stuff") and use an already existing component.

Two considerations, though:
1. Will the larger outer booms block part of the FA arc of the phasers on the smaller central boom?
2. Will the mass of the added boom increase the Movement Cost?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:12 pm: Edit

The Seltorians already have a CR9 ship that was historically built in the Alpha Octant, the DNL from R7. (A 3-boom CA-hull)

Additionally per the R-section, it says 3-boom DN-hulls and DD-hulls (super DN or super battle destroyer) is already on file.

So was that misinformation or is it still buried at the sprawling ADB campus?

Regarding the Selt-TT, a FF-hull w/o WB, reduced transporters, shuttles, and possibly side P1s (to make space for the P-3s to move up), could probably fit a 9-box cargo bay in the center.

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:35 pm: Edit

SPP- Downside of typing from work is that I can't check to see what has been published. My comment was that campaign conjectural basic things (tug, DN, etc.) help those of us that run ahistorical campaigns- when the game (Galactic Conquest in my case) requires you to have a non-CW/DW class scout, a SR, a tug, etc. it is nice to have an "official" one to keep players honest. Since the Selts have a published tug, the need for a theatre transport (TT) to cover the "tug/tuglike" requirement is met. Obviously, the conjectural hulls aren't critical, but I know sometimes ADB needs an extra ship for an empire to make things come out even.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:49 pm: Edit

The three boom DD hull is their NCL (published).

The three boom CA hull is size class 2 dreadnought with move cost 1.25 and by definition will cost 12 EP for a 10 compot unit (witness the Fed DN10).

The proposed CC would cost 9 EP for a 9 compot unit (just like all other CCs).

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:44 pm: Edit

The CC would definately be a valuable ship on the offensive. I believe the Seltorian Admirals would understand the value of the CC in combat against the Tholians. Doublely so when you consider (303.93) which gives the Tholians a +1 to their command rating when inside the holdfast, not to exceed a CR of 10.

The Tholians have a good number of advantages that won't be easily overcome by the Seltorians in regards to EW, Attrition Units, and overall ship count. Add to this a command rating disparity and the other advantages beceome even more of an advantage.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 10:47 am: Edit

The Tholians do indeed have "a good number of advantages" over the Selts, but I wouldn't include attrition units among those advantages. The Tholian PF is one of the best in Alpha, but so is the Selt. And as for fighters, the Selts use Klingon ZY-Cs and those badly outclass the Tholian Spider-IIs and Spider-IIIs. I think the Selts actually have the advantage in attrition units; slight inferiority in PFs but marked superiority in fighters.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 11:00 am: Edit

Alan, the Tholians will have the advantage in the number of attrition units available for the purposes of F&E Combat. They will be fighting at fixed defenses with fighters, and, more often than not, PFs. They will also have the advantage of a larger fleet and combat experience with all those attrition units from their battles with the Klingon Empire. They will also have the advantage, currently, of having ships with higher command ratings to give them more firepower.

Yes the Klingon ZYs are superior to the Tholian Spiders. The PFs are about equal.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 11:58 am: Edit

In those late years mix Tholian fighters with web casters on the ships and I think you can close the gap.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 12:30 pm: Edit

I could see a simple small plug that has one end that fits CA/CL sockets and the other end fits DD/FF sockets. The plug itself would have say 2 Flag and either 2 APR or Battery, and add CR 1 to whatever it is plugged into. This would be a small quick fix the Klingons suggested and be cheap and inadequate compared to a real CC, but quick and easy.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Alan:

While what you said may be correct in the SFB realm, unit-for-unit all like attrition units in F&E are equal.

A big concern is finding Seltorians outnumbered whist facing every Tholian base that will by default of (303.93) be at CR10.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Well, to me, things are not all that simple. As I have already alluded, there is a need to do research, and I invite anyone to do so.

Is there something that says the Seltorians did not operate Command Ships?

So far, the Tholians in the Home Galaxy pretty much had "Command Modules." These had flag bridge and increased the command rating of the corresponding NON-Dreadnought NON-Battleship hull. Thus the NCH in Module R12 has a command rating of 8+1, i.e., 9, because it has a flag command module.

It is not definitively set in stone that the Tholians used collars for their NDNs, NCAs, and NCLs (the NDD and NFF is even less clear) in their home galaxy, but obviouly attaching a flag command module to an NCA gave you a "Command Cruiser" and the same would give you a "Command Light Cruiser." So the Tholian Will probably (at this juncture) did not have "dedicated" command cruisers (they had flag command modules).

That being the case, I have to regard it as unlikely that there was a Seltorian "Command Cruiser" in the home galaxy, or that the Seltorians would have developed one in the few years it took for their revolt to overwhelm The Will. This is too bad because it would otherwise be the simplest solution, i.e., a "command cruiser" used by the Seltorians in the home galaxy that it is then simple to say the Hive Ship (or a Nest Ship) could build (with some kind of restriction that keeps them from building it only).

So, at this juncture it seems the Tholians had command ships (albeit by simply swapping out the Command Modules), but in the Home Galaxy the Seltorians did not. Obviously there were by the time the Seltorians showed up no major command problems (no one was in a position to revolt with a non-Tholian non-Seltorian fleet). And not letting the Seltorian have intermediate command platforms is not a problem (they could use a DN or BC when they needed one, or a Neo-Tholian ship could provide the guidance). There were, in any case, not likely to be many problems that required more than a nine-ship task force led by a Seltorian CA, and most problems probably required far fewer ships.

However, we still could fill out the Seltorian Fleet with Command Variants (if SVC so directs, since these would then flow into Federation Commander, Starmada, A Call to Arms, and Federation & Empire, he has to make the call as the overall coordinator of the Star Fleet Universe).

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Can fleets without command ships win against fleets with command ships? Obviously the Seltorians beat the Tholians in the home galaxy and destroyed planets, starbases, and base stations with their fleets. Would their revolt have been even more successful with command ships, probably. Would they need command ships after the Tholians had been eliminated in the Home Galaxy? What threats would the the Seltorians face in the home galaxy? Are the Seltorians now in charge of other fleets and do they have a "most favorite" smaller empire of ships under their control as they were once the "most favored subject" and fleets under Tholian rule? After control was established in the home galaxy and Seltorian Tribunal fleets where sent after fleeing Tholians, were Seltorian Command Units developed and fielded in the home galaxy? Is it possible that these design blueprints were then transmitted to the Hive Ships that left the home Galaxy?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 03:38 pm: Edit

Shawn Hantke:

The Seltorians had command ships, BCHs and DNs with Command Ratings of 10, and used Hive Ships (with web breakers in their construction bays) to crack the Dyson Spheres.

It is questionable as to whether or not they needed CCs at all.

The Seltorians had no battleships (one of the Trump Cards of The Will).

What they did have was the complacency of the Tholian Will, and that in turn may have allowed them to build a lot of ships The Will was unaware of. They also knew they were going to revolt, and knew where The Will bases and Dyson Spheres were, but The Will did not know their "Genetically Engineered to be Loyal Most Trusted Species" were going to revolt, and the difference in biospheres kind of requires a certain degree of trust in the reports of construction and losses made by trusted enforcers.

On the day of the revolt, one can assume that it made Pearl Harbor look like an American Victory by comparison. The Will, a galaxy spanning empire, was annihilated in "only a few years" by the Seltorian revolt that began planning only a decade before it struck. And this was despite the Tholians getting wind it was coming (they destroyed the shipyard that made the original web breaker discovery).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 03:52 pm: Edit

SPP: I did do a bit of research.

R15.2 and R15.3 state no DNs or BCHs appeared in our galaxy. For their home galaxy, Seltorians clearly could field full battle fleets with their DNs and BCHs (command rating 10 each). Thus, for bigger battles during the rebellion they would not have had a handicapped command and control structure. CAs likely could command any force which would require a fewer number of ships, though theoretically they may have been at a disadvantage in certain battles. However, their home galaxy doesn't appear to have required CCs or leader variants. The implied scale of the rebellion seems to imply that DNs and BCHs would not have been in short supply relative to their needs to take on the Tholian Will.

As for OUR galaxy, Seltorian background specifically states that they were at an increasing disadvantage due to lack of heavy command units. R15.25 first sentence of the description of the Seltorian DNL in module R7. From the same source, we learn that the solution was to mount a third standard boom into the central socket of a standard cruiser rear hull - and the Seltorian "DNL" was born (the source indicates that the Seltorian DNL wasn't really comparable to Alpha Octant DNLs). The DNL has a command rating of 9. It is also noted that the Seltorians appeared to have technological difficulty performing the conversion from CA to DNL, and needed Klingon engineers to help. Thus, it may be inferred reasonably that the Seltorians gave great thought to their command deficiencies but were unable to come up with a solution, except for the Klingon-suggested and assisted CA->DNL conversion.

That being said, they DID have a command rating 10 ship. The Hive ship has a command rating of 10, but obviously committing the hive ship to action would only be done if assaulting a major Tholian base where the probability of success was deemed a given (or if the hive ship were attacked and they had no choice but to fight). Thus, again, they did have a rather urgent need for something better in the command department, but explicitly failed to come up with a solution - but for the DNL.

Anyway, built into the history of the Seltorian presence in the Alpha Octant is the notion they had a lack of command ships, for which the only solution was the DNL in Y184 (two years after they arrived).

That being said I can see no reason why you might not want to put on command modules as a variant - but the history of Seltorian command issues in the Alpha Octant seems to be covered and would have to be modified at least somewhat.

There is some precedent for changing doctrines for the Seltorians. The entry for the CVS in R15.20 in module R6 provides "While the original data files on the Seltorians included flat statements that the Tribunal did not operate fighters or carriers, later research has determined that this was not the case. A single Seltorian CVS (and one DDV) were built to provide fighter support to counter the Tholian fighters then in service." These ships operated Klingon fighters.

Thus, it's certainly possible that "later research" could indicate that the Seltorians did come up with a command module solution. It could also indicate that perhaps the Seltorians would have come up with a command module solution after Y186, but for the ISC pacification effectively initiating the bitter end for the Seltorians in our galaxy.

Still further, a CC could be added to the home galaxy units and indicated as an UNV unit for our galaxy.

I am not taking a position on the issue, only pointing out what I learned doing a bit of research and then thougth I'd provide a few suggestions.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 03:58 pm: Edit

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Additionally per the R-section, it says 3-boom DN-hulls and DD-hulls (super DN or super battle destroyer) is already on file.

So was that misinformation or is it still buried at the sprawling ADB campus?

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