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Quote:

Was it your original intent as the designer to make the Triangulum ships not be a match for the Alpha Sector ships? If you look at an Omega CA, you can see that it would not be able to stand up to an Alpha Sector CA. Perhaps you wanted Triangulum to be the same? If Triangulum is supposed to be equivalent to the Alpha Sector, then some changes are definitely needed for the Valorean CA.

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By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Hi Gary,

In F&E term the pre-Y120 ships, except the Helgardian, are equal to the Four-Power War era ships and can only move 4 hexes in operational speed and I think they can do strategic movement for a limited range?

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 03:10 pm: Edit

As for the range of capability between the triangulum ships and the Alpha octant equivalent, well my personal way of seeing this is to have most empires Heavy Cruiser pretty balanced with the one from most Alphan. So you could use them to test the ships and so people could enjoy a good old duel. But the other classes of ships are not made equal, most DN in the Triangulum galaxy aren't of equal power, same for CL or DD.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 08:41 pm: Edit

François:

I'm not sure if that would line up technologically.

The ships of the Four Powers War still had the same modern warp drives seen in the General War (not counting "fast" ships) at least prior to the onset of first-generation advanced technology in the Y180s. However, the ability to actually supply those ships was only two-thirds the distance it would become by the outbreak of the General War.

There is an in-progress revision of the 4PW scenario for F&E over in this thread, and one rule in particular addresses this issue:

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Quote:

(607.541) Range: Supply from a valid supply points is limited to four hexes during this period; ships may still move their full movement allowances (usually six hexes for ships).

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By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 07:40 am: Edit

Hi Gary,

I admit I haven't really thought about that at this time, I'm trying to get some playtest done for SFB to actually get a product officially published.

At the moment I have found one group to playtest the material (Norman Dizon group) and we could really use some help in that department.

As for the strategic and F&E implication, this is a really moot point if we never get the project up and running.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Hi Gary. Thanks for the clarification on Omega CAs vs Alpha CAs. Yes, I was aware that Omega CAs are "middle year" ships and that Omega Speed 30 CAs are yet to be published.
Perhaps my question to Francois should have been: "Are the Triangulum CAs supposed to be the equivalent of Alpha CAs or the Omega Middle Years CAs?" A small but important detail. I appreciate you pointing that out for me.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Hi Francois. Here is a summary of the second Valorean vs Fed duel. This battle will be included in my official playtest report, along with a couple of other battles. Please let me know what you think about the Notes/Suggestions/Conclusions section.

This battle was very close. We felt that the Valorean CA had a chance to win, if it could maintain its distance and keep hitting from middle range. But, in our opinion, the Valorean CA still needs some changes/improvements to give it an equal fighting chance with the Fed CA. Please see the Notes/Suggestions/Conclusions section at the bottom.

VALOREAN CA vs FEDERATION CA BATTLE #2:
(both ships have all refits)

TURN 1 – Both ships are moving fast. Valorean fires 3 MPPs w/3 Mags at Range 20. 2 MPPs hit. The damage is absorbed by the Fed’s general reinforcement. The Fed fires 4 PH-1s at Range 20, scores 1 hit, which is absorbed by the Valorean’s general reinforcement.

TURN 2 – Valorean fires 1 TBA w/Mag (#1) from Range 13. It hits. The damage is absorbed by general reinforcement, but the Fed’s Shield #1 is now magnified.
** Note that at this point, 4 points that were used to charge Mag #2 and Mag #3 have been wasted for the turn, because the Fed’s Shield #1 has already been magnified by TBA w/Mag #1**

Valorean also fires 2 MPPs w/2 Mags from Range 13. 3 points of damage are scored to the Fed’s Shield #1.

Fed fires 4 standard photons at Range 12. They all miss.

Fed also fires 4 PH-1s at Range 12. They score 4 points of damage to the Valorean’s Shield #1.

Valorean fires 1 TBA at Range 11 and hits. Since it has been 2 impulses since the first TBA w/Mag hit, this second TBA takes advantage of the magnification effect. The Fed takes 8 damage to Shield #1 and minor damage to all other shields.
Fed shoots 2 PH-1s out of its RH, scoring 4 more damage points on the Valorean’s Shield #1.

Valorean shoots a third TBA at Range 10 and hits. Since it has been 4 impulses since the first TBA w/Mag hit, this third TBA takes advantage of the magnification effect. The Fed takes 9 damage to Shield #1 (which is now facing away from the Valorean but it still gets hit) and minor damage to all other shields.

At this point in the Duel, the Fed CA has lost 20 points to its Shield #1 and the Valorean CA has lost 8 points to its Shield #1.

TURN 3 – Valorean fires 1 MPP (w/no Mag) from Range 20 and hits. The damage is absorbed by the Fed’s general reinforcement.

The Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 20. One hits and the damage is absorbed by the Valorean’s general reinforcement.

The Valorean fires 3 MPPs w/3 Mags from Range 14. 6 points of damage are scored to the Fed’s #1 Shield.

The Fed fires 4 PH-1s at Range 14. 2 points of damage are scored on the Valorean’s Shield #1.
At this point in the Duel, the Fed CA has 4 boxes left on its Shield #1 and the Valorean CA has 10 boxes left on its Shield #1.

TURN 4 – Valorean fires 2 MPPs w/2 Mags from Range 12. One hits and the damage is absorbed by the Fed’s general reinforcement.

The Fed fires 4 PH-1s from Range 12. One point of damage is scored to the Valorean’s #4 Shield.
At this point in the Duel, the Valorean is running away from the Fed (meaning its #4 shield is facing the Fed) and the Fed is moving as fast it can to chase him.

TURN 5 – Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 9. The Valorean’s Shield #6 takes 1 point of damage.
Both the Fed CA and the Valorean CA are circling to do a battle pass. They will pass at an angle to each other.

Valorean fires 2 TBAs (w/No Mags) at Range 8. They both hit. The Fed takes 5 points of damage to Shield #6 and minor damage to all other shields.

The Valorean fires 6 MPPs w/3 Mags at Range 8. The Fed takes 16 points of damage to its #6 Shield. The #6 Shield on the Fed CA is almost completely gone.

The Fed fires 4 overloaded photons at Range 8 and 2 successfully hit. The Fed also fires 4 PH-1s at Range 8, resulting in 2 hits. The Valorean takes 38 damage total to Shield #6. Shield #6 collapses and the Valorean takes 23 internals.

At this point in the Duel, the Valorean CA has lost all of its FH Neutronium Armor, one TBA, and all of its Forward Hull.

The Fed CA, at this point in the Duel, has two points left on Shield #1 and Shield #6. Minor damage has been done to all other shields.

TURN 6 – Both the Fed CA and the Valorean CA are moving fast and circling around.

The Valorean CA fires 1 TBA w/No Mag from Range 11. It hits. The Fed’s Shield #6 is destroyed by the hit, but the Fed CA suffers no internals.
Valorean fires 3 MRRs w/3 Mags at Range 11. They all hit. 8 points of damage are scored to the Fed’s Shield #3.

Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 11. They score 2 points of damage to the Valorean’s Shield #2.

TURN 7 – Both the Fed CA and the Valorean CA are doing a battle pass at an angle to each other.
Valorean fires 1 TBA w/Mag at Range 9. This results in the Fed completely losing Shields #1, #6, and #3. The Fed takes 8 Internals. The Fed loses 2 PH-1s and one Bridge (!). The Fed’s Shield #2 is Magnified at this point.

Valorean fires 1 TBA w/No Mag (Note that the Valorean has wasted 2 points of energy at this point arming the second Mag. The second Mag is not needed because the first TBA already Magnified Shield #2) from Range 8. The Valorean also fires 6 MPPs with 2 Mags at Range 8. The Valorean destroys the Fed’s Shield #2 and scores 3 Internals on the Fed CA.

Fed CA returns fire with 2 PH-1s and 4 overloaded photons at Range 8. All 4 overloaded photons hit. The Valorean’s Shield #2 is blown away and the Valorean suffers 55 Internals. Note that the Valorean no longer has its FH Neutronium Armor when it takes the 55 Internals.

TURN 8 AND ON – The Valorean CA is severely crippled. The Fed CA allows the Valorean CA to disengage and return to Triangulum.

Captain Androsaemifolium of the Valorean CA Prunus states: “We will return!”

NOTES/SUGGESTIONS/CONCLUSIONS

1) The power curve on the Valorean CA is appropriate. It needs the extra power to keep distance.

2) The Valorean CA Turn Mode is appropriate. It needs the better turn mode while dancing with the enemy.

3) We believe the Valorean CA should have better firing arcs for its TBAs. Currently, you basically have a RS, a FA, and a LS. It difficult to get all three TBAs to bear on the enemy without letting him close on you. If all three TBAs were FA, this would help greatly. You can also give the two side TBAs a L arc and R arc, in addition to the FA arc.

4) We feel the Magnifier needs revision. We believe it should fire as a separate weapon. This will prevent wasted energy when firing the TBAs. We also suggest that the target’s shield be Magnified for 16 impulses, instead of only 8. Also, multiple Magnifier hits should be allowed to extend the Magnification time (but not the effect). For example (with Mags lasting 8 impulses), a shield is Magnified on Impulse 5. A second Magnifier hits on Impulse 9. The Magnification effect should now last until Impulse 17. That way, if two Mags are powered and the first Mag successfully hit, there is a reason to use the second powered Mag (to extend the Magnification time). This will prevent wasted energy for second and third Mags that have been powered during Energy Allocation. Also, we suggest that it cost one point to use a Mag with a MPP (or 2 LPPs). Then if a Mag is powered and Magnification is already in effect, the power can be used for MPPs instead (so that the power is not wasted). It is a little odd that this benefit is free to use currently. The Valorean CA has more than enough power to do this.

5) If the Magnifier is adjusted per the suggestions in #4, then the two impulse rule may need to be modified. The two impulse rule fits great within an 8 impulse span. But if the Magnification time gets extended to 16 impulses, perhaps there should be 4 impulses between TBA shots? What do you think? Or keep it at 2 impulses and just give the Valorean captain more time to score hits by extending the Magnification time to 16 impulses?

6) We suggest that the Valorean needs more shields. Bringing Shield #1 to 24 points and all other shields to 20 points sounds about right.

7) In order to be successful at dancing with the enemy, the MPPs need better firing arcs. Perhaps LS and RS for some? Also, the ship definitely needs some RA weapons. It is very vulnerable when being chased from behind.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Hi Norman,

First of all the Triangulum CA with the Y154 refit should be equal to the Alphan CA (or close enough).

1) good

2) good

3) Okay we will do that (FA+L, FA and FA+R)

4) I sent a revised rule GN104. (arming 1 point instead of 2, a -1 to the die roll when fired with a Magnifier and TBA can be fired once per impulse instead of 2 impulses delay)

5) see above

6) We will do something like that.

7) Okay we will do something about this, let me think about it.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Hi Francois. Thanks for the revised Valorean SSD. We will continue playtesting with the changes.

The Khadij look very cool. I reviewed your revised timeline and your new map. It looks like they operate out of the Khartax Free Zone. They could have battles with the Helgardians, Valoreans, Wega'an, Azary, Mallaran, and Imperium.
I thought they were like the Orion Pirates, but then I noticed the detail that they sold their services to the highest bidder. So they are not pirates, but rather mercenaries.
Did this have a big affect on the multiple Khartax Wars in that area? Was their fleet about as big as the Orions? Or bigger?

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 02:16 pm: Edit

I haven't made a fleet description but I would think they had between a third or a quarter of the ships of the Gorn.

They probably fought in about 2/3 of the war around the KFZ. They are very active.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 02:27 am: Edit

Hi Francois. Here is a summary of the third playtest Duel between the Valorean CA and the Federation CA. Please note that this third Duel was completed before it was decided to revise the Valorean CA SSD and Rules. This Duel, along with the first two playtest Duels, will be included in my official playtest report.

The Valorean controlled the distance and struck from range 9-16. After many circles and battle passes, the Valorean ended up taking more overall damage than the Federation CA. The Federation CA primarily used proximity photons against the fast-moving Valorean.

The results of this third Duel confirms the Notes/Suggestions/Conclusions from the first and second playtest Duels. The Valorean CA has lost 3 Duels out of 3 Duels with the Federation CA.

VALOREAN CA vs FEDERATION CA DUEL #3:
(both ships have all refits)

TURN 1 – The Valorean CA is moving fast and the Federation CA is moving slow

The Valorean fires 3 MPPs with/Mags from Range 23. They all miss.

The Fed fires 4 PH-1s from Range 23. 3 PH-1s hit and do 3 points of damage to the Valorean’s #1 Shield.

The Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 23. They both miss.

TURN 2 –

The Valorean fires 1 TBA w/Mag from Range 16. It hits and Shield #2 is Magnified.

** Note that the Valorean has wasted 4 points powering Magnifiers #2 and #3 at this point. The first TBA w/Mag (#1) already hit and magnified Shield #2, so there is no need to use Magnifiers #2 and #3 with the other two TBAs. **

Valorean fires 1 TBA w/No Mag from Range 15. It hits.

Valorean fires 1 TBA w/No Mag from Range 12. It hits.

Fed fires 4 proximity photons from Range 12. They all hit. The Valorean’s Shield #1 takes 16 points of damage and has 1 box remaining.

Fed fires 4 PH-1s from Range 12. The Valorean’s Shield #1 collapses and the Valorean takes 2 Internals.

The Valorean fires 6 MPPs w/2 Mags from Range 10. The Fed takes 7 points of damage to Shield #1.

The Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 10. The Valorean takes 3 points of damage to Shield #2.
Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 11. They both miss.

TURN 3 – Fed moving slow and Valorean moving fast.

Fed fires a Drone.

Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 14. The Valorean takes 1 point of damage to Shield #4.

Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 13. The Valorean takes 3 points of damage to Shield #5.

Fed fires 4 PH-1s from Range 9. One Phaser hits. 1 point of damage is scored on the Valorean’s Shield #6.

The Valorean fires 3 MPPs w/Mags from Range 9. All 3 MPPs hit. The Fed takes 11 points of damage to Shield #1.

The Valorean fires 3 MPPs w/No Mags from Range 9. They all miss.

At this point, the Federation CA has 21 points remaining on Shield #1 and all other shields have taken minor damage.

The Valorean has no Shield #1.

TURN 4 –

Fed launches another Drone.

Valorean fires 1 TBA w/Mag from Range 10. It misses.

Fed fires 4 Proximity Photons from Range 10. 2 of them hit and they do 8 points of damage to the Valorean’s Shield #5.

Fed fires 4 PH-1s from Range 10. 1 hits and scores 3 points of damage to the Valorean’s Shield #5.

Valorean fires 1 TBA w/Mag from Range 9. It hits and the Federation’s Shield #1 is Magnified.

** Note that at this point, the Valorean has wasted 2 points of energy powering Mag #3, which has no use since the TBA w/Mag #2 has already hit. **

Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 8. The Valorean takes 5 points of damage to its Shield #6.

The Valorean fires 1 TBA w/No Mag from Range 7. It misses.

The Valorean fires 1 MPP w/Mag from Range 7. Fed takes 1 point of damage to Shield #6.

Valorean fires 5 MPPs w/No Mags from Range 7. 4 of them hit. The Fed takes 9 points of damage to Shield #6.

Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 10. 1 Phaser hits and does 3 points of damage to the Valorean’s Shield #4.

At this point, the Fed has less than half of Shield #6 remaining. The Fed also has 19 boxes left on Shield #1.

The Valorean has no Shield #1 and Shield #5 has two boxes left.

TURN 5 – Valorean moving fast and the Fed is moving slow.

Fed fires 6 PH-1s from Range 9. The Valorean takes 8 points of damage to Shield #5. Shield #5 collapses and the Valorean takes 6 Internals.

Fed fires another Drone

Valorean fires 3 MPPs w/Mags from Range 9. They all hit. The Fed takes 4 points of damage to Shield #1.

Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 7. The Valorean takes 2 more Internals.

At this point, the Valorean has no Shield #1 or Shield #5. It has 2 boxes of RH Neutronium Armor left and 9 boxes of FH Neutronium left.

The Fed has 9 boxes left on Shield #6 and 15 boxes on Shield #1. The Fed has taken no Internals.

TURN 6 –

Fed fires another Drone.

Fed fires 2 PH-1s from Range 11. 1 Phaser hits and does 3 points of damage to the Valorean’s Shield #6.

Fed fires 4 PH-1s from Range 7. The Valorean takes 6 points of damage to Shield #6.
Valorean fires 1 TBA w/Mag from Range 7. It misses.

Valorean fires 6 MPPs w/No Mags from Range 7. 5 MPPs hit and the Fed takes 5 points of damage to Shield #6.

Valorean fires 1 TBA w/Mag from Range 7. It hits and the Federation’s Shield #6 is Magnified.

** Note that at this point, the Valorean has wasted 2 points of energy powering Mag #3, which has no use since the TBA w/Mag #2 has already hit. **

Fed fires 4 Proximity Photons from Range 10. 3 of the photons hit. The Valorean takes 12 points of damage to Shield #6. The Valorean’s Shield #6 is now completely destroyed.

At this point, the Valorean has no Shield #1, no Shield #6, no Shield #5, and no Shield #4. It has 2 boxes of RH Neutronium Armor left. It has 9 boxes of FH Neutronium Armor left. It is also missing some Forward Hull and some Aft Hull.

The Federation has two boxes left on its Shield #6. It has 13 boxes left on Shield #1. All other shields have taken minor damage. The Federation CA has suffered no Internals.

TURN 7 AND ON – The Valorean finds itself facing 4 drones that are closing in. It is missing 4 shields and it has not succeeded in bringing any of the Federation’s shields down.

The Valorean CA disengages and the Federation CA is victorious.

Captain Puniceus of the Valorean CA Oolentangiensis exclaims: “These humans are tough!”

NOTES/SUGGESTIONS/CONCLUSIONS

The results of this Duel support the same suggestions and comments as the first two playtest Duels. The Valorean CA should have more shields. The TBAs and MPPs should have better firing arcs to help it dance effectively with an enemy. The Magnifier Rules should be updated to prevent any power from being wasted. The Tri-Beam Amplifiers should be modified so they can fire quicker within an 8 impulse span. The Neutronium Armor works fine and the power curve on the Valorean CA is adequate.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 08:51 am: Edit

Thanks for the report Norman.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Saturday, October 26, 2013 - 02:07 pm: Edit

Hi Francois. The Demony look awesome! They are as unique and original as the Souldra and Andromedans. The EFADs are going to be extremely fun to playtest!
Is it correct that the Trans-Dimensional Shield regenerates every turn? Also, why is the cost based on movement?

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Saturday, October 26, 2013 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Hi Norman,

Yes the TDS regenerates each turn, but are relatively small (only 12 boxes on the CA). Well the cost is based on the size of the ships but basing it on the movement cost instead of the size class makes it different for example for a DD or a FF.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Saturday, October 26, 2013 - 02:46 pm: Edit

BTW thanks Gary and Norman for pushing me to return to the Triangulum project, I'm having a lot of fun designing these empire again. I just finish writing my first rules (for the Demony Alliance) in many years.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, October 26, 2013 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Thank you Gary and Norman.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, October 26, 2013 - 09:04 pm: Edit

I'm not sure I've done anything to warrant such thanks, unlike Norman (who has been able to actually do some solid playtesting).

At least not until I get a chance to convert some of the Triangulum material over to Federation Commander. Ahem.

(But then, I suppose the FC Omega project would need to move forward before I should start getting any ideas about other avenues, such as the LMC or M33...)

I would be very interested to see how well any "final" rules for Triangulum's weapons and support systems might port over to FC, mind you.


As for the Demony Alliance, I wonder how their ground forces might fare against the various toys which may be made available to the Human Republic in Star Fleet Marines terms.

While many of the current SFM units are fairly generic (to the point that an article in CL47 presenting the Marines of the Lesser Magellanic Cloud was viable based on pre-existing unit/counter types deployed in force organizations outlined in Module C5), I could well imagine things like PBAs and Demonic monster-creatures as warranting their own sets of rules in that scale; which might help make M33 a uniquely distinct gaming environment for the new ground combat game system.

Actually, if a published module were thorough enough to include the relevant "Module M" company/battalion organizations for each featured empire, that would allow a similar "Marines of the Triangulum Galaxy" conversion article to be done, at least for those empires which wouldn't need any "new" rules in SFM scale.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 04:20 am: Edit

I think that anyone who enjoys the Triangulum background and appreciates the innovative ship designs deserves to be thanked. Your support has helped to keep Triangulum alive. Hopefully we can all work together to get the Triangulum project moving forward.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 04:38 am: Edit

Hi Francois. Here is a summary of the first Helgardian vs Klingon Duel. This battle will be included in my official playtest report, along with a couple of other battles. The Helgardian Protector CA was very fun to play.

This Duel was a vicious Knife Fight. Both the Helgardian and the Klingon refused to back down. They pursued each other relentlessly, hoping to be the first one to completely destroy the other. The Klingon hoped to overwhelm the Helgardian with its Drones, but they were too slow. The Helgardian hoped to carve up the Klingon with its rapid-firing Graviton Beams, but the Klingon was too tough. In the end, they both crippled each other and limped away from the battlefield.

Please see the Notes/Suggestions/Conclusions section at the bottom.

HELGARDIAN PROTECTOR CA vs KLINGON D7 BATTLECRUISER DUEL #1:
(both ships have all refits)

TURN 1

Both the Helgardian Protector CA and the Klingon D7 are moving at medium speed.

The Helgardian fires 4 overloaded MGBs from Range 44. They all miss.

The Klingon fires 4 disruptors at Range 21. 3 Disruptors hit. Two Rotating Shields absorb damage and 3 damage points are scored on the #1 Shield of the Helgardian.

The Klingon fires 3 PH-1s at Range 21. Two Rotating Shields absorb damage and 1 damage point is scored on the Helgardian’s #1 Shield.

TURN 2

Both the Helgardian Protector CA and the Klingon D7 are moving at medium speed, but slower than in Turn 1.

Klingon launches Scatterpack.

Scatterpack launches 6 Drones at Helgardian.

The Helgardian fires 4 standard MGBs at Range 4. 8 points of damage are scored on the Klingon’s #1 Shield.

The Helgardian fires 3 standard LGBs at Range 4. 2 LGBs hit and do 2 points of damage to the #1 Shield of the Klingon.

The Helgardian fires 3 overloaded Particle Shotguns at Range 4. 6 hits are scored, resulting in 24 points of damage to the Klingon’s #1 Shield. The Klingon’s #1 Shield collapses and the Klingon D7 takes 4 Internals.

The Klingon fires 4 overloaded Disruptors at Range 4. 3 Disruptors hit. 12 points of damage are distributed among Rotating Shields #1 and #2. 12 points of damage are scored on the Helgardian’s #1 Shield.

The Klingon fires 3 PH-1s and 2 PH-2s at Range 4. 7 points of damage are scored on the Helgardian’s #1 Shield. The #1 Shield buckles and the Helgardian takes 3 Internals.

The Klingon fires 2 PH-2s at Range 4. 4 points of damage are scored on the Helgardian’s #5 Shield. Neither of the two Rotating Shields are protecting this arc.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs at Range 4.
The Klingon takes 6 points of damage to its #5 Shield.

At this point in the Duel, both the Helgardian Protector and the Klingon D7 have lost their #1 Shield.

After the Battle Pass at Range 4, both ships turn away from each other.

TURN 3

The Helgardian Protector is moving slow and turning to face the Klingon D7.

The Klingon D7 is moving slow and turning to face the Helgardian Protector.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs at Range 5.
The Klingon’s Shield Reinforcement absorbs some damage. 1 point of damage is scored on the Klingon’s #5 Shield.

The Klingon fires 2 PH-2s at Range 5. 2 points of damage are distributed among Rotating Shields #1 and #2. 2 points of damage are scored on the Helgardian’s #5 Shield.

The Klingon fires 3 PH-1s and 2 PH-2s from Range 6. The Helgardian takes 6 points of damage to its #4 Shield. The Rotating Shields cannot be turned from their arc yet.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs from Range 5. 5 points of damage are scored on the Klingon’s #6 Shield.

The Klingon fires 4 standard Disruptors at Range 4. They all hit. The Helgardian takes 16 points of damage to its #4 Shield. The #4 Shield collapses and the Helgardian takes 4 Internals. The Rotating Shields are protecting other arcs.

The Helgardian loses 1 LGB.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs and 1 standard LGB at Range 4. The Klingon suffers Internals and loses 2 Warp Engines and one Bridge.

The Klingon fires 2 PH-2s at Range 4. 1 point of damage is scored on a Rotating Shield and 1 point of damage is scored on the Helgardian’s #3 Shield.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs from Range 4. The Klingon takes 7 points of damage to its #2 Shield.

The Helgardian fires 1 standard LGB at Range 4. The Klingon takes 1 point of damage to its #3 Shield.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs at Range 4.
The Klingon suffers 6 points of damage to its #3 Shield.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs and 1 standard LGB at Range 5. 6 points of damage are scored on the Klingon’s #2 Shield.

At the end of the turn, the Klingon restores 2 boxes of #1 Shield due to Damage Control.

At this point in the Duel, the Klingon has 2 boxes on its #1 Shield, 9 boxes on its #2 Shield, and minor damage to Shields #3, #5, and #6. The Klingon has lost 2 Warp Engines and one box of Bridge.

The Helgardian has no #1 Shield and no #4 Shield. It has suffered minor damage to its #5 Shield. The Helgardian has lost 1 LGB and 1 Warp Engine.

TURN 4

Both ships are extremely close at Range 2. The turn opens up with both of them firing at close range.

The Klingon fires 2 drones.

The Helgardian fires 3 overloaded Particle Shotguns at Range 2. The Klingon takes 9 Hits, which equals 36 damage points. After subtracting shield reinforcement, the Klingon takes 33 points of damage to its #2 Shield.

The Helgardian fires 4 standard MGBs and 1 standard LGB at Range 2. The Klingon takes 11 more points of damage.

The Klingon takes 35 Internals.

The Klingon fires 4 overloaded Disruptors at Range 2. All 4 hit. 16 points of damage are distributed among Rotating Shield #1 and #2. 16 points of damage are scored on the Helgardian’s #2 Shield.

The Klingon fires 4 PH-2s and 3 PH-1s at Range 2. 4 points of damage are taken by the two Rotating Shields, destroying them both. The Helgardian takes 24 points of damage to its #2 Shield. The #2 Shield caves in and the Helgardian takes 22 Internals.

At this point, the Helgardian Protector has lost 2 MGBs, 1 Particle Shotgun, 2 LGBs, 1 Rotating Shield, 3 Warp Engines, 2 Impulse, 4 Batteries, and one box of Bridge.

The Klingon D7 has lost 3 PH-2s, 2 Drones, 10 Warp Engines, 4 Impulse, 3 Batteries, 1 Disruptor, and one box of Bridge.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs at 2 incoming Drones at Range 1. Both Drones are destroyed.

The Helgardian fires 1 standard LGB at Range 4. The Klingon takes 1 point of damage to its #4 Shield.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs at Range 5. The Klingon takes 5 points of damage to its #4 Shield.

The Klingon shoots 2 PH-2s at Range 5. They score 3 Internals on the Helgardian.

The Helgardian loses 1 Warp Engine and 1 Rotating Shield.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs at Range 5. The Klingon takes 4 points of damage to its #6 Shield.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs at Range 5. The Klingon takes 3 points of damage to its #6 Shield.

TURN 5

Both the Helgardian and the Klingon are moving slow. Both ships continue firing, refusing to break off.

The Klingon fires 3 overloaded Disruptors at Range 4. After subtracting reinforcement, the Helgardian takes 1 damage point to its #3 Shield.

The Klingon fires 3 PH-1s and 1 PH-2 from Range 4. The Helgardian takes 12 points of damage to its #3 Shield.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs at Range 4. The Klingon takes 2 points of damage to its #1 Shield.

The Helgardian fires 2 standard MGBs at Range 3. The Klingon takes 5 points of damage to its #6 Shield.

The Klingon fires 2 PH-2s at Range 3. The Helgardian suffers 7 more Internals.

The Helgardian loses 2 Warp Engines, 2 MGBs, and one box of Bridge.

TURN 6

Both ships are facing each other at an angle. They are one hex away from each other. They both hope to destroy the other ship and survive the battle in crippled condition.

The Helgardian fires 2 overloaded Particle Shotguns at Range 1. They score 10 hits which equals 40 points of damage. The Klingon’s #6 Shield collapses and the Klingon takes 35 Internals.

The Helgardian fires 1 standard LGB at Range 1. This adds 2 more Internals, so the Klingon takes 37 Internals total.

The Klingon fires 3 overloaded Disruptors at Range 1. They all hit. The Helgardian takes 30 points of damage to its #6 Shield. The #6 Shield buckles and the Helgardian takes 5 Internals.

The Klingon fires 3 PH-1s and 3 PH-2s at Range 1.
This results in 32 more Internals. The Helgardian takes 37 total Internals.

At this point, both ships are crippled.

The Klingon has 2 boxes of Warp Engine left. It has no APR, Impulse, or Batteries. The Klingon has no Phasers or Drones left. The only weapons remaining are two Disruptors. The Klingon has no Shield #1, #2, or #6. The Klingon has no Bridge or AUX left, but it still has one EMER.

The Helgardian has 2 boxes of Warp Engine left. It has no APR, Impulse or Batteries. The only weapons remaining on the Helgardian are 2 RH MGBs. The Helgardian has lost all of its Particle Shotguns and both Rotating Shields. The Helgardian has no #1 Shield, #2 Shield, #4 Shield or #6 Shield. It has 4 boxes remaining on Shield #3. The Helgardian has no Bridge or AUX left, but it still has one EMER.

TURN 7 AND ON

Both ships can barely power Life Support and move (very slowly). They have no power to activate Fire Control, Shields, or their remaining weapons. Both crippled ships disengage (eventually) with neither side really being victorious over the other.

Captain Kang of the Klingon Chintook yells: “Ka’Plah!!”

NOTES/SUGGESTIONS/CONCLUSIONS

1) We recommend that the cost to fire a Graviton Beam in standard firing mode be clearly defined in the rules (in Module E2). It is possible for players to misinterpret the rules as they are currently written (we may or may not have).

For example, (EN101.211) states that a Graviton Beam armed in standard firing mode can fire up to four times a turn. (EN101.12) states that it costs 0.5 points of energy to fire a Medium Graviton Beam in standard mode. So this could mean either:

a. For 0.5 points, you get four shots with a Medium Graviton Beam

b. You can shoot up to four shots with a Medium Graviton Beam, but each shot will cost you 0.5 points. So to fire 4 shots, you would need to pay (0.5 x 4) 2.0 points of energy.

Since it did not make sense to us for 0.5 points of energy to yield 4 shots per turn, we decided to go by (b). So we paid 0.5 points of energy for each Medium Graviton Beam shot, up to 2.0 points per turn (in standard firing mode). Is this correct? If (b) is not correct and (a) is true, then isn’t 0.5 points of energy for 4 shots too little? The damage caused by a Medium Graviton Beam is roughly equivalent to a Phaser-2, in many ranges it is better. So if (a) is true, then you are getting four times the amount of shots of a Phaser-2, for half the price (0.5 vs 1 point for a Phaser-2).

One easy way to correct this is to add a short example in the rules. The example would eliminate any misinterpretation of the text.

Of course, the issue of how much it costs to fire a Graviton Beam in standard firing mode applies to the Light Graviton Beam, the Medium Graviton Beam, and the Heavy Graviton Beam. All three can be resolved easily by adding a clear example to (EN101.211).

2) We suggest to clarify the Focus Mode under the Graviton Rules Summary on the Helgardian Protector CA SSD. It states, “Weapon can fire in focus mode once per turn. This reduces the range by 9 (to a minimum of 3).”
In (EN101.23) we are told that, “by adding additional standard cost(s) to the basic cost, the effective range can be reduced by three additional hexes.” Also, under (EN101.232), we have an example showing a calculation where the Helgardian player has to pay 0.5 x 3 to reduce the range by nine hexes.

So it would be understandable for a (new) player, who is only reading the Helgardian Protector SSD, to think that if he pays twice the cost of the Graviton Beam, the Graviton Beam will fire in focus mode with a reduction in range by 9. But this is not correct. According to (EN101.23), the Helgardian player must actually pay for reductions in 3-hex increments, up to a total of a 9-hex reduction.

This can be easily corrected by changing the wording on the SSD to state reductions are paid for in 3-hex increments (up to 9 hexes). The SSD should not say “this reduces the range by 9”, which is not necessarily true.

3) We recommend to add a Rotating Shield tracking chart on the SSD itself. Since there are two Rotating Shields on the Helgardian Protector CA, we found that each Rotating Shield must be kept track of individually. This is especially true because they can be rotated to a new facing every 8 impulses. We ended up marking on the Impulse Movement Chart and sometimes scribbling notes on a post-it. But wouldn’t it be easier and more convenient to have a nice Rotating Shield chart on the SSD, just like the Qari SSD with Turret Facing and Cannon Firing? We know the Helgardian Protector CA SSD already seems a bit crowded, but perhaps there is a way to add a Rotating Shield tracking chart for the final SSD version.

4) We recommend to add a Graviton Beam tracking chart on the SSD as well. The reason for this is because each Graviton Beam firing in Standard Mode can fire every 8 impulses. Since the Helgardian Protector CA has 6 Medium Graviton Beams and 3 Light Graviton Beams, it can get a little confusing as to which Graviton Beam fired and on what impulse. A handy chart incorporated directly into the SSD would solve much of this confusion and keep all the Graviton Beam tracking in one place. We know the Helgardian Protector CA SSD is already crowded, but a Graviton Beam tracking chart would be really helpful and convenient for the Helgardian player.

5) We initially believed the Rotating Shields might be too powerful. In (GN100.232), it basically states that Rotating Shields can be restored every turn, regardless of the damage they sustained in a previous turn. This seemed like it would be an unfair advantage in a long, drawn out battle, where an enemy’s shield would be slowly worn out, but the rotating shields would not be (similar to the original Andromedan PA problem). It also could be an issue with Alpha Strikes. Normally, the exchange of Alpha Strikes would result in the complete loss of one shield on both ships. But with the Rotating Shields, the Helgardian could survive an Alpha Strike and even have Rotating Shields later covering the shield that was destroyed by the enemy’s Alpha Strike.

However, our Playtest Duel #1 between the Helgardian Protector CA and the Klingon D7 Battlecruiser showed that the Rotating Shields were not a distinct advantage. Perhaps this was because Rotating Shields only blocked half of the damage. There were times in the Duel when the Rotating Shields could not cover the appropriate facing, because 8 impulses had not passed yet. Also, once major damage was done, both Rotating Shields were destroyed, taking the advantage away from the Helgardian player. So Playtest Duel #1 did not show the Rotating Shields to be a major advantage, but future playtesting might still prove this theory to be true.

6) We initially thought the 4 shots per turn Graviton Beams would be too significant an advantage. The Burst Rate, Focus Mode, and Overload options for the Graviton Beams did not seem unbalancing, because they could only be used once per turn. But firing 4 shots per turn seemed like it would allow one of two things:

a. At close range, it would accelerate the rate at which all the enemy’s shields would be reduced.

b. At long range, it would give the Helgardian an unfair advantage by giving it four long range shots (per Graviton Beam) instead of just one shot per turn (the usual Phaser).

Just like in #5 above, the Playtest Duel #1 between the Helgardian Protector CA and the Klingon D7 Battlecruiser did not show the rapid-firing ability of the Graviton Beams to be a clear advantage. We will see if this changes in future Helgardian playtests.

7) We initially thought the Particle Shotgun would be too powerful. This weapon can generate 24 points of damage when overloaded at close range. This is a considerable amount more than an overloaded Photon Torpedo (which can do up to 16 points of damage).

However, just like in #5 and #6 above, the Playtest Duel #1 between the Helgardian Protector CA and the Klingon D7 Battlecruiser did not show the Particle Shotguns to be a distinct advantage. The Klingon held its own with its disruptors and sometimes had an advantage over the Helgardian because its disruptors could fire every turn. Future Helgardian playtests will show if the Particle Shotgun is too powerful or not.

8) The power curve, the shields, and firing arcs seemed fine on the Helgardian Protector CA. We don’t recommend any changes to these things.

9) The BPV seemed accurate. The BPV of the Helgardian Protector CA was very close to the BPV of the Klingon D7 Battlecruiser. The two ships seemed equally matched in the Duel.

10) It would be very cool if larger Helgardian ships had more Rotating Shields. We could see a Dreadnought having 3 Rotating Shields and a Battleship having 4 Rotating Shields.

11) According to Playtest Duel #1, the Helgardian Protector CA is an almost exact match for the Klingon D7 Battlecruiser. Neither ship was overpowered or underpowered. The Duel felt very fair with a possibility for either side to win. Future Helgardian playtests will show if this conclusion is true or not.

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 09:56 am: Edit

Hi Norman! Wow what a terrible battle!

1) You were correct, 0.5 pts of energy per shot, so to fire 4 times you need to pay 2 pts of enrgy. I'll take a look at the rule to see how to make it clearer and add an example.

2) note.

3) I'll see what can be done.

4)Okay let me see what can be done about that.

5) This is why they only block half of the damage, in the first draft (some 15 years ago) they were too powerful since they block all damage, we will see what the future playtest will show.

6) note.

7) Yes the Particle Shotgun can generate up to 24 pts of damage but, first of all you only have 3 on the CA versus 4 Photon on a Fed CA and secondly at range 1-2 you do only 14 pts of damage on average versus 16 at range 1 for the Photon and 13,3 at range 2. So 3 PS at range 2 will score around 42 pts of damage versus 4 Photon that score 53.3. The Ps scores a little more damage then a photon at longer range.

8)note

9)great.

10) The DN does have 3 Rotary Shields and also 5 Particle Shotgun.

11) Great let's see more of that!

Thank you and your playing group Norman!

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 11:04 am: Edit

I should note that the Particle Shotgun is more equivalent to the heavy photon torpedo which the Federal Republic of Aurora has on its dreadnoughts; that weapon also arms for six points over two turns, and can overload to a maximum of 24 points of damage per shot.

In that case, however, each heavy photon is an all-or-nothing affair, while a particle shotgun offers a broader range of damage options depending on how well (or badly) one rolls to hit.


Also, as François says, the term in this case would be "Rotary" rather than "Rotating", since the latter more specifically refers to that monster shield found on each warship of the Juggernaut Empire.


As it happens, the idea of a tracking chart for each RSH is something I was thinking would benefit a would-be Helgardian Ship Card; along with similar tracks for each Graviton Beam (akin to the tracks shown for the Particle Cannons shown on Neo-Tholian or Seltorian Ship Cards, as seen in this example).

In that game system, the track benefits from the limiting of firing opportunities to eight per turn over in FC, which avoids talking up too much space. So some other option might work better on an SSD.


Actually, to go off on a side note for a bit, the way in which FC retains 32 movement sub-pulses per turn, but has only eight impulses in which each ship can actually fire, has an impact on how certain weapons would be converted over from SFB.

(The PPD is a good example of this. Rather than have four shots on consecutive impulses, or six if overloaded, the FC version puts all four shots into a single volley and removes the overload function. This turns the PPD from a scalpel into a sledgehammer, which obliges ISC veterans from SFB to stop and re-consider their tactics in this new environment.)

In the case of the Helgardians, my thought was that the standard and overload modes for the GBs would work fine, but that the burst and focus modes might need to be trimmed out in the process.

(Since FC has a habit of trimming down heavy weapon options also, I could see the particle shotgun losing its underload option in that game system, but retaining its standard and overloaded modes.)

And in terms of each RSH, I could see each capacitor being given the same kind of treatment offered to ESGs on Lyran Ship Cards, as sampled here. (In FC, the Main Era ESG has a capacitor, but the Middle Years version does not. So, if one were to do separate Ship Cards for the pre-Y120 and post-Y154 Helgardians, an appropriate distinction could be made when handling each era's RSH capabilities by simply not including the reinforced shield boxes on the "early" Ship Card.)


It's quite a long way off, if ever, before any of that turns into a serious discussion, of course. But I wanted to try and note some of the mechanical aspects which one might look for in the "final" SFB rules, when it comes to seeing how to make things work one day in FC.


Oh, and to clarify: is the "Helgardian Stronghold" the name of that species' home territory, and the "Helgardian Protctorate" the term used to describe the region of space which they set out to extend their direct influence over after the end of the First Great Expansion War; or are the two terms interchangeable?

By Francois Angers (Francoisngg) on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 11:27 am: Edit

Hi Gary,

The Helgardian Protectorate replaces the older name of Stronghold.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Hi Gary. Thanks for the correction about the Rotary Shields, as opposed to the Rotating Shields.

For halfway through my Playtest Report, I had called them Rotary Shields. Then I noticed on the Helgardian Protector SSD that, at the bottom, it said "Rotating Shields (RSH)". That made sense to me, since they actually "rotate" around the ship protecting different arcs. So I went back and changed all of the Rotary words to the word Rotating.

After double-checking the rules in Module E2, and then remembering the powerful shield on the Juggernaut, I agree that the Rotating Shields of the Helgardian should be called Rotary Shields. Sorry for the error.

Francois, please note that on the Helgardian Protector SSD, the word (at the bottom) Rotating should be changed to Rotary. Thank you.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 03:11 pm: Edit

François:

Thanks for the clarification.


Norman:

Things have been getting more interesting for the Juggernaut Empire as of late; a wider range of hull classes (from a frigate all the way up to a 768 BPV battleship!) have been shown in various Captain's Log issues, if you haven't seen them already.


Actually, there was one other aspect of the Helgardians I'd like to one day see in FC, but not one which would do with the actual conversion process in and if itself.

Rather, it would be in the increased exposure they would get in squadron or fleet actions.

In SFB, it may be that they would commonly get played in duels, either using the historical ships or with some future tournament ship. (A TC based on the Vanguard CA would certainly be unique.) But in FC, the opportunity to play in larger engagements would allow for a greater exposure to the opportunities and dangers this faction might face in such engagements.

This might be most notable with the rotary shielding. If the SFB Helgardians are most likely to fight duels, a player can afford to mass the RSHs in one arc at a time, against a certain range of would-be opponents at least. But in FC, Helgardian squadron commodores or fleet admirals might have to take more care in how they arrange their rotary shield facings, in order to handle incoming fire from multiple enemy ships at once.

Particularly if they are faced with opponents that have a few extra tricks up their sleeves, such as the Andromedans.

(And it's not just FC where this would be a factor. In principle, both Starmada and ACtA:SF would shift things even further towards fleet actions. Actually, there is a Triangulum discussion thread over on the Mongoose boards, on the off-chance anyone here is so interested.)


But to get back to SFB: speaking of the Andros, has there been much in the way of playtesting done with the current crop of Triangulum empires against that faction?

I'd be curious as to how the various M33 fleets manage to handle their near(er) neighbours from M31.

By Norman Dizon (Normandizon) on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 02:00 am: Edit

Hi Gary. We haven't playtested any Andros against Triangulum yet. Some of my players really want to use the Andros. They also want to use Omega, Magellanic, Simulator, and others.

I have impressed upon them that our first goal should be to make sure the Triangulum Heavy Cruisers are balanced against the Alpha Sector's Heavy Cruisers. This means testing against the Feds, the Klingons, the Kzinti, the Romulans, the Gorns, etc. The Alpha Sector CAs are the baseline against which all others are compared.

Of course, this assumes that Francois intended his Triangulum CAs to be the equivalent of the Alpha CAs, and not like the Middle Years CAs of the Omega Sector. I asked Francois before starting the playtesting to be sure this is what he wanted. He agreed that Triangulum CAs should be able to match the Alpha Sector CAs.

After the CAs have been balanced, DDs would probably be next. Then probably multiple ship battles and other ship sizes.

I would place playtesting against Andros, Omega, Magellanic, Simulator, and others after that.

Still, playtesting the same ships over and over can get repetitive, so maybe we will throw in an exotic ship here and there just for fun.

Perhaps, at some point, we will pick four Triangulum CAs and see how they fair against the Juggernaut. Now that will be a battle!