Archive through May 10, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module R14: Ships not published earlier :
Phaser boat SatShips:
Archive through May 10, 2019
This is NOT a new idea; it was passed back-and-forth between Ed Grondin and Scott Tenhoff back on January 16, 2003, but I'd like to bring it back.
Ed brought up that Module C3A gave us Andromedan fighters and carriers, but no carrier escorts; it was part of an idea he wished to bring up for a new type of Andromedan weapon. Scott followed that up with a variant of Satellite Ship that used Phaser-2s in place of their TRLs as a form of escort.
I discovered this exchange while researching whether I should post this "New Idea" (go ahead and laugh 
) of phaser armed Satellite Ships.
For my part, I had the idea independently when I saw the Andromedan Gun Sled (R10.61) in module R8. While I don't honestly see the Andromedans using the craft as a Carrier Escort (although it would likely be used in that role), I do see the Andromedans making sufficient use of such a craft when operating against Mass Driver equipped units in the LMC to (perhaps) warrant devoting some of their COB (and perhaps even some VIP) production at their Desecrator base to such a unit.
As far as an SSD goes, I would think it to be an extremely simple conversion of existing SSDs; for a prospective CBP, exchange the two FH TRL for three FH Ph-2s. For the prospective VPP, replace its single FH TRL with two FH Ph-2s.
In the name of honest disclosure, these numbers are really "Gut Feeling" numbers, but looking at the charts for the weapons, there is enough loss of expected damage with these modifications to make them less powerful than Canon COB and VIP in almost all respects. HOWEVER, if/when facing a massed drone (or MD missile) swarm, the higher rate of fire of the Ph-2 makes them more useful than TRLs in this particular circumstance, and, as such, is something I thought I'd put out on the floor for discussion.
I would not pay money to buy these toothless variants.
They'd have to have a normal tractor beam installed if you remove the existing TRLs.
Good call, Richard, and I think it may doom this boat before it ever sets sail. As presented, BOTH the Viper and Cobra takes on this concept already have one additional SSD box, so adding another would probably be frowned upon. Also, neither design has much in the way of things that might be "Removed" to make a place for them (although perhaps the Cobra hull could lose two of its six hull boxes, also suggesting a PA leak sensitivity to the design).
(Not sure what to do with the Viper, though; IMO, it's altering the design too much to exchange the PRB for a TRAC, but I can't see any other options... 
)
Nick, your view is quite reasonable. However, I'd like to play "Devils Advocate," if I may. Would their lower BPV costs make them less worthless against certain enemies? Maybe folks with high drone swarm capabilities (Kzinti)? Not only do they bring more defensive firepower, their (expected) lower cost ought to leave more BPV points for Commanders Options (such as more t-bombs) in an equal point value battle.
Another thought for where the scumba... Excuse me, ANDROMEDANS might find these boats useful would be in Hydran operating areas. Much like the Borak using masses of Ph-2s against Hydran Stingers, these things could, in theory, cripple more of the fighters than standard COB or VIP, especially with them not having the "First turn of the two-turn arming sequence" reduction of firepower.
(... And, if nothing else, if the Hydran fighters regard these things as a more serious existential threat than standard VIP and COB, they might REALLY unload on them? Possibly even unload enough to make 'em go boom?)
Why do satships need a tractor beam?
I would choose those satships in some situations over the TRL versions. Fighters, drones, even heavy plasma opposition. Might make sense as base defenders in drone, fighter, and plasma environments as Andro bases have a really rough time with those.
I don't really buy the notion that these are better than standard Cobras against Stinger-2s (per Jeffrey Anderson's 12:44 AM post). With TRLs, the Andros could at least whittle down the Stingers from long range. With phaser-2s they have to get close. I'm not convinced getting close to Stinger-2s is a good survival strategy.
Yeah, I think the main use would be anti-seeking weapon. The best anti-Stinger weapon for the Andros is the T-bomb.
Sat ships need a tractor beam in order to tractor things. It comes handy when you need to.
Yeah, but a Satship almost always has either a mothership or a base nearby and they all have tractors. It is nice to have but I am not convinced it is a necessity for a satship.
That's not a very good counter argument, especially a base which cannot move. What about those times where there ISN'T a mothership _with_ spare tractor capabilities nearby? It happens quite a bit.
Anyway I think replacing TRLs with larger quantities of phaser-two equivalent weapons is not likely to fly, completely apart from the resultant lack of any offensive tractor capability.
Bases can hold multiple satships and I do not believe all of them would be a "no TRL" model. If only a single satship is assigned I would make sure it is not a phaser version.
This sounds like a job for Tractor Viper! (fanfare)
Replace TRLs with larger quantities of not-phasers as above, then replace not-phasers with tractors. Niche filled.
So replace the TRL with two tractor beams?
The Andros are stranger then I thought.
You asked a VERY valid question, Alan, and your analysis of TRLs as a deadly effective weapon against Hydran Stingers is quite true.
The value of the phaser twoes against the Stingers is not in killing them outright, but in whittling them down.
Basically, it's doing seven sandpaper shots per turn instead of four sandpaper and one hard-kill per turn. TBH, I don't know if it's a good tactic, but it was presented as part of the reason why the Borak have what they have.
As far as bases having multiple SatShips to protect them, Jon, I must respectfully point out that the Desecrator SB had loads of Hangar space; SatBases, Base Stations, and Battle Stations, IIRC, only have the collapseable hangars for MWPs.
As far as assigned SatShips go, TBH, I'm guessing that if the base is going to be assigned something more mobile than a Gun Sled, they're likely to have a Recon Cobra or a Python.
You did pose the question about whether it NEEDS a tractor beam or not. That got me thinking that the standard MWP doesn't have a tractor. Neither do most (Rule section "K") Gunboats. While it really isn't legitimate, it is a plausable excuse for allowing these ships to get away with not having them...
... Maybe?
I would guess maybe not. The Flotilla has a tractor. It would seem deemed a necessity for being out independently operating. Now, if you could bind the ship into a group, say as a carrier escort... but I can see an argument that a carrier escort is more useful with a tractor beam than without.
I thought the MWP had a tractor. Ooops. I need to stop lumping the MWP in as a satship in my mind.
Jon, the "Recovery" version of the MWP has two TRL and, IIRC, the rulebook text says they're more often used as tractor beams (mostly due to shock effects, D23, on the boat if used as weapons), so you're not really wrong...
HOWEVER, the the header for rules subsection (G35.6) says specifically, "Mobile Weapons Platforms (MWP) are the Andromedan equivalent of fighters, interceptors, and PFs..." They are NOT true, full-fledged starships and, IMO, are perhaps not really a good rationalization for allowing these prospective variant SatShips to go without a tractor beam.
True enough. I get that tractor beams are valuable but I would think the Andros would be the one empire who would need them less and could leave them off satships but that is just my thought and I could very well be wrong.
In terms of considering what an "escort variant" satellite ship (or three) might look like, perhaps it may be worth looking at two unorthodox hulls of this type: the Chlorophon destroyer escort (OR7.10) from Module Omega #2, and the Bolosco Escorter (OR20.10) from Module Omega #4.
The Chlorophon DDE replaces the energy howitzers on the DD with quantum phaser-2s. But what truly makes this hull distinct is a special array of T-bombs, which enables them to purchase ten T-bombs in excess of the normal Commander's Option limits, along with additional transporter pads in order to deploy them, plus an armor belt intended to provide the ship with added protection while dropping a shield. Meanwhile, the Bolosco ES replaces the prow focused tractor beam on the Exchanger with a third integrated warp tractor. Like most Omega Octant empires, these "escort" variants may appear in the absence of carriers - but on the other hand, neither empire is noted as gaining access to (limited) Aegis fire control, as certain (non-Drex) empires do in Y194.
To go back to the Andromedans, perhaps lessons from these examples could be learned in terms of considering what would-be escort variants of the Viper, Cobra, and/or Mamba might look like, and how the Andros might consider deploying them. Since PA penels do not need to be dropped in order to deploy transporter bombs, the Andros could go one better than the Phons, were they minded to make room for larger T-bombs arrays. On the other hand, while even the Andromedans might be somewhat envious of Bolosco integrated warp tractor capabilities, the principle of leaning more heavily on tractor usage as a counter to enemy seeking weapons and/or attrition units might be a useful one for them nonetheless. And as with the Phons, or to a lesser extent the Bolosco, it may not be necessary to make these variants dependent on (simulator) Mothership carriers.
So, perhaps one way to go could be to swap out the TRLs on the Viper, Cobra, and/or Mamba with tractor beams, and to re-arrange the interior space so as to allow for more T-bombs to be purchased for them - perhaps scaling this based on the size of the satellite ship involved? One may perhaps allow these variants to be used in the absence of (simulator) carriers, yet clarifying that these unit types should not gain access to any form of Aegis fire control.
OOOOOHHH!!! Gary, I LIKE that idea!
However, I suspect that EVERYone who plays one of the Galactic Powers player is going to lynch us if we propose suggesting something that allows an Andromedan to have MORE T-Bombs.
Well it does make sense for the Andros. A sat ship carrying extra T-bombs type depending on operating area. As they do have those nifty ones that can hurt plasma. When dealing with Federation carrier groups ackkkkkk.
That sounds good. I would keep it down to one tractor for the TRLs and the rest replaced with phasers. Maybe remove a few hull boxes to carry the additional bombs as a counterweight?
I would also say put something in the fluff about storing them in extradimensional space or something so that the other Empires do not get them. All escorts (particularly Klingons and Lyrans) would love more T-Bombs to take out opposing fighters and drones.
At this point, I'm thinking in terms of modified versions of their cargo boats or (perhaps preferably?) their Marine ships. I don't have Module M out right now, but IIRC, the Diamondback has either four or five transporters already, as does the Rattler. Both boats also have Cargo boxes; things potentially transformed into mine racks.
Also, as has been discussed earlier in this thread, both ship types have tractor beams as well.
Both ship types also have Displacement Devices. This can be of benefit, provided there is just a single mothership present.
On a fringe note, if the #2 hits the fan for the Andromedans, these ships can drop a barrier of mines to give a mothership time to collect the other SatShips and it can then escape with its own ability to use the RTN/DisDev.
(Mind you, we're now pretty far from the original idea behind this thread, but it's gotten a LOT cooler! )
The fatal flaw, to me, is if you allow this at all, given Andromedan technology, how are you going to explain why any given Andromedan ship cannot have more than the currently allowed number of T-bombs. Any individual Andromedan ship can find itself facing more seeking weapons or fighters than it can normally handle, and being able to violate the current limits on T-bombs would be a major change.
And just saying "empire X was allowed to do it" is not an answer.
SVC NOTE, then delete that part and evaluate what is left.