Personally I have next to no desire to own the Omega modules. I would love to have a sort of new Module TR (Maybe TR-O), with the weapons rules and any other special rules that are needed for the Omega tournament ships. That is something I would gladly buy.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 01:02 am: Edit

Stephen,

Don't have my books in front of my, but from memory, those rules would be probably over a hundred pages in length. There's probably 50-60 systems that you'd need if you had TCs for all 22 Omega races.

Out of curiousity, why would you spend the money for that, but not incrementally more for the R and S sections and Annexes (the difference between that and the OMRB)?

Mike

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 09:17 am: Edit

I sort of feel the same way Moose but it might be a way to revitalize the tournament. I think we both want that.

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 09:23 am: Edit

We could put in a couple of Omega ships that are considered to be closest to finished products, as well as the playtest Andro, a G-Rack Fed maybe. 4ish new ships. We could remove a couple of the well established power cruisers (Shark, Klink, a couple of the various Roms maybe). Just thinking out loud. The point being that a separate additional playtest event in addition to the events we already have wont draw enough players due to time constraints.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 03:09 pm: Edit

You wouldn't need to throw in the entire Omega Master Rulebook in order to represent an initial sampling of Omega TCs; most of the "normal" factions (the ones which more or less operate like an Alpha ship under the hood) would only need three or four new rules per ship, less if you count those empires that share one or more types of phaser.

For example, the Mæsron needs three "new" weapon rules (for wide-angle phasers, tachyon guns, and tachyon missiles), the Probr another three (quantum phasers, HEAT torpedoes, and TAs), and so on. While a potential TC for the Iridani would need only two new rules (at a minimum; they use Mæsron wide-angle phasers, so would only need rules for focused energy beams and target illuminators, unless you wanted to bother with the captain's Gig shuttle as well) and the Federal Republic would only need new rules for light photons, short-range cannons, and/or shuttle bombs (since the bulk of their technology is Alpha-based).

If you leave the "out there" empires to one side, you can still get a decent list of Omega hulls that won't be too much of a hassle to learn how to operate.


Similarly, the Magellanic TCs wouldn't be that awkward to support; the rulebook for Module C5 can be ordered as a spare part, and most of the non-weapon systems that are unique to the LMC are shared across all 4 pre-existing TCs. So, once a player learns how things like the multi-layer shields and warp-tuned lasers work, there is less to do in terms of familiarising oneself with the rules needed to fly a Baduvai relative to an Eneen. (Of course, figuring out the best way to actually fly either ship once the rules have bedded down is another matter.)

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Gary, I totally agree. Pretty much each empire needs 1-4 special rules, where "rule" is defined as a big rule number. Some of those rules are considerably larger than others.

Also, totally ceded if you're going to add a 2-3 Omega cruisers, it would be smaller, but if you were going to add all of them it would be near the same, which was my point.

From an economics perspective, if you're going to do all the empires, my prior statement is true. If you were going to do a limited number you could by the O1 rulebook ($12) there's half the empires' rules. Not sure that duplicating the rules for a half-dozen empires would be much cheaper. The worst-case would be if there were 4 TCs, with those being the Vari, the Alunda and one each from O3 and O4 (the Vari and Alunda get the most rules help from O2 IIRC). Then you'd really need the OMRB for 4 additional TCs and I cede that probably wouldn't be worth it.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 04:49 pm: Edit

I don't seem to be making much headway in trying to mention the LMC empires, it seems...

But anyway.


I'm somewhat wary of the concept of sticking too closely to the OR-numbers, in terms of dividing up which Omega empires should make the grade and which should not.

As a point of comparison, over in the Omega conversion project for Federation Commander, I've tried to group the first batch of playtest empires based on local or regional rivalries; with the Mæsrons facing the Trobrin and Probr on their "western front", the Federal Republic at the crossroads of those three powers by Y162, and the Iridani able to drop in anywhere as part of their Quest (and to take on the Andromedans already in FC).

While it's not certain how and when that project will move forward, my idea regarding future expansion (were there to be any) would be to focus on smaller batches of 3-5 empires at a time, preferably grouped by appropriate themes or rivalries. So, to give a few examples, I'd put the Koligahr and Vari in the second wave (as part of the Mæsron "eastern front"), I'd like to see the Drex offered alongside the Ymatrians and Worb, while the Loriyill would be best kept alongside the Singers and Souldra.

Actually, I based that concept on what FC does when presenting Alpha empires already. You have the "western" and "eastern" borders of the Federation covered in the two core boxes; the Neo-Tholians were paired up with the Seltorians; the Lyrans, Hydrans, WYNs and LDR appeared together; while the Andromedans and ISC were introduced in the same module. Some of those groups overlap with the C-modules in SFB, but others are re-worked relative to how they had been handled in the older game.


To come back to this issue, I might suggest carving a similar set of sub-groups out of the potential candidate empires, rather then sticking too closely to their order of publication in SFB. I'm not saying to use the same groups as in FC, but rather to try and come up with some sort of groupings based on who was most likely to fight who.

That could be a way of promoting the regional rivalries in Omega, while presenting batches of cruisers that (ideally) should be designed to fight each other.

So, you could offer the Mæsrons along with the FRA, and any or all of the four surrounding Superpowers (Trobrin, Probr, Vari, Koligahr), keep the Alunda together with the Hivers, the Drex with the Worb, and so on and so forth. The likes of the Iridani could go anywhere, since their main rivals (not counting the Andromedans) are the Zosmans, who haven't been published yet.

Does that sound like it might be worth thinking about?

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 05:18 pm: Edit

Gary,
Just to add a voice, I love the LMC. I much prefer them to any of the Omega stuff, actually. I would be very comfortable seeing some in the tournament pool.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Good to hear! Or, well, read.

Is there a particular LMC TC you've had more experience flying (or fighting), or would they all be equally match-fit additions in your eyes?


Actually, speaking of historical groupings, the Jindarians could well go in alongside the LMC empires, since the Jindos are far more relevant historically in the Cloud than they are in Alpha. (The Magellanic holdouts survived the Andromedan occupation by using asteroid shipyards adopted from Jindarian templates.)

Alternatively, there is a Jindarian Freehold in Omega, but there hasn't been a lot published about what those Jindarians might operate. (In contrast, the LMC Jindos are confirmed to fly many of the same base hulls you see in Alpha.)

The Jindos are something of an odd duck in Alpha, where they aren't really anyone's friend or enemy; but they might be a better fit alongside the ships of the Magellanic Cloud.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 06:19 pm: Edit

Gary,

From a module standpoint, I totally agree with you. It's a very sensible way to do it. I'd imagine that if we were going to get Omega TCs, they'd be the Omega 1/2 races though principally because they've had TCs for a long time in comparison with the other races. If they were all playtest TCs, I could see that, but then again I'm not sure how many people would buy product to support a playtest TC.

I'm also a big fan of the LMC empires. I don't know that I've looked at their TCs off the top of my head. That said, the LMC has a bad rep for being unbalanced with several people I know (deserved or not).

Anyone know how the RPS stats stand for those TCs against the rest of the field?

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 06:42 pm: Edit

The Eeeeeeen (can never remember spelling on it) is my favorite, but I have liked most of what I have played of their TCs.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 08:08 pm: Edit

I think ther'es another 'n' in there somewhere ... between the 5th and 6th 'e' if I remember right. ;)

Ended up with a Baduvai CT as a captured ship in a campaign once. Even something as tiny as a police corvette was very pretty, I wouldn't mind playing a TC of theirs ...

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 11:50 am: Edit

I agree with Moose, an updated Module TR would be needed if we add Omego or LMC ships. From the sounds of it, they bring a lot of new rules with them.

By Mike Kenyon (Mikek) on Monday, February 18, 2013 - 03:43 pm: Edit

So, this past weekend was Ghengis Con here in Denver, and with it we didn't manage to pull out a SFB tournament. There was an SFB game scheduled and in prep for that, I went through the T-2012 book again to confirm my choices for the Organians tourney scenario (SG88).

In so doing, I happened to make note of an odd sidenote in the Frax tourney cruiser description that reads:

---

Quote:

It is apparently well balanced enough to have earned a sanction, but as a conjectural simulator ship cannot be used in santioned or Rated Ace events.

---

By Andrew J. Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - 07:01 pm: Edit

So it's disappointing to me that this stopped with all talk and no action.

By Brett W. Johnson (Bjohnson) on Wednesday, May 01, 2013 - 06:38 pm: Edit

IMHO we could still use a sanctioned (rated ace) tournament format that is intended to both speed/simplify play to attract new players, while keeping the depth to keep the sharks interested.

As someone who started playing (c. 1982) when the rule books were 5x8, impulse tables included 8/16/32, plotted movement, we have added a *lot* of depth to the game that while adding interest to the truly devoted, makes the game unapproachable to new players. Kind of a victim of it's own success...

Tourney has already cut a bunch of these, I would make the argument that several additional could be cut w/ minimal impact.

Some suggestions for a format that loses some "chrome" (rules w/ marginal or lesser utility) but keeps (most of) the deep decision making...

Eliminate all 2/3 movers (especially Andro breaks 2 fundamental rules - shields and movement)
1 ship per race (Romulans really don't need 3...)
Eliminate (for tourney) rules that don't add that much.
-1 HET per HET bonus limit
-no breakdown/tumbling
-no speed changes in mid turn
-no H&R raids/guards
-no loading/unloading drone racks
-no quick reverse

Of all of these, speed changes in mid-turn has the most utility, but is hard for new players both in terms of rules and how to use effectively.

I love the game, but as someone who has *tried* to get new people interested, the depth of the game has really grown overwhelming over the years.
-brett

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, May 01, 2013 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Mid-turn speed changes is a core part of the game and imo are completely necessary. Seeing that in the list makes me wonder what you are thinking, it's just crazy.

Eliminating the Orion, WYN and LDR tournament ships seems like a poor suggestion as well.

The Andromedan is currently not sanctioned, but it's being worked on and hopefully will return (imo).

I don't see your other suggestions as having much simplification occur if they were made effective. Honestly, I don't think the tournament needs any of these changes you suggest.

By Josh Driscol (Gfb) on Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 01:17 pm: Edit

How does the Romulans having three tournament cruisers complicate things for new players, they all use the same rules?

I can only think of a couple of changes that would have more impact than no speed changes in mid turn. This would be really major and something I for one wouldn't have an easy time adapting to.

How does removing the war cruisers from the tournament help simplify things, no fractional movement? If these new players cant handle fractions may I suggest the fine old game of Stratego, I don't remember it requiring fractions.

I think what you may need is your own in house cut down ruleset for teaching the game. It is a pretty overwhelming game system, but I think some of these changes are pretty major and would not be acceptable to the vast majority of the current players.

Finding new blood is a great goal, its the only way we can keep our beloved SFB alive. But I don't think the proposed changes would help speed play or attract new players. When teaching the new players you just want to work them up to the full game over time. Maybe use the cadet game which still uses the other impulse charts and is designed to teach new many of the basic concepts of the game.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 01:47 pm: Edit

I think that more the point here is that Bret is suggesting a way to have a simplified, alternative tournament format for, like, a "newbies" event or something, rather than general rules changes.

I can certainly see the advantage of trimming the rules set down for such an event.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Well, might as well make it FedCom instead if you are going to do that.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 02:18 pm: Edit

How about a cadet's tournament? Use the cadet rules?
But I can't say the old dogs (or me, even) would participate in such a thing. That would severely detract from it's appeal to new folks, since there would seem to be no participation in it.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 07:19 pm: Edit

There is a huge difference between Fed Com and SFB and wrt tournament play, I would not say Fed Com is substantially "less complicated." It is just very different.

I am with Bret and Peter on this, though I am not sure Bret shaved enough. I would have little interest in playing in such a tournament, but I support the concept.

For folks talking about the 2/3rds movers - it is not the fractions, it is the tactical implications. Same with mid-turn speed changes. The rules are not hard, but the tactical implications are complicated.

I can see the value of putting in a set of introductory rules - maybe Matthew has it right - use cadet rules (though I don't know because I don't know what they are).

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 07:34 pm: Edit

It doesn't really matter what the rules for a tournament are if you can't get people to compete in it. So how (where?) would you get the necessary 8+ people? Not on SFBOL, because anyone on there already knows the proper rules. Not at a con because it would require a substantial speculative commitment from people with other plans. Maybe at a games club, but then you might as well just teach and play the normal game.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 08:14 pm: Edit

The Cadet Game system. And particularly, the Rulebook

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Thursday, May 02, 2013 - 08:44 pm: Edit

I don't play with tournament ships or rules for pretty much the same reasons that Brett mentioned. I find the game a bit overly complicated at the Commander's Level and prefer to play at the Advanced Level. I would probably be more interested in a tournament that dropped the Andros and Speed Changes in Mid Turn. I really don't like rules that create exceptions to other rules (which these two do in spades). I'd drop the Orions too, as the idea of customizable weapons loadouts in a tournament seems rather unfair-especially for what amounts to a minor race/empire. And I understand that, in the past, there were some issues balancing the Orions.

As I said, I don't play tourney presently so I won't feel bad if this doesn't come to pass.