Archive through February 18, 2018

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development: Module K2: More gunboats: Archive through February 18, 2018
By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Oops.

I misread your last sentence, John. I thought you were arguing against upgrading the ph-3s to ph-2s but on rereading I believe you were arguing for it. In that case, we agree.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 04:07 pm: Edit

We disagree to agree. :)

While I support the phaser upgrade idea, having all P-2s does make the PF more bland in the same way that an X-ship is bland with all P-1s.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 05:35 pm: Edit

John,

I agree that one use UIM would be a neat deal.

Or the P3 -> P2 upgrade.

But it really depends on WHY pf disruptors were range 10. And thats a SVC thing. And as for the thundering herd? Bah. Adding a LATE Lyran PF bennie isn't that big a deal. And just wave your hands to explain why only the lyrans got it.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Mike,

But it really depends on WHY pf disruptors were range 10. And thats a SVC thing. And as for the thundering herd? Bah. Adding a LATE Lyran PF bennie isn't that big a deal. And just wave your hands to explain why only the lyrans got it.

Do YOU want to answer the volume of mail SVC will get on this issue? I've worked in the game industry on an early MMO and I've had to answer e-mails from the Unwashed Masses. There's a high volume of fire and you're a stationary target.


I don't need ot be SVc to tell you fiddling with range is a huge potenital issue. The most obvious problem is the ability to inflict unanswered damage on the enemy. Fighting ships, a 10->12 update is not a big deal. Fighting other ATUs, it's huge. A Lyran flotilla would inflict 10 disrutors on an enemy ATU formation then run without the enemy able to get in a heavy weapons shot.

PFs are limited to range-10 because fighters are limited to range-10. This is one of the ways the playing field is levelled between the two types of units. The ability to shoot at 12 against units that have range-10 is not particularly fun to fly against.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 24, 2009 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Michael C. Grafton proposed a number of missions for a captured cloakable unit on 24 August 2009.

All of them run into several issues:

If you are not mass producing cloaking devices, but relying on a technological device from another empire, breakdowns are going to be frequent, and quite possibly fatal.

Second, constant running under cloak burns fuel FAST and tends to suck so much power out of the ship that it slows the entire convoy.

Consequently, the devices ARE used for some clandestine operations that are just too important, but are otherwise sent to labs for study (mostly to try to find out ways to penetrate cloaks used by Orions and Romulans).

Few are captured intact, however. That is why there is a rule allowing a Romulan or Orion (or other Empire with a cloaking device) to try smashing the device itself even if they cannot self-destruct the ship.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 07:58 pm: Edit

OFFICIAL MENTION OF SHIP IN ANOTHER TOPIC.
#########################################
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: New Ships: FIGHTERS AND GUNBOATS AND SHUTTLES, OH MY!: Cargo Pouch
Jim Davies September 3 2009
Race: All
Time: Y178+
Type: Pod
Hull: Shuttle or PF size box
General outline of idea: Cargo pods the size of PFs or shuttles that can be towed on mech links.
#########################################
PER SVC DIRECTIVE, COMMENTS ON THIS SHIP
SHOULD GO IN ITS OWN TOPIC, NOT THIS ONE.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 11:24 am: Edit

As a intellectual exercise... what should be included in a erstwhile K-2 module? Granted there are no plans for a K-2 at this time, what I am asking is, are there enough proposals to fill out a module?

Let's start with new rules. For example, let's take the Podlet proposal.(not the original 2 cargo box version, rather let us use the 5 or six cargo box versions SPP And SVC talked about. )(Note, these would almost certainly be the 25 cargo point capacity, half size version as opposed to the normal capacity cargo boxes.)

If (and this is a hypothetical example) the Podlet rule were published, it could lead to a new General type ship design useable by any Empire in the Alpha Octant. These "container ships" would represent a new model for cargo ships, as distinct from the model of the small or large freighter designs with separate drive and command sections.

Can any one suggest a rule proposals that would fit into a K-2 module?

(Note:this is not a call for heavy PF designs, that option has been closed, the door nailed shut, and the seams sealed with molten lead by the Steves.)

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 07:42 pm: Edit

Heavy Interceptors!
 
Heavy fighters and bombers on shielded warp sleds. (The Fourth Way.)
 
Motherships - expeditionary command ships with 3 squadrons
 
Reloaders - Ships with fast-dock mechlinks to reload a new set of remote controlled fighters onto a FiCon, with dozens/hundreds of fighters in storage. (Perhaps a stripped-down fighter designed to be remote controlled only?)
 
Optimized Death Rider PFs

Hot-Warp Gunboatship - ships capable of flushing their own engines and reloading booster backs and thus not needing a tender

Armed Workboats (wait...)

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 08:17 pm: Edit

A slightly more serious answer, the heavy Lyran trimaran gunboats from the first Stellar Shadows book, designed as a counter point to Hydran Stinger-Xs, built for the Andromedan War. Given module X1R's emphasis on gunboat usage against the Andromedan invasion, I think the Lyrans (and only the Lyrans) might go ahead and build these things at some point.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 08:17 pm: Edit

Are any of those suggestions actual proposals?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 08:19 pm: Edit

sorry, ADM. You post as I was writing...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 08:21 pm: Edit

Please remind me... did the Lyran trimaran gunboats require any new or changed rules?

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 08:36 pm: Edit

I could make them all serious proposals, but I know Jean is just going to put me back in the booth as soon as she gets my last ship for the month.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Part of me(the part that enjoys watching demolition derby night at the county fair) wants to watch you tell Petrick about the warp sled based Bomber conveyor is permitted under the existing rule set...

Just let me get my buttered popcorn tub, my big gulp root beer, and Reese's pieces ... should be quite a show.

Memo: get Jean to verify the Petrick has had his blood pressure meds today!

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Jeff:
No the HPFs do not require new rules, they have a 1/4 movement cost, add a center 3 box warp engine with out a WBP, and an FX engine weapons mount, it has a disruptor in the base model, but will be swapped out for a ph-2, or special sensor etc. depending on sub-type, a tractor, 1 C-hull, and a bit of a shield bump, for 52 BPV.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Cool. At least it has documentation (stellar shadows). Unlike Steve Zs "suggestions."

I was looking for things already on the proposals board to assemble into a list for a module K-2.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Saturday, February 17, 2018 - 10:33 pm: Edit

(J19.0) Warp Sleds - easy peasy

For that matter, let's just make it (J16.3) Heavy Megafighter Modules and save (J19.O) for something interesting.

He said new module. He did not say "existing rules set". Sky's the limit.

(Hey, it worked for drogues. I still think that section started out as an April Fool's joke.)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 12:25 am: Edit

No, not easy. You assume SPP will just cave in. I assure you, it will not be as easy as you assume.

On a second topic, ADM, please look to SPP post dated 10/02/2002. In the original K2 thread. He states heavy PF will "never" be made a part of the official history. He went on to say that Steller Shadows is the only place such will appear.

Perhaps you can persuade the powers that be named "Steve" to reconsider....

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 12:53 am: Edit

You could put in Interceptor variants but there is probably not a ton you can do with that considering they were just not around for very long.

Are there PF variants that make sense that have not been done yet?

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 12:57 am: Edit

Jeff;

I am well aware of that announcement. Which is why I called it a "A slightly more serious answer...". That was also before X1R changed "X-Tech largely ended the use of attrition units" by adding in X-PFTs and X-CV?s.

Given that the Lyran gunboats were first, and somewhat lackluster, the widespread use of casual gunboats, and their revived usefulness vs. Andromedans, I can see the HPF plans being dusted off and used.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 12:59 am: Edit

I thought heavy PFs were considered an engineering impossibility. That it was tried and failed.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 01:12 am: Edit

We don't want the Steves to cave on the first item. We need that Inbox to be full when the moment comes. Patience.

So what do we have for light PFs?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 09:15 am: Edit

ADM: ok, I will include Lyran Trimaran PF proposal on the list when there are enough items to actually make up a list of ideas.

Actually, since K-1 included Fed PFs, there is precident for non historical design in K modules.

Jon: yes, you are correct. See ADM answer above.

Steve Z: the point is to list actual proposals, if you know of a light PF proposal that you feel should be included, by all means, please tell us. If you feel that light PFs have been omitted, perhaps you might consider starting a proposal topic for light PFs.

Just looking, I found a Kzinti proposed MRN variant for modifying a MRNnto a two disrupters PF during the Andromedan war for service on the Goliath SsCS in RTN hunt operations.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 09:59 am: Edit

It may be worth noting that Federation PFs do enter production over in the Darwin's "dark future" timeline.

By and large, it would appear that many of the items that would in theory have into a second K-module for the Alpha Octant have effectively been pre-empted by other products. Workboats went into Module R11; recovery and survey PFs are in Module R12; new PFTs are provided in various other modules (not least of which being the X-PFTs used to hunt down the RTN, as seen in Module X1R); and PF flotillas for additional Alpha Octant empires have been provided elsewhere - to include the "lost empires" in Module C6.

Even in Captain's Log, the only items I can think of at the moment which have yet to be formally published in an SFB module are the Interceptor-workboats in CL50 Supplemental File, which are already available for free; and the additional StarHawk variants in Captain's Log #52.

Plus, the engineering limitations of "hot warp" gunboat engines has been noted, as the Stellar Shadows material makes clear that heavy PFs are impossible to build. (The heavy Interceptor concept has been nixed also.)

-----

However, I could also note that there is already a second "gunboat volume" out there - even if it is technically less of a K-module, and more of an "OK-module".

It offers a broader variety of gunboat shapes and sizes than is seen in Module K, courtesy of the flexibility provided by the "volatile warp" engines used on PFs in its own region of space. Indeed, the "volatile warp" concept itself allows for gunboats to be "something different", rather than simply re-using the "hot warp"/warp booster pack paradigm used elsewhere. Even the (conjectural) PF it has which looks like an old Terran CL functions quite differently to the (conjectural outside of the "dark future") "saucer-and-nacelle" PF some may be more familiar with.

And there are still plenty of opportunities for new Interceptors, workboats, and other PF types over there.

Indeed, some of the first "volatile warp" gunboats will be arriving at Shapeways in the near future, courtesy of Matthew Lawson's fine work in that regard.

In short, rather than trying to stretch an increasingly thin window of opportunity for "hot warp" INTs and PFs in the Alpha Octant, I'd argue that there are far richer pickings to be had over on the other side of the Void.

And as noted in the Sakharov article from Captain's Log #51, there is a later time in which some of these boats may well show up on the occasional Alpha Octant starship's sensors...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 11:52 am: Edit

Gary: noted.

There has been a change in the Skiffs subject. Slammers were added. I suggest that a Module K-2 would be a logical place for it to be added into the formal rules.

Any other ideas that fall under the skiffs sections?

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