The problem with an X-"Fast" ship, is that it is not as much of a disadvantage as a normal Fast ship, because it can overload every heavy weapon every turn and be guarenteed to be within range-8 every turn, and move spd 30.

Look at what a DLX can do, 5x heavy weapons, 60 power, MC=1.25. It can walk, chew bubblegum, and vaporize it's opponents every turn.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 10:18 pm: Edit

X-ships already ARE fast ships, strategically speaking. The sort of thing being discussed here is probably something more in the ballpark of second generation advanced technology ships.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 11:11 pm: Edit

Yes, we're talking faster Fast.

BTW, in the F&E section of my post above there was to be no additional operational movement; it's still the same as other X-ships. The only benni is an ability to conduct raids that only X-ships can react to. As empires produce more and more X-ships, such a ship would be have an effect of encuraging players to keep some X-ships off the front and keep non-X-ships relevant longer. It might help counter any tendancy to start forming all X-fleets (or delay them anyway). I could be a strategical play to try and force an opponant to have to make more challenging choices.
This would be post ISC War BTW.

Scott, since there are ships that can do all that already then I don't see why that's an issue for this ship.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 11:40 pm: Edit

And then will 2x even be more faster faster fast?

I don't like this idea, 1X-ships are already at the peak of what you can do with old hull designs.

By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 12:12 am: Edit

That is my thinking, too. ALL X-ships are already "fast".

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 12:13 am: Edit

A. David Merritt,

But the CSX isn't "real" in the SFU, it is conjectural "unbuilt variant". If you read the ship description you will note that none were ever actually built because no CSs survived into the X-tech era. And even if it were built, I don't think it would be "super-fast" (F&E speed-8) because nothing in the rulebook indicates it would be strategically faster than any other X-ship. You can't conclusively tell whether a ship is strategically fast by examining its tactical warp power to MC ratio. Most CFs have 36 warp engine boxes with MC 1. Most DNLs have 45 warp engine boxes with MC 1.25, which is the same 36-1 ratio. But NCLs/CWs ususally have 24 warp engine boxes with a ²/₃ MC. This gives the same 36-1 ratio as the CFs and DNLs but the CWs are strategically no faster than standard warships. You want a more extreme case? The Neo-Tholian NCL has 26 warp engine boxes, giving it a 39-1 ratio, and it is not strategically fast. So while nothing in the rules indicates that the CSX is "super-fast", I don't see that as precluding another ship with the same warp to MC ratio, but that was specifically designed for extremely high strategic speeds, from being super-fast.

Scott Tenhoff,

I have to say I think you overestimate X-ship power capabilities. When you talk about a ship being able to do something "every turn", the most important number to look at is the "generated power", i.e. warp engines + impulse engines + aux reactors (whether APR or AWR). Batteries can give a big temporary boost but then generated power has to be diverted from other use to refill the batteries. So, for example, a Fed CX has 48 generated power and that is the number to consider when you want to see if it can really do something every turn. If it uses its batteries, it has a one-turn power availability of 63, but then those batteries are unavailable until generated power is diverted to refill them.

With that in mind, let's crunch some numbers for my proposed ship. Having two fewer AWR than the CX, it's total generated power is 46, but it has a bit more power available for weapons/ECM/shield reinforcement/etc. while at high speed due to the reduced MC. So...

Moving Speed 30 - 25 power

Fast loading 3 photons - 18 power
(Since your post assumed I can always get within 8 hexes, I am assuming fast overloads at 6 power each.)

Housekeeping - 4 power

Maximum available EW - 8 power

What? Wait a second! Where did all my power go? That's already 55 power and I haven't even armed phasers! Granted the double phaser capacitors mean I can fight for two turns without ever having to commit power to phasers - longer than two turns, in fact, if I don't fire all my phasers each turn. But eventually those phaser capacitors are empty and the phasers become another power drain. And what about some power for a tractor auction, or reinforcement for shields? I can't even get there with X-batteries.

Or let's look at it another way. A CX generates 48 points of power. If I want to move 30 and pay for housekeeping I have 14 points left for weapons/ECM/etc. "every turn". My proposed super-fast cruiser, with two fewer points of power but 5 fewer power required to move 30, has 17 points under the same assumptions, which is better than the CX but exactly the same as the already-existing Klingon DX. And it's worse than several already-existing Hydran X-cruisers. A Dragoon-X or Tartar-X both have, I believe, 21 points of power under these assumptions. In fact, I worry the most about a Hydran super-fast ship possibly "breaking" things due to such huge amount of power at speed. The super-fast Tholian based on the CCX could also risk that, though I think the risk is less if the Tholian is based on the CAX because of its more prosaic weapon suite. But in general - No, even an X-ship can't continually run around at speed-30 and have power for "everything, every turn". And that includes the proposed super-fast ships.

More comments tomorrow.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 01:49 am: Edit

If you look at the SFB scenario Base Busting, the non-scout backup for the RTN hunting ship is only a few turns away, even if they are not X-ships. If it's a situation where a few turns make a difference, a ship with a higher strategic speed (increased range, higher "high warp" cruising speed) is not going to make much of a difference IMO. The solution to the base busting problem is, ideally, to mount special sensors on something that can take on a satellite base and its defenders all by itself before backup arrives, e.g. the Kzinti SSCS Goliath or a GSX. Or just "fight with what you have" and take your chances using whatever scouts you've got.

The RTN-hunting justification for this class just doesn't stand up, IMO.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 08:55 am: Edit

Alan;
I agree that the CSX is unlikely to qualify as a faster "Fast" ship, but I intended to suggest it as a starting point. I will endeavor to be clearer in the future.

Terry;
I can see this working in that you have a general idea where a RTN node is, but may have several units looking for a given node. If your response force can cover a large number of Scout units, due to better response speed, you can cover a larger area with fewer ships.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 09:08 am: Edit

ADM, the scout is following an ion trail, not performing a search pattern of an area of space. I am under the impression that each scout ship had its own "bodyguards" fairly close (within a million kilometers or so?), not acting as backup for a skirmish line of searchers. When you're that close, I don't really see that slightly increased speed is going to help much, because you won't get anywhere close to top speed before having to slow down to tactical speed again. And when you do arrive at the fight, you need maximum firepower, which is something that fast ships sacrifice for their high top speeds.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 09:49 am: Edit

Me, I'm kinda leaning towards 'Fast Warp' and 'X-tech' don't mix. Kinda like DNs and Super-computers. The DNLX's weren't an exeption in that they were stripped down DNs instead of powered up ships, and their failure had to do with size.

In the end, CFX's feel a bit too munchkinish, in my personal opinion.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 11:18 am: Edit

I don't think X2 should be any faster than standard X. X2 should have a very different line of tools and capabilities to define its differences.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, January 25, 2012 - 12:47 am: Edit

Terry,

I don't think the "Base Busters" scenario proves your point at all. Look how close the scout is to the base at the start of the scenario. It is extremely unlikely that the scout discovered the base immediately before the scenario start. It should have discovered the base much, much farther out than the distance indicated by the scenario start positions. I suggest the following is a more likely description of the situation depicted in the scenario:

Some number of turns before scenario start, the scout and base detect each other at long range. (10 turns? 50 turns? 150? No way to know.) Detection may have been near-simultaneous or one may have detected the other first. In either case, as each detects the other, it calls for reinforcements. The scout doesn't want to get too close to the base until the reinforcements (what I have called the "secondary RTN Hunters above) get there. So it moves in cautiously, timing its approach to arive at about the same time the reinforcing ships do. But those ships have been enroute for many turns before the actual start of the scenario.

What about the apparently remarkable coincidence that the galactic and Andro reinforcements arrive at almost the same time? That's selection bias for purposes of having a playable, interesting scenario. Sometimes the galactic reinforcements arrive long before the Andros do, and crush the base. But that's not a fun scenario to play. So the scenario is based on an instance when the reinforcements really do arrive simultaneously, even if that may be a minority of all the individual instances of base busting. But that's exactly why, within the context of SFU history rather than an SFB scenario, there would be a use for super-fast X-ships, if the technology for such ships is possible.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 09:38 pm: Edit

How about an LDR MPSX? It would continue the LDRs practice of using their smaller hulls as EW support, i.e. the MPS and the PSC, do to the lack of better options, or as quick replacements for SCXs. Another suggestion, FFX for when they cannot afford the full DWX upgrade, not unlike the Lyran DDX?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, February 02, 2012 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Request:

Romulan KRCX

The current K7X is based on the D7/K7R and uses the the boom of the K7R (with a command rating of 9). This is the Romulans version of a CAX (examples include Z-BCX, H-DGX/RGX).

Request a command cruiser X-ship version using the KRC (with its current boom equiped with flag bridge) and increase the command rating to 10. This would be the Romulan version of a CCX (examples include the Z-CCX, H-LBX/LMX).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, February 02, 2012 - 06:48 pm: Edit

A couple of final comments about my suggestion for "super-fast" X-ships.

1. I explained in my 12:13 am reply on 24 January (in the portion of the reply addressed to Scott Tenhoff), why I disagreed with his assessment that the suggested ship had enough power to do "everything". The difference in high-speed discretionary power is only half the difference for a CA/CF. The "CFX" has the same high-speed power as the already existing DX and less than the Hydran DGX, or several other X-ships for that matter. But obviously many people still think it is over-powered and "munchkin". So let me suggest an alternate version. Start with a CX. Remove one photon, two phaser-1s, two AWR, one battery, a shuttle, and a few lab and hull. (All removals would be taken from the saucer.) DO NOT reduce the movement cost. The ship is now clearly and unequivocably inferior to the CX at the tactical level, having less power and weaponry and no countervailing tactical advantages. Its only advantage is that it is strategically faster (F&E speed-8). Other empires would make comparable alterations to their X-cruisers, to get their super-fast cruisers. I think these ships should exist for the reason I stated in my original 7:10 pm post on 23 January. I think there is a definite strategic use for these super-fast ships, even if they don't have quite the tactical combat capabilities of a full CX. They are still not wimp ships, having the approximate combat power of an X-tech light cruiser or a non-X BCH (depending on the specific empire and circumstances) and can get to fights no other major warship could reach in time. All this depends on the ships being technology possible, of course. Hence my second point...

2. Here I'm going from memory because I have not had the opportunity to look the details up - so I may be mistaken. But isn't the FedEx a fast ship already? I seem to remember that the Feds in fact experimented with an FDX-based escort specifically because it could keep up with their fast carriers on raids, when no other escort could. And there is an FXX that has the same mission as the basic FDX but is described as being faster - faster than speed-7 in other words. If I am remembering correctly, that would seem to support the possibility of speed-8 ships, though if SVC and SPP dislike the idea they can always inject some handwavium that these speeds were, due to technology limitations, achievable only by very small vessels. But until SVC/SPP make that call, I will continue to believe that super-fast X-ships should exist as "secondary" RTN hunters.

And now for something completely different...

Chuck,

I certainly have no objection to a Romulan KRCX but I believe that it would have to be conjectural/unbuilt variant. I believe (though I'm not entirely sure) that the published history establishes that no KRCs survived into the X-tech era. But as a conjectural ship I think it's fine.

Just my .02 quatloos worth...

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, February 02, 2012 - 08:22 pm: Edit

It would also depend on how many K7Xs survived the Civil War as one might be upgraded to a K(R)CX...

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 06:26 pm: Edit

KRCXs could also converted from remaining K7R/K7Xs or purchased/gifted D7/D7Ls so they don't nessassarily have to come from KRCs.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 09:30 pm: Edit

It would need spare parts, being a Klingon ship converted to Romulan technology. A good reason for it being never actually done, but could have been.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 06:20 pm: Edit

It has been a few months since we last discussed ideas for X1B.

I suggested a "new menace" which could be plural. We have discussed the fact the neutral zones are now bordered by devastated regions. See page 44 R11. The Klingons, Romulans, and Kzinti created interior borders about 1000 parsecs from the NZ. So there is a zone of 2500 parsecs (in some areas) under various levels of control from none to some.

When the Andromedans first arrived there little more than a menace until they launched their full scale invasion around Y190. So a "new menace" could be the initial scouts for a later full scale invasion. The Xorkelians are the only empire that I know of that will invade the Alpha octant.

Xork ships are more or less a known entity. An advance scouting force would need to be able hide or some what blend in so they could exploit the 2500 parsecs zone. These crews would be some elite group organized some what like larger prime teams . One idea is they are race related to the Xorkelians but are shape-shifters. Their ships would be X-technology ships with some type of cloaking capability.

They arrive post-GW. They mission is to: gather intelligence on the major empires military and economic capabilities; trade routes; sources of raw materials; stage raids which appear to be from a neighboring empire or by pirates/mercenaries; create confusion and fear.

The second menace: (SM12) Starswarms Module J), (SM13) Banshees Module K, and the Juggernaut. A damaged Juggernaut forms an unholy alliance/symbiotic relationship with a starswarm. They capture a banshee and create a cybernetic swarm-bot-banshee (bansheenaut). The shriek missiles can carry several of these bansheenauts and launch them like a fighters.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 06:40 pm: Edit

This new, phantom menace is probably the Xorkelians according to the canon. Though it could be interesting to see a Juggernaught invasion (and it could probably be staged, by some enterprising campaign moderator)

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 10:25 am: Edit

Now that there are more Juggernaught ships from frigates to battleships a Juggernaught fleet is easier to fill out. See CL1, CL33, CL35 and CL41.

How would you handle repair and new ship builds?

Would the Juggernaughts destroy everything? Would they still fight to the death or would you allow them to retreat?

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 11:07 am: Edit

In broad strokes, taken off the top of my head, I'd say the Juggernaught invasion could be handled like the andro invasion: just hand them a certain number of certain ships every build cycle.

As for how they fight? That would depend on how they do their invasion. The andro invasion began by infiltrating everyone's space, then attack everyone one at the same time. Would the Juggies instead do a methodical capture of territory; Start at one end and roll down to towards the other?

It should be done in a different way than the Andro's style of invasion. 1) Because the andros failed at it, and 2) Because it would lose player-excitement if it was done the same way every time. What that method is, I don't know off the top of my head.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 12:56 pm: Edit

The Juggernaut/bansheenaut idea I posted was as a new monster not an invasion. The Juggernauts show up one each year. Banshees destroy bases and ships. Starswarms destroy planets. I intended this (Juggernaut/bansheenaut) as something an small x-squadron would be needed to handle.

A full scale invasion would fit better in R13-More ships that never were rather than X1B since both the new ships and such an invasion are conjectural

The alpha octant (sector) threat I suggested was the Xorkelian advanced scouting force.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 10:04 am: Edit

Plus IIRC, the Juggies never actually had means to mine, occupy plants, etc.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 10:31 pm: Edit

Mike,

I think you are correct. The swarmbots and bansheenauts would do the resource extraction. These could also supplement the repairs abilities of the Juggernaut.