In response to the sub idea, a picket ship is easy to find BECAUSE IT IS ACTIVELY EMITTING. It has to do that to find the enemy. That means you can track it from further than it can spot you, and find and kill it. I don't care how much stealth you have, using active emissions tells everyone where you are. Unless you have the equivalent of a cloaking device (like a Romulan, or a Frax sub) and can use that to disengage when the hunters show up, you're found. That's just how it works in the real world, and how it works in the SFU.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 02:49 am: Edit

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In the SFU, non-warship naval auxiliaries are modified civilian, that is freighter, hulls.

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Unless you have the equivalent of a cloaking device (like a Romulan, or a Frax sub) and can use that to disengage when the hunters show up, you're found. That's just how it works in the real world, and how it works in the SFU.

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By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 09:12 am: Edit

You can postulate 'spy ships' existing in the SFU, regardless of time period.

Since the only differance from a regular freigher is that a spy ship is going to have super-secret comm gear (which could be represented by Special Sensor boxes....which don't do any Special Sensor stuff....in fact, just call them Strategic Sensors....that have no tactical use whatever) hidden/built into the ship, you can simply use freighter SSD's, give it an insanely huge Econ BPV, and yer done.

Or just say the spy ship carries spies and the ship IS an actual freighter. Not everything is going to need an SSD.

But lets do a hypothetical ELINT ship in the SFU.

Take small/large freighter. Armed, unarmed, whatever.

Add a Strategic Sensor box. This is treated as a Special Sensor as far as damage goes (repair, damage priority, blah blah blah), but has absolutely NO ABILITIES in a tactical situation. It specifically can not use ANY of the rules for Special Sensors. It represents passive sensor/communications devices.

The Strategic Sensor can't be detected unless you board the ship, and the crew can destroy it (without damaging the ship) instantly at any time if necessary.

Give it a ludicrous Econ BPV, bang yer done.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 10:42 am: Edit

I'd think a spy ship would be based on a Free Trader with military engines. The spy equipement might be on an MRS or even a SWAC.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 11:11 am: Edit

MRSes and SWACS being well and truly unavailable in the Y period, which is what this topic is about... In any case, these aren't "spy ships" they are pickets, there to spot approaching enemy vessels in wartime.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 11:33 am: Edit

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Except "real life" doesn't have anything like "sublight evasion" where you can even theoretically disappear in a single spot.

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 11:57 am: Edit

oops.
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Ships that can land can also disappear and still see what is out there; although I don't know that the rules have defined how far beyond the tactical map they can sense.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 12:17 pm: Edit

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MRSes and SWACS being well and truly unavailable in the Y period, which is what this topic is about... In any case, these aren't "spy ships" they are pickets, there to spot approaching enemy vessels in wartime.

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In WWII, you have your radar pickets broadcasting "here I am!!" and they can be located and destroyed by aircraft. Can't run from aircraft, got to hide. Hence, submersion. Not a problem in the SFU. The picket ship can simply disengage toward the fleet, and ships at high warp are very vulnerable so it can be very dangerous for the attacker to pursue.

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By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 12:27 pm: Edit

Another thought about the Radar Picket, if it stops working that also indicates a problem, and is another way that it does its job.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 02:31 pm: Edit

The particular nit-picky and overly literal might notice that the comparison to literally an SFU MRS or SWACS scaled up to ship-size isn't quite exact, as MRS and SWACS aren't really uses as modern AEW/AWACS units. For example, they provide no modifier for (S4.22), which you would certainly expect a unit of this type and role to do.

So this proposal would be for a ship that does something slightly different than we have seen before, reflecting an interest in having EW and detection support in the Y-era, but not having scouts on ships.

I'd propose the functions of the ship in SFB terms would be:
- An (S4.22) bonus for weapons status for the fleet it is 'attached' to
- Gains the (G24.322) bonus for increasing range of enemy ships required for disengagement
- Gains the (G24.323) bonus for detecting hidden ships

There would be no SSD item for these specific capabilities, just passive benefits by nature of the design. Ergo, the design would have to have some major variation from typical warships. Of the top of my head, maybe:
- No heavy weapons
- More lab boxes?
- Stealth coating (still think this is a good idea, as it explains a historical footnote. That is - it just seems so unlikely the Orions developed stealth technology entirely on their own...but adapting now-obsolete military technology? Sure, easy enough to do!)
- Maybe even limited engine doubling of some kind to help them "get away" if they get caught

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 03:01 pm: Edit

I don't think these things are available in the early years, especially engine doubling, which is NEVER available for anyone but Orions, and not for them during this period.

Any such capability WOULD have to be on the SSD imo. There are a few cases of 'capabilities' not requiring a box on the SSDs (such as 'are you a minesweeper?') but 'light special sensors', to give it a name, is not one of them. Essentially, you seem to be trying to invent a scout substitute (for long range detection), which simply is something not available in early years. I don't see a need to change that at this late point.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 03:40 pm: Edit

The (S4.22) bonus, at least, does not indicate anything about requiring a special sensor channel - merely that the ship is a scout. I suppose I could see the (G24.32x) bonuses being withheld without an SSD item, but there doesn't seem to be anything in (S4.22) that requires an active 'scout channel' to gain the benefit.

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a scout substitute

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 07:14 pm: Edit

Prior to the general war it was thought that scouts would NOT be providing EW support but were meant for long range scanning, which is basically what you are suggesting.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 07:52 pm: Edit

Given that, wouldn't it make sense that such a doctrine would have some precedence? A ship being used in that role (early warning) before scout channels were attached to it? (And once the scout channels WERE attached, it gained a number of new duties as well)

Basically just looking for the predecessor to the standard fleet scouts of the General War. No deployment strategy or technology springs into being whole cloth with no background. PFs came after interceptors. Fighters came after armed shuttles. Booster packs came after 'hot warp'. Phaser-1s came after Phaser-2s which came after lasers (not WTLs, regular lasers). Everything has a development path that is visible throughout the Y-era and MY-era...

...except scouts. They just *poof* appear in everyone's fleet, fully formed, with all the (G24.0) capabilities, all the fleet doctrine in support of them, supply lines, tactics, etc whole cloth in the MY-era.

I don't buy that. Not for something so complicated it rates higher than most heavy weapons on the weapons priority list for taking damage (G24.17). Granted, some bases had scout channels in the Y-era, which would allow for development of the scout functions, themselves, but that doesn't speak to deployment support and fleet usage tactics.

A ship lacking special sensors, but providing (S4.22) boosting capability, not designed with heavy weapons but designed with expanded survivability (maybe just larger warp engines than the ship would nominally have - CA engines on a DD-sized hull) would be the ticket to help explain the development of some of these deployment ideas. Maybe add some capabilities like the MRS towards the end of the Y-era, and then by MY, full-on scout ships.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 08:51 pm: Edit

Actually, I do kind of like the idea of scouts being a new dynamic in the Middle Years era; well, for anyone who wasn't a Vulcan or Jindarian, at least.

(Or, if you really want to get technical, the Tholians. They never bothered with their own scouts in the home galaxy, or in the Milky Way before Y125; but, since all of the pre-Revolt technology used by the Seltorians has been handed over by the Tholians, the special sensors on a Hive Ship/Battlewagon showed that the Tholians were capable of putting sensors on a ship if they were actually bothered to do so.)


Just because the new scouts started to emerge in the Y120s doesn't mean that the various star fleets were experts in them overnight. It would have taken years, of not decades, for the scouts to be filtered into widesread service; just as long for their crews to gain expertise in their operation; and an even longer time for the various admiralties in the Alpha Octant to understand just how to incorporate these platforms into their evolving tactical and strategic doctrines.

(The Federation would have had a head-start thanks to the Vulcans; but the likes of the Klingons and Kzintis would at least have been able to learn from Star Fleet's example.)


Think of what happened when X-ships first appeared. When the first Vincennes-class CX entered service (or rather, when it proved the X-ship concept strongly enough to warrant further production), the Federation had to not only deal with the raging arguments over at Star Fleet Headquarters over just how to use these new and improved ships; but also to go out and essentially build an entirely new economy from the ground up in order to generate enough XTPs to make first-generation advanced technology work. It really wasn't until the Andromedan War was well underway before X-technology truly became a major factor in the Alpha Octant.


And to be honest, I would prefer if the Early Years fleets weren't so bothered with electronic warfare support; with the Vulcans being something of an exception (and even then, one which may not have been quite so much of a game-changer as they might be made out to be).


Plus, if you want to send a ship ahead of the fleet to snoop around, one could send a frigate; at least that ship would be able to link up with the rest of the fleet if it makes it back in ine piece.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Gary, (XR0.0) indicates X-technology did not spontaneously appear with the CX Vincennes, but was, rather, a "series of interrelated technological developments over a brief period of time....by far the most common implementation of this technology was the “partial refit” which included only some systems"

And even then, there is no X-system or X-technology that is literally "new" and unlike anything deployed to a starship before. Phaser-1Xs are quite similar to Phaser-1s and Phaser-Gs. X-Impulse no different from regular impulse. X-Batteries just like regular batteries in usage, just storing a bit more power. Plasma-M a fascinating mix between a Plasma-R and Plasma-S. etc, et al.

Every technology in the SFU to date, from any period since the Q-era, has had some kind of development path and predecessor technology.

Except special sensors, and the role of the "scout" ship (especially in early warning).

And as noted, I'm not suggesting some kind of "early special sensors", but, rather, dedicated ships in the role of 'scout' that the later fleet scouts can be seen to have grown from. The 'radar picket boats' of the SFU. An interim technology between the non-tactical-warp (Q era) where ships were slow or vulnerable at slow warp speeds and the pell-mell rapid combat of the General War supported by scouts.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 11:45 pm: Edit

So the EY "advanced sensor" can (from the special sensor list) can:

1) S level tac intel ranges improved
2) Increase lab capabilities

CANNOT:
1) Turn off seekers
2) Loan EW
3) Generate EW for own use? (maybe only defensive EW?)
4) Attract seekers

what else?

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 11:58 pm: Edit

Mike, they can also:

3) Increase the WS of their fleet (G24.321)
4) Increase the range required for disengagement (G24.322)
5) Perhaps, maybe, kinda detect hidden units sooner? (G24.323)

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 12:15 am: Edit

Hadn't really though of 'generate EW for their own use'. As a powered device? Definitely not, no question. And obviously none of the other scout functions (lending EW, attract seekers, etc).

But maybe foreshadow the next leap in technology...EW in the EY period is limited to 4 total points. What about this - from Y62 to, say, Y91 there is no special capability, here. From Y91 to Y120, 'sensor picket' ships can generate 6 total EW for themselves, same as General War-era ships. Not lent or anything like that, basically exactly the same as regular MY/GW-era ship EW capabilities rather than the limit-of-4 Y-era EW capabilities. (You could suppose that the development of sensor picket ships that can detect and hide better...with the somewhat enhanced self-EW-capability in Y91...could be part of the reason the Klingons decided to engage in a major offensive against the Tholians in Y92)

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 02:54 am: Edit

I can see the above...

Or even as a powered means to loan self up to 2 points of EW.

Hmm

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Other thoughts on sensor picket ships:
- The Federation will probably not have as many variants of these as other races, given the presence of some actual-special-sensor-equipped Vulcan ships when available.
- Romulans obviously don't have these - given functional masking/cloaking devices, and sublight evasion automatically possible on any ship, they would simply use regular warships in the 'picket' role with no special configuration necessary.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 08:28 pm: Edit

Thought for the Romulans in Module Y4, as they otherwise don't really have any ships to include...

What about the designs that didn't make the cut for refits? So far, out of all the empires, the Romulans appear to have the most FANTASTICALLY successful shipwrights, in that *every single design* we've seen from their sublight-converted-to-warp period has received upgrades all the way into the General War (Snipe, Hawk, Warbird, Falcon, Vulture).

What of the designs that didn't make the cut? Surely, they had at least a FEW sublight ships that were able to be uprated a bit in the 'Early' period with plasma torpedoes, WTLs, masking/veil devices...but just couldn't fit tactical warp engines, phasers, MY/GW-era EW kits (or even perhaps the final 'cloaking device' evolution) to them, so we never saw them in the General War.

Suggestions:
- A 3x Plasma-G 'heavy cruiser'
- A 1x Plasma-R, 2x Plasma-G 'light dreadnought'
- A 3x Plasma-R 'sublight battleship'

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 10:16 pm: Edit

It seems that the sublight ships were built tough and could be substantially upgraded (look at the Federation old CL, Kzinti Tug, many Romulans) but nobody but the Roms chose to do so for more than one or two classes. The Roms did so because they had to, not because the designs were especially good. (Note that the Roms were still using substantial numbers of sublight freighters during the GW, because they just didn't have enough tactical warp freighters to replace the whole merchant fleet.)

That said, I think the ships you suggest are interesting ideas. A 1xR, 2xG Vulture variant might be fun to fly.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 01:40 am: Edit

I think the Fed Old CL and Kzinti Tug (sort of) are the only two examples I can think of, outside of the Romulan fleet, of "sublight ships" still in service well into the General War.

Granted, necessity is a factor - but even the upgrades they DID do, they managed to push farther than most other races. I think only the Falcon failed to end up with engines that could get it to speed 30 by the end of the General War. And you gotta admit - 'necessity' or no - it's a little hard to believe that EVERY sublight ship they had, with no exception, could be upgraded all the way serving in the late-war era. The current view of the Romulans appear to have done far better than average on that, having no designs at all (that we've seen, anyway) that couldn't be so upgraded. IMHO, it's more likely that they only upgraded the most widely produced, most reliable, or most useful ships to the GenWar standards, and actually had a number of other ship types we just haven't seen yet because there was no reason to - they couldn't be upgraded.
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Anyway, aside from that discussion - something else genuinely surprising - in the direction of "not a variant, but an entirely new design"...given the Gorn tendency to try to approach from behind on the Romulan ships, it's a wonder that the Romulans never tried rear-mounted heavy weapons to discourage that.

I wouldn't expect it to be a COMMON design...but in a group of regular Warbirds or Hawks, one or two ships with a rear-firing Plasma G would certainly give a Gorn squadron trying to circle around them some reason for caution. (At the moment, the best tactic for a slow approach to a target that has ships defending it is to bunch up, and have one of your Hawks just fly in reverse to provide some rear-arc defense. Which is kinda silly.)

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 02:18 am: Edit

...as a thought on that 'why no rear-mounted weapons'...that might actually be as good a candidate as any to see some entirely-original designs that didn't get upgraded to the General War-period. After all, the only real use case for 'rear-firing heavy weapons' is dealing with the fact that the Romulan ships can't turn fast enough to deal with a Gorn approaching from behind. Once the Romulans have tactical warp engines to slap on the ships and can actually TURN fast enough to hit a ship coming up from behind...well, these would just be wasted weapons, then. The split heavy weapons on the ship (fore and aft) would be impossible to concentrate fire with, so those designs would have died with the end of the Romulan sublight era, and never been refitted to use warp.

But until those warp engines DO become available, though...it's a rather handy capability to have in your fleet.