Federation F-12 Fighter
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module J3: Back in the Cockpit:
Federation F-12 Fighter
In a completely wrong location, we talked about what the Federation F-12 would look like. Since it was done in the wrong location, I decided to move the core of the discussion over here.
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SVC wrote:
It just occurred to me that there was an original F-12 drone-armed version that the company tried to sell to star fleet. I bet it would be even cooler. Must have been some F-12s in colonial self- defense forces.
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Mike West wrote:
The key thing about doing a Federation F-12 is to remember the following sentence from (R6.F6):
"The small drone load that made it undesirable for Federation service was irrelevant to the Gorns."
That means that the drone loadout of the F-12 needs to be inferior to the base F-18.
Note that leaves unexplained how the Gorns were then able to keep tacking on more plasma-D and plasma-K torpedoes. But that is irrelevant to any Federation F-12s, as those advancements would have been made long after the Federation received any F-12 prototypes.
Also, don't forget this sentence, too:
"The Gorns purchased the entire assembly line in Y179 ..."
I assume this means that the Federation would not be able to produce (or even well maintain) any F-12s from Y179 onward.
(This does beg the question as to what "purchasing the entire assembly line" even means. But we'll just move past that one.)
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Steve Zamboni wrote:
The drone load doesn't necessarily have to be smaller than the base F-18, it just has to be inferior to the F-18C.
The F-18 factories probably had early C-prototypes or mock-ups by Y175, and Block III airframes with reinforced wings may have been an option shortly afterwards.
A design limitation meant the F-12 airframe could not be upgraded without replacing the entire wing box, so sales collapsed in the face of slick sales brochures showing F-18C and F-16C renders and increasing competition from inexpensive attrition models like the F-20 and F-104. With no Star Fleet contract and dwindling private sales, the factory is eventually idled and abandoned.
Purely by coincidence, one of the last users of the F-12 were the Skoleans with their Adversary Squadrons training units. The unit routinely embarrassed other units flying F-18s and G-18s, to the point that a Gorn observer once mused, "If only it could carry plassma torpedoesss..."
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SVC wrote:
That is EXACTLY what happened!
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Mike West wrote:
So, really what you are saying is that the F-12 could never have the special rails of the F-18B+ and F-18C. We know the F-12 could have the same normal drone loadout (2xI;2xVI or 4xI) as the F-18B and F-18C, so it is the lack of special rails that did the F-12 in.
And, considering that the F-18B+ was introduced in Y180, that means they were probably playing with early prototypes much earlier than that. Since the F-12 production facilities were sold in Y179, the dates are close enough to work out.
And, if you throw in that the F-18B was only done because of competition from the F-12 forcing the F-18 to up its game to stay in competition, that's an added bonus.
OK. A bit stretchy, but I can buy that. (Not that my buy-in is relevant in any way, but still ...)
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Steve Zamboni wrote:
I don't have the annexes at hand to check service dates, so I'm handwaving from decades-old memory the sequence of F-18 variants.
(Probably not the best thread to start essays on procurement program drama, for that I apologize. Too much time in a previous life dealing with procurement program drama.
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Mike West wrote:
I dunno. You wowed SVC and immediately converted the doubter (i.e. me), I'd say you did pretty well!
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Ken Kazinski wrote:
Is the data for the F-12 the same as the G-12 replacing the PL-D's with Type-I drones? And per Mike's posts the YIS would be Y179?
The F-12 is not listed in MSSB-R2.
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Mike West wrote:
The Y179 date I gave for the F-12 as when the production facilities were sold to the Gorn. So, that doesn't really apply here.
Since it was in competition with the F-18, it likely would have had the same YIS date, which is Y173. Presumably, it likely had a default load of 2xI, speed 15, 10 damage points, and 2xPh-3. That compares to the F-18 which had a default load of 2xI and 2xVI, speed 13, 10 damage points, and 2xPh-3. So, it would be faster than the F-18, but without the dogfight drones.
If it was produced, most likely there would have been an F-12B which added the dogfight drones, and a later F-12C which replaced those dogfight drones with normal drones for a loadout of 4xI. Let's guess about Y177 for the F-12B. This makes it outright identical to the F-18B. We'll assume the F-12C would have the same date as the rest of the C-refit fighters at 183.
So, if we go with the above, we have:
F-12: spd 15, 2xPh-3, 2xI Y173
F-12B: spd 15, 2xPh-3, 2xI 2xVI Y177
F-12C: spd 15, 2xPh-3, 4xI Y183
This means that the base F-12 is faster than the F-18, but carries fewer drones (matching the fighter rule description). So, while Star Fleet picked the F-18 because of the better drone loadout (like the rule states), there are still reasons for national guard units to still pick the F-12. That means the F-12 was a low-volume seller, but still making sales to interested worlds that thought the speed was more important than the dogfight drones.
However, in Y177, while the F-12 fixed its drone loadout, the F-18 fixed its engines. That leads to a situation where there is no advantage to the F-12, but using the F-18 probably has lots of price breaks due to its usage by Star Fleet. So, almost all of the worlds using the F-12 start to abandon it. Perhaps Skoleos is one of the very few that resist making the change.
By the time Y179 rolls around, the offer for the Gorns to buy the entire production would be a godsend to the company that is watching their market vaporize. They probably even make a side deal with the Gorns for the ability to get parts as needed (to support the few still using it, like Skoleos), and a very minor production of drone F-12s, while the majority of the facility is dedicated to G-12s.
Then, when the main product of G-12s figure out the C refit, remaining (and the few new) F-12s get the C refit to 4xI drones. Both G-12Cs and F-12Cs coming online in Y183.
The F-12 never gets special rails either because it wasn't possible for some technical reason, or just because changing to 4xI as an application of the G-12C work didn't include any of the additional work that would have been required to use special rails. What the reason is doesn't matter; the F-12 just doesn't get any.
So, as it turns out, my concerns are already addressed by the timelines involved, and Zamboni's idea works out just fine. And, as an added benefit, SVC doesn't even have to change one word of previously published rules to sneak in some F-12s for those snazzy models. This assumes, of course, that SPP agrees with the logic trail above and I didn't screw anything up too badly.
I smell a CL article ...
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Ken Kazinski wrote:
Thanks Mike. I will add this info to the list for the F-12 and add a conjectural note.
I put this here because this is the only place with the "add a discussion" button. Please move this topic to where it needs to be.
IMO, this is a good place to put it. 
While I've not said anything about it to anyone, when I first heard of the G-12 (when I got module J back in the early `90's), I had assumed that the plasma D torpedoes on it had replaced type VI drones, based on the blanket statement about the F-12 drone load-out being deemed inadequate for Star Fleet usage.
This was because I knew nothing of the Plasma-K torps (and don't think they'd been invented yet).
However, I like the background story you presented above better than my impression, so while we're clinking cold ones together on the subject (and for what little it's worth), it has my vote.
I find this idea intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter, sir. ;)
In all seriousness: good treatment. Presumably 8 BPV for the F-12, 9 for the F-12B, 11 for the F-12C and 10 for the F-12E (the latter with a pair of type-VI drones and a pair of EW pods)?
I would suspect it would follow the same pattern as the F-18.
Thus there is an F-18E, and an F-18BE, so there would be an F-12E and an F-12BE.
The F-18E was an F-18 with EW pods and two type-VI drones with a top speed of 13.
The F-18BE was an F-18B with EW pods and two type-VI drones with a top speed of 15.
The F-12E would simply be an F-12 with EW pods.
The F-12BE would be an F-12 with EW pods and type-VI drones.
If one goes with the concept that the F-12 was in fact produced in limited numbers and used by the Skoleons, then it probably saw improvement like the F-18 did.
The F-18 enters service in Y173 with a Speed of 13, two type-I drones and two type-VI drones with two phaser-3s.
To be merely competitive and have lost that competition, the F-12 prototypes probably were also speed 13 originally, had just two type-I drones, but had two phaser-3s. If the F-12 was speed 15 in Y173, it would likely have entered service in any case. That speed would be a pretty big deal versus the Klingon Z-V (speed 12, 1xphaser-3, 2 type-I drones).
The F-18B shows up in Y177. It is basically a normal F-18 that is improved to Speed 15, the same speed as the F-14 and F-15. As it happens, Y177 is also when the Z-Y shows up (the Klingon Speed 15 fighter). So maybe the F-12 is improved to Speed 15, and is known from that point also as the F-12B (but the Gorns, who bought the production, just call it a G-12).
The Gorns would improve it to add either two additional plasma-D torpedo rails (G-12D) or two plasma-K rails (G-12K). So perhaps any F-12 production in the Federation would have added two type-I drone rails (F-12C), downgrading the rails to type-VI on the EW variant (F-12CE).
Maybe the design lacked room for further growth, so no variant with type-III rails could be done, or maybe in its case the F-12C+ had the two added rails were special (2xtype-I and 2xIII). But as the Gorn G-18s topped out at four plasma-rails, maybe the F-12 could have six rails like the F-18C (4xtype-I, 2xtype-III).
Your principle problem is: WHY?
At that point you have, to all intents and purposes, two identical fighters. Both the F-18C and the F-12C would have 10 damage points, speed 15, two phaser-3s, four type-I drone rails, two type-III drone rails, a dogfight rating of 3, and two chaff packs.
If the F-12 is not going to be different in some way from the F-18, there is simply no point, and it really cannot be better, or surely the Federation would purchase it instead of the F-18.
The differences may be to small to see at SFB and F&E's level of detail.
What about the component parts that went into the construction of the bird?
An old book I had (published in 1981, I think) detailing the history of aircraft used by the U.S. Military, talked about an "Upcoming" design for a VTOL fighter that was meant to be deployed on cruisers and destroyers (the Reagan Era Battleship revitalization program not having been put into action when this book was written). The "Prototype" for the VTOL fighter made use of components from existing programs as a cost-cutting measure. If memory serves, the landing gear came off an A-4, the cockpit was from an A-7, the engine intakes were from an F-4, and so on...
The bird was really a Frankenstein's Monster of an aircraft (no insult intended to our family doctor), but it does suggest to me the possibility of something similar happening with Federation fighter procurement.
I mean, what if the F-18 had more interchangeable parts with the F-14? That simple fact would simplify logistics for the FEBA maintenance crews.
(Okay, it's a PSB answer, but given that such matters have no impact on the way any of the games are played, why not...)
Let us remember the actual point of this exercise: justify the production of F-12 miniatures that can be used on the game board. That’s the point.
The restriction is to not change published history and rules. That means that the resultant F-12 has to be initially worse than the F-18 (so it loses the competition) and never get any better than the F-18. It also has to be used by very few governments, other than Skoleos.
Given the above, anything is fair game. I gave it my pass, but obviously it was unacceptable. Doesn’t matter. It just needs to fit the above criteria to work. Of course, even the above restrictions are negotiable, if the Steves so choose. However, history shows that it is probably pretty accurate.
But let’s not forget the point is to be able to sell cool fighter miniatures, not to get someone (whether me, Zamboni, or anyone else) “credit” for a “new” Fed fighter.
Be it noted, I am not attempting to shut down creativity, only saying that if the end result is (as others have noted) materially superior to the F-18, the F-18 would be superseded by it. That if it were in its final incarnation identical to the F-18 in game terms, what is the point of having it?
Completely denying it type-III rails would make it inferior to the final incarnation of the F-18. Or restricting its drone loadout to four spaces, two of which are type-III rails (progression is F-12 is Speed 13 with 2xtype-I rails, loses out to the F-18 which has 2xtype-I rails and 2xtype-VI rails). F-12B is speed 15 (the variant purchased by the Gorns), but loses out to the F-18B which still has those two type-VI rails as well as the two type-I rails. F-12B+ gains two type-VI rails, but loses out to the F-18B+ which added two type-III rails (the Gorns eventually used this variant as the G-12K). F-12C is final version with two type-I rails and two type-III rails, but the F-18C has four type-I rails and two type-III rails (the Gorns use this version as the G-12D). The F-18 just ultimately has more growth potential than the G-12 frame (it added two more drone spaces over of the F-12).
One of the problems with the above is that there is a four plasma-D version of the G-18 (G-18D), but no six plasma-D version (which would seem to be what a conversion of the F-18C would be).
As alluded to already, it has to come down to non-game things as to why the G-12 exists.
Maybe the Skoleos found the cockpit a better, more comfortable fit for their body shape.
Maybe the G-12 handled landing on unimproved runways better, something the Gorns wanted in their fighters & shuttles.
Maybe the G-12 fly better in planetary atmospheres and thus better supported ground operations.
Maybe it simply comes down to production capability; the Feds kept too many F-18 frames for themselves, the Gorns had little choice but to use G-12 to keep their carriers supplied with fighters.
Garth L. Getgen
There are couple of paths to making the drone version of the F-12 inferior or at least less attractive than the F-18. This may even include "equal but a couple years late to the party".
Same with making the plasma G-12 equal or superior than the G-18. (This is kind of why there's a G-12 in the first place.)
The major handwaving left is to explain why a 6-torpedo fighter can't be made from an F-18C. (Unstable warp field, etc.)
My first idea was the stubby wings on the F-12 limited expansion and it never gets the type-III rails. A theoretical F/A-12 with larger wings may have been possible, but the cost of prototyping and retooling the line kills the program. As a 4-drone fighter in a 6-drone market, the F-12 is obsolete. As a 4-plasma fighter in a 4-plasma market, it remains competitive.
History says that the gorns bought the F12 production line specifically because the Feds would not built enough F18s for the Gorns to have what they needed.
Steve Z.:
With your indulgence, I'd like to try my hand at Magic Waving.
(Even though I really oughtta pull out Advanced Missions instead of relying on my frequently faulty memory.)
(Well, here it goes...)
Plasma Ds need to be "Charged." Presumably, there's a trickle charge (FAR too small to be recognized in EA) that's required to keep the Plasma D energized while it's in the rack.
Likewise, Plasma Ds on fighters need to be energized before the fighter is launched and, again, presumably, there's a trickle charge that's required to keep it energized until it's used.
While the F-18s converted to Gorn service don't have rugged enough "Bleeder Power Feeds" out to the wings to accommodate that small trickle charge, the F-12s were built to do so. It may even have been one of those "Unneccesary production expenses" that led the Federation to go with the F-18 instead.
(Just this storytellers two centi-credits worth...)