With existing ships I'd say something like, "roll 1d6, if LESS than the number of labs on the ship accumulate 1 survey point. If 6 then the ship takes 1d6+1 damage (F&E scale) from a mischance or monster encounter. Up to 5 ships may work a province at once."

This doesn't actually REQUIRE a new hull, which in terms of coming up with units for Y4 is bad, so then you come up with a dedicated survey ship with 6 labs and enough weapons and shuttles and probes and armor and shields to have a chance with a monster or other space hazard. Give the new unit a big minus on damage taken from hazzards and it succeeds in getting a survey point on any roll but a 6 so it's a good ship for the purpose.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, October 04, 2012 - 04:30 pm: Edit

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Whatever is done should reflect that about 20% of Romulan territory is still unexplored in the base F&E rules.

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This doesn't actually REQUIRE a new hull, which in terms of coming up with units for Y4 is bad

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By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Thursday, October 04, 2012 - 05:11 pm: Edit

The ability to use regular ships is TOTALLY non-harmful to F&E.

Because the off-map limit on survey ships is based on empire LOGISTICS off map, not the availability of hulls. Lyrans especially can build survey hulls, but then can't use them to survey even if they are off map without an additional outlay.

So SURE, take 3 or less survey points a turn with a MAJOR chance of crippling a unit, rather than 3d6 safely.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, October 04, 2012 - 05:19 pm: Edit

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Because the off-map limit on survey ships is based on empire LOGISTICS off map, not the availability of hulls

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By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, October 04, 2012 - 06:42 pm: Edit

One other thing to remember is that the F&E rulseset is for the General War and that things set in the Early Years will probably be different...(due to some GW items not being available)...

By Mike Dowd (Duellist_69) on Thursday, October 04, 2012 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Survey ships are survey ships (and in F&E have a big economic surcharge) only because they have a large number of labs, planetary survey teams, astrographic charting equipment and dedicated non-military scientists to handle the exploration aspect of survey.

Scout ships have teams of technicians to maintain and operate the special sensors and provide early warning, electronic warfare and the whole host of in-game functions.

Just because modern (MY onward) starships that are assigned to survey duty have special sensors does not mean that you need special sensors to do survey work. Having them on a survey vessel means that the primary mission can be done with greater efficiency.

Since Y3 has survey cruisers for the majority of the empires, then all we need to do is add sufficient labs to a warbird hull that has tug capability, inflate the price and call it a Pioneer Bird.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, October 04, 2012 - 09:18 pm: Edit

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Since Y3 has survey cruisers for the majority of the empires

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By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, October 05, 2012 - 02:33 am: Edit

Back to square 0, as that recent discussion turned out to be somewhat more effort than it was worth as the problem is plainly solved, already.

Recap of what I see out there as worth looking at:

• The Tellarites. Major Federation race, we have seen none of their W-type ships (although 'GURPS: Federation' plainly says they have them). GURPS: PD also says they use photons on their W-refits, but it would be cool if that could be played with some - some kind of mixed main armament?
• Vudar. Started production deployment of Y-type ships about a year before the Klingon invasion and conquest, had W-type ships for something more than a decade before that.
• Borak. Started production of Y-type ships nearly a decade before Hydrans conquered them, and had W-type ships more than a decade before that.
• Some races are still missing ships, outright. The Rigellians don't have a 'destroyer' or specific 'heavy cruiser'; the Vulcans don't have a 'destroyer'-sized warships or a 'frigate' or 'light cruiser'-sized scout. Some of the more militant races (Andorians or Romulans) would also probably have built 'sublight battleships' like the Gorn WBB, and we don't have the W-type version of those (we do already have 'Early' battleships for several races in Y1 and Y3, although most are practically 'conjectural'). etc
• There are some obvious conversions we haven't seen. The Klingons began building their empire with the Old Kings ships left in orbit. Once they figured out tactical warp technology, the few ships of the Old Kings still remaining may have been refit with updated Klingon weapons. The Romulans, in contrast, had fought a sublight war with the Gorn and Federation using ships with 'atomic missiles and lasers', seemingly somewhat different from the later designs 'built around the plasma torpedo' in the Y60s (could be GUPPY III-like conversions, of course, with the whole middle section of the ship - the part built around the plasma torp - being 'refit' to existing wings and engines). Some of those older ships may have been refit with WTLs to act as police ships (no cloak/mask/veil).
• It would be nice to see some more variants. An Andorian missile cruiser, some 'all phaser' cruisers for various races, etc. While most races don't have 'scouts', it would be cool to see something like the predecessor to the scout that could provide early warning to fleets (a 'sensor picket' ship). No special sensor or anything like that, and no EW lending capability, just can be added to a fleet in the 'scout' command slot, has no heavy weapons, and provides the (S4.22) weapon status bonus - although care should be taken with these to make them not appear TOO exactly similar to the 'survey cruisers' in Y2/Y3 (even though general war era scouts do tend to often resemble survey cruisers).
• Some possible 'also ran' opportunities for single SSD sheets. An SSD for a 'generic pre-Orion sublight pirate'. Most "piracy" in this period would be via armed freighters, of course, but lets have a single ship the Romulan police and early Paravians can actually defend a convoy from! Mars, we know during the General War, was a major player in ship and fighter design in close competition with other yards...and is newly independent in this period, after being somewhat hostile to Earth in the sublight era. Might they have their own, unique (non-Terran), W-era designs? Or maybe just their own take on what a W-era refit should look like for the old Terran sublight ships (maybe less shields and more armor? Different weapons? etc)
• May be useful to demonstrate that the Romulans weren't 100% successful in converting every single everything-they-did to warp engines...have a few ship classes or variants that (for whatever reason) couldn't be refit to use warp engines...a 3x Plasma-G 'heavy cruiser'? ...a 1x Plasma-R, 2x Plasma-G 'light dreadnought'?
• There are various 'general' units still missing. DEFSATS are too powerful for the EY era, but we need something for transporter relay/weather satellite/meteorite defense work. No Y-monitors exist, yet. We know sublight freighters exist in this period (and I'd love a single sheet for those). etc.

• Klingons fought and conquered the Vudar in this period
• Hydrans fought and conquered the Borak in this period
• Gorn fought and conquered the Paravians in this period
• Kzinti and Lyran fought and conquered the Carnivon

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, October 05, 2012 - 10:33 am: Edit

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but we need something for transporter relay/weather satellite/meteorite defense work

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By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, October 05, 2012 - 10:54 am: Edit

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An SSD for a 'generic pre-Orion sublight pirate'. Most "piracy" in this period would be via armed freighters, of course, but lets have a single ship the Romulan police and early Paravians can actually defend a convoy from!

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By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, October 05, 2012 - 12:43 pm: Edit

I was actually thinking about exactly your post with this suggestion - thinking it might kill two birds with one stone. But having two somewhat 'generic pirate' SSDs could work, too, to provide a warp-powered one for the ISC.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, October 05, 2012 - 03:14 pm: Edit

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A meteor big enough to be a threat you can stop with a laser or atomic missile from a planetary surface

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...or sublight fighters...

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...or even a tractor beam on a freighter.

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I don't see why it can't be assumed that the stealth tech that allows DefSats to be so hard to spot was a new development before the "modern" ones got invented

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By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, October 05, 2012 - 06:19 pm: Edit

In a non-Velikovskian universe, any comet or other body with an orbit likely to near the affected world would have been identified many years prior to potential impact. Normal preparedness planning involves once a century events; I doubt all newly established settlements need to be protected against events that happen every couple of hundred million years.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, October 05, 2012 - 06:34 pm: Edit

And yet, the colony evolution article mentions meteorite defense as one of the important roles of DEFSATs.

Maybe there is some as-yet-unseen space monster out there that sits outside solar systems and chucks meteors towards inhabited planets...

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Friday, October 05, 2012 - 06:49 pm: Edit

Meteorites usually come from asteroids and/or debris from within one's own system. They are a inter-planetary hazard, not an extra-galactic hazard. So, if there was a space monster chucking meteors at inhabited planets, it would have to be already within the system. Not sitting outside of it.

By Alan W. Kerr (Awkerr) on Friday, October 05, 2012 - 06:55 pm: Edit

re: early surveying

What if we use a "build up the database" model of information gathering?

Use something like this:
if a ship is in a province for the entire turn, roll a d6 for each ship, and that ship gets: d6 points if a dedicated survey ship, d6-4 if warships, and d6-5 for non-warships. A roll of zero or less equals zero. When you reach a total of "X" points, the province is considered "surveyed".

This data would be from each ship's sensor/scanner logs being added to the "Known Space Survey" database. A score of zero (which would be fairly common) would mean that ships logs added nothing of significance (this turn).

For an added effect, there could also be a higher value "Y" that you need to reach before ships can strat-move through that province (or whatever the early years version of strat-move is). You need even *more* data before you trust moving at *those* speeds. The frontier would really be out-of-touch if you can't strat-move out there (or back). You would have to *plan* for "5-year missions" for some ships...

It is a bit of extra bookkeeping, but it seems like it would be fairly easy to do using one of the small black-and-white "planning scale" F&E maps.

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 02:20 pm: Edit

I would like to see actual F&E style hex maps of the alpha quadrant for each of the various early eras get made (hopefully with bases), kinda like the color omega maps. The hand drawn maps don't map up very well to a hex map (I have tried!)

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Eric,

I submitted those when I did the Omega maps. I can e-mail them to you.

By jeffery smith (Jsmith) on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 04:45 pm: Edit

ken, i would love to see those too please.

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 07:33 pm: Edit

I made the maps that are available in my map viewer thing based on the drawings in the rulebook on where the borders were. Here are the linkies:

http://goodsects.gotdns.com/Y60.png
http://goodsects.gotdns.com/Y75.png
http://goodsects.gotdns.com/Y92.png
http://goodsects.gotdns.com/Y102.png
http://goodsects.gotdns.com/Y126.png
http://goodsects.gotdns.com/Y168.png
http://goodsects.gotdns.com/Y168_NoTholians.png
http://goodsects.gotdns.com/Y185.png

You can make these yourself easily in the app I wrote (more on the thread at http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/188.html?1343439461)

Hopefully its ok for me to put these out there, I know SVC is picky on some SFU stuff being online but he hasn't shot down my app yet (I think it may be because he's a mac guy) so surely these are ok

Oh, and the Y168 is kinda ugly as its showing all the counters for the BATS/SB on the map as that app was written to use counters.

I just wanted official ones, as I *know* those maps aren't perfect. Basically if a faction looked like it had over 50% of the hex, I made it theirs, otherwise it was neutral. However I know I surely made a few typos in there, and the maps didn't line up very precisely to a hex grid.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 12:37 am: Edit

My main issue with those Y1 maps is how they don't line up all that well with the picture shown of ISC expansion in Y2 (Or in the Y168-172 scenario in ISC War, for that matter.) Although, that data was written long after those maps were done up, so a "revision of the data tapes" could potentially support a map revision, were one deemed appropriate.


For what it's worth, I see province 5910 as covering the orignal Resource Worlds (the area where the five founding planets were bottled in during the long era of non-tactical warp).

Since there are five provinces in the "inner ring" immediately surrounding the "home" province, I would like to see them ear-marked as the New Worlds allocated by treaty for each of the five species during the initial expansion of the warp-driven era. (Given the slow crawl of expansion in the years immediately following the formation of the ISC, this area would still potentially be valid through to Y80 or so.)

The next ring out (to include the first colonies in the off-map Distant Zone) could then be set aside as the worlds settled during the Y-era; with the two-prong ships of the unified Navy and Police pushing back the frontiers of the Concordium, and the mixed populations of the new colonies giving the "middle ring" a distinct identity, relative to the more homogeneous worlds in the inner-ring provinces (as proposed here).

That would bring the Concordium up to the starting point seen in Y160; at which point the "outer ring" of fortified provinces established in the era of first contact with the Gorns and Romulans would complete the picture of the Concordium as it would stand through the era of the Pacification and beyond.


It may not be until the Concordium gets a good run-through in Prime Directive terms before any such designations could be made; and, perhaps, not even then. But, still, I would like to see the chance taken to give the yellow circle on the Alpha Octant map a little more character beneath the surface; one which helps to showcase the unique history of the expanding Concordium.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 02:07 am: Edit

I should also note that the Y185 map is missing the "new" provinces which the Gorns and Romulans have claimed in the top-right and bottom-right corners (coreward and rimward of the Concordium respectively), as noted in ISC War.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 07:19 am: Edit

Gary,

The Y185 map is the original from Module F2: The Vudar Enclave.

As you have pointed out the early year maps are from Y1. I don't recall maps in Y2 but I will look later.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 02:10 pm: Edit

I recall F2 having an overlay that showed the full extent of Vudar space, but not of the Octant at large; but in any case, the data on the new Gorn and Romulan provinces in ISC War (which even goes as far as to name the three new Gorn provinces; Gepril, Girek, and Gorik, as outlined in (625.Y21)) is more recent, and is presumably valid for describing the state of the region by the end of the General War.

There are no maps in either Y2 or Y3.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 05:17 pm: Edit

It looks as if ISC starts in Y186.

Does anyone have a complete starting map done already?