I would like to see some more X-ships. In my opinion there are still a few "holes" that need to be filled, but not nearly enough for an entire module.


Federation - An X-tech version of DDL. Start with a DDX and replace 2 photons with Type-L plasma torpedoes. Mission is fighting cloaked ships (especially X-ships) on Romulan front, but if fortunes of war required the Feds to deploy one of these to the Klingon front instead, it would still be advantaged over the FX or FWX. Note to those who say giving the Feds Type-L plasma is "tech sloshing" - the Feds already have Type-L plasma. Unless I am mistaken, it's already completely legal under the XP-upgrade rules for the Feds to take a standard-tech DDL and upgrade the F-plasma to L-plasma. But right now they can have those weapons on XP-ships but not true X-ships, which seems peculiar.

Tholian - Almost every empire has a cruiser-based (usually a CWX but a few are based on heavy cruisers) X-scout with at least 4 special sensors. The Tholians have a CWX-based PFT but it only has 2 special sensors and can't compete in the EW arena with the other CWX-based X-scouts. Take a Tholian CWX and replace all 4 disruptors with special sensors, no other changes.

I can think of some other "nice to have" X-ships, such as a Fed NCLX or a Tholian photon-armed version of the CWX. But they don't seem to me as critical as the 3 ships described above.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Not meant as snarky, more as resigned.

It is amazing how quickly "this empire should have" morphs into "these empires should because that one has" into "almost all empires have so this one should have" to finally "all empires should have."

So the Tholians should get a CWSX.

And I guess the Vudar should get a CWSX.

And the Jindarians should get an LSSX (LCS variant), and the WYNs should get a CWSX, and some how the LDR should get at least a conjectural CWSX, and the Seltorians should get a CLSX, and the Peladine should get a CWSX, and the Borak should get a CWSX, and the Paravians should get a CWSX when their X-ships are done, and the Carnivons should get a CWSX when their X-ships are done, and on and on, to include Orions needing a BRX-Scout to support rent-a-mercenary-squadron operations.

And the response to the above is "Okay, just give my empire the new ship and do not give it to anyone else, so at least my empire will be equal to the other empires that already have this thing."

Which does not last because (start cycle again).


As to the Feds getting a DDLX, once the door is opened will we need an FFLX? NCFX? The Feds have a lot of experience with using plasma-Fs and could make a reasonable case for getting plasma-Ls if the plasma-F experience justified it.

So how many Federation players make sure to take a plasma-F ship when going up against a Romulan squadron?

NOTE: My experience is out of date. Plasma-F Federation ships were available when I did a lot of gaming, but I only used them rarely because the plasma-arming cycle of the plasma-Fs was (in my experience) too difficult to reconcile with the photon arming cycle. The point here is that I know the RULES for plasma carronades, but have no experience with Federation ships with plasma carronade capability, i.e., I have never had a Federation plasma ship along for the ride to help me hunt cloaked Romulans. I had been promoted to staff and no longer had a field command when Carronades arrived. That being said, back in those days I did frequently use the IKV Runner and IKV Racer as a kind of independent squadron backed by at least an F5S. A little ahead of my time and with much smaller plasma torpedoes than what would be developed as the Peladine (plasma and drone combination).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 05:14 pm: Edit

SPP,

My response for "what this empire should have" questions would be to ask 3 questions of my own.

1. Does the proposed ship fill a tactical need? A "need" is not a "nice to have". A Tholian photon-armed version of the CWX is not needed, given that the Tholians already have the (more capable but more expensive) CPX and PAX and the (less capable but cheap) DPX. But they do need to be able to compete in the EW arena, and they are currently outclassed. The CPX only has 2 special sensors and the SCX is underpowered. I would argue that the Feds need at least one X-tech ship type with plasma-L and the DDX is the most logical base hull for it. The FFLX or NCFX by comparison would be merely "nice" rather than "needed".

2. Is the proposed ship technologically plausible? This seems a clear "yes" for the Tholians and a "very probably" for the Fed DDLX - given that a standard DDL can already upgrade its F-plasma to L-plasma under the XP rules.

3. Can the empire afford the proposed ship? The Feds can easily afford a few DDLXs. They have the strongest economy of any Alpha empire. The ability of the Tholians to afford a CSX is a little more tricky, since it reduces their already-limited number of X-cruisers. But I would argue that it is worth it, given their EW disadvantages. They still have the NCX/NLX/CCX/CPX/CAX/PAX ships, all of which are better - purely as cruisers - than the CWX.

Obviously different people may have different opinions on the answers to my questions and you and SVC are the final arbitors. But in general I would say that if you can answer "yes" to all 3 questions, then "the empire should have this".

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

In re Federation Plasma-L ships

Please see previous.

That is to say I did ASK FOR INPUT and did not do a rush to judgement. Are there enough Federation Players who believe the ship would be truly useful as opposed to a kneejerk "the Feds had plasma-Fs, they therefore MUST BUILD PLASMA-L SHIPS.

I specifically noted that I lacked sufficient practice with Carronades to be able to definitively say at this juncture "The Feds would not do this." My experience is pre-Carronade, and the Federation Plasma-Fs (at least without Carronades) were too clunky and short-ranged and had a bad arming cycle that interfered with their synergistic support of a squadron and were even less useful in a fleet. A Fed FFL could at least duel with a SkyHawk (disadvantaged) or SeaHawk (advantaged) or K4s (about equal). A squadron of them could engage mixed squadrons of Romulan ships (A SkyHawk squadron would be suicidal, there is an edge over a K4 squadron because of the drone racks, and the SeaHawk squadron is pretty weak in comparison over all . . . my experience back in the day). But back in those days the plasma ships were just not that useful against the Romulans (remember, no carronades, and thus why I ASKED FOR INPUT) as single ships mixed into squadrons or fleets. And single patrols of them were pretty much "I want to use Feds instead of Gorns" because you could just replace the FFLs with Gorn DDs (and have the advantage of plasma-Gs).

To your second point, I never once said the plasma-L variant was implausible. I said based on the combat experience, would the Federation have done it? Again, I asked. Does having a single Carronade capable ship in a squadron make up for the lost photons? I again note I said I did not know, I am Staff, no longer a front line combat commander (if you will pardon the comparison here). My experience base stops with the basic plasma-F torpedo. Obviously I am saying if there are a lot of Federation commanders with experience who want this thing in their X-squadrons, that is one thing. If there is no support for it, that is something else.

To your third point, there is no point in building it even if you can afford it if the combat experience indicates that the ship would be a dud.

As to your argument #1 on X-Scouts. See my previous comment. You have basically made the argument that All Empires Should Have A CWSX. Heck, since the Federation has the GSX, perhaps all empires need a GSX by your logic. Same for your Argument #3 in relating to X-scouts. You have basically said all empires should have them, i.e., everyone must have this ship.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 08:25 pm: Edit

SPP,

Since my favorite empire is the Tholians, I don't have a huge amount of experience with carronades versus cloaked enemies - only one battle that I can recall. I don't recall the exact circumstances but it was something like a cruiser and two size class-4 ships on each side and one of my ships was a DDL+. My recollection was that the DDL+ was indeed useful in the battle as it was able to "depth charge" the Romulans while all three of my ships held overloaded photons waiting for them to decloak. The damage per turn wasn't huge but I was getting two shots each turn that the Romulans couldn't respond to without decloaking - and eating photons. (A light meal, as one of my other opponents once remarked.) I acknowledge that different Romulan tactics might have made the carronade less effective, but that one battle did dispose me favorably toward the weapon. Still, more expert Fed and Rom players might see it differently.

I don't understand your point when you say:

---

Quote:

To your third point, there is no point in building it even if you can afford it if the combat experience indicates that the ship would be a dud.

---

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 08:33 pm: Edit

On rereading what I just posted - I hope it doesn't come across as rude or disrespectful. That wasn't my intent and I apologize if it does come across that way. But maybe I could have worded it better - I'm just not sure how, off the top of my head.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Part of the issue may be one of historical context.

By the time the Tholians are spending their first XTPs on X-ship construction, the pressure on them from the Coalition is at a low ebb. The Romulans are in a near-total shambles after Operation Remus, while the Klingons are far too busy trying to keep the Alliance from pushing too close to Klinshai itself.

The main "active" threat in the early-to-mid Y180s is from the Torch expedition, yet the Seltorians' attempt at acquiring X-tech was (supposedly) pre-empted by the Echelon of Judgement. And while the Andromedans kick things off a few years later, they do not have X-ships either.

Which is not to say that there would be no cause for the Holdfast to get around to fielding a larger X-scout at some point. But the outside pressure on the Holdfast during the X1 era is distinct from that placed on other Alpha Octant powers, which may lead them to take a different approach in response.

(I'm not too up on HDW or HWX rules, but can the Tholian HDWX from Module X1R be configured as an X-scout? And if so, how many special sensors would it have?)

-----

Personally, the Tholian unit I'd be most keen to see get an SSD would be the Draco-Tholian ship Sojourner, as detailed in Loren Knight's Tholians of Draco article from Captain's Log #39 and Away Team Log.

One thought I had was to perhaps re-purpose the Neo-Tholian NSR from Module R9, to represent the Sojourner after it first arrived in Holdfast space (and presumably had "proper" special sensors installed). In which case, might a new SSD be done in order to represent an "NRX" (or perhaps even an "NRXP" X-PFT) conversion?

That would allow the ship to "earn its keep" through helping to clear out any RTN nodes in, or close to, Holdfast space, while waiting for a task force to be organized for it to lead back to the Tholiax colony over in the Draco Dwarf galaxy.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 11:43 pm: Edit

I think it could be argued that the Tholians did not really need an expeditionary X-ship squadron that would require an X-scout to keep up, at least not as much as actual large empires.

With the shortage of large hulls that they had, I imagine they were reluctant to make a CWX based scout instead of an actual CWX, as most of the time they'd be able (in a fleet battle) to arrange a CWS or be fighting defensively where a base could use EW support.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 12:03 am: Edit

Gary,

I believe the Tholian HDWX can only take 2 special sensors - in the 2 RA option boxes. But I also would have to review the HDW rules to be sure.

Richard,

A CWS doesn't cut it in this case. It can't place OECM on an enemy X-ship. Only an X-scout can do that.

Alternate proposal - the Tholians refit their CWPX, replacing phasers 7 and 8 with 2 additional special sensors. It doesn't really need more than 6 phasers anyway.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Converting to a table.

Empire	Scout	Size Class	Sensors	Power	Move Cost
Fed	SCX	4	4	32 (9)	1/2
Fed	GSX	3	4	46 (18)	1
Fed	GVX	3	4	46 (18)	1
Fed	NASX	3	4	46 (12)	1
Klingon	FSX	4	4	30 (9)	1/2
Klingon	D5DX	3	4	35 (9)	2/3
Klingon	D5SX	3	4	37 (9)	2/3
Klingon	D5PX	3	2	35 (9)	2/3
Romulan	SKSX	4	4	29 (18)	1/2
Romulan	K5SX	4	4	29 (9)	1/2
Romulan	SPEX	3	4	35 (9)	2/3
Romulan	SPUX	3	4	35 (9)	2/3
Romulan	SPCX	3	4	35 (9)	2/3
Romulan	FHEX	3	4	46 (9)	1
Kzinti	FDX	4	3	21 (9)	1/3
Kzinti	CMDX	3	4	32 (9)	2/3
Kzinti	CMSX	3	4	36 (9)	2/3
Kzinti	CMPX	3	2	36 (6)	2/3
Gorn	BSX	4	4	31 (9)	1/2
Gorn	HSVX	3	4	37 (6)	2/3
Gorn	HDPX	3	2	38 (9)	2/3
Gorn	HDSX	3	4	38 (9)	2/3
Tholian	SCX	4	4	27 (9)	1/2
Tholian	CWPX	3	2	36 (9)	2/3
Orion	---	---	---	---	---
Hydran	SCX	4	4	28 (9)	1/2
Hydran	VDX	3	4	38 (6)	2/3
Hydran	PGX	3	2	31 (6)	2/3
Hydran	MSX	3	4	39 (12)	2/3
Andromedan	---	---	---	---	---
Lyran	SCX	4	3	31 (9)	1/2
Lyran	CWSX	3	4	38 (12)	2/3
Lyran	CWPX	3	2	37 (9)	2/3
WYN	CWPX	3	4	38 (12)	2/3
ISC	SCX	4	4	28 (12)	1/2
ISC	CLSX	3	4	40 (12)	2/3
ISC	PFTX	3	2	39 (9)	2/3
LDR	SCX	4	3	31 (9)	1/2
Seltorian	DSX	4	4	30 (9)	1/2
Jindarian	---	---	---	---	---
Vudar	SCX	4	4	32 (9)	1/2
Borak	SCX	4	4	32 (12)	1/2
Peladine	SCX	4	4	29 (9)	1/2
Frax	DSX	4	4	28 (6)	1/2

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Holding the question of a Tholian CWSX in abeyance for the moment, does anyone have any further comments on a Fed DDLX? I still think that it would make sense for the Feds to deploy at least a few plasma-L armed X-ships. They can afford more X-ships than anyone else and the DDLX is a better cloak hunter than anything they currently have.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 05:17 pm: Edit

I think the DDLX is a good idea, it will help with Orion Pirates*, as well as Romulan units.


* Yes I know deployment is tricky, but just the threat can make a smart pirate more cautious.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 05:30 pm: Edit

As it happens, there is a note about the DDLX request in the SFB proposals board article in CL50 - as well as about the ISC survey carrier proposed earlier in the thread.


For what it's worth, I'm not too sure the Feds would have much use for one (or more than one) by the time there are enough XTPs in the bank for Star Fleet to have the luxury of deploying more X-ship variants.

With the General War close to winding down, the Romulans tottering on the brink of collapse (as noted above), and there probably not being all that many cloak-equipped Orion X-ships in Federation space by that time, the usefulness of the carronade may be more limited.

I don't know if a pair of plasma-Ls would be worth more than a pair of photons or drone racks against ISC or Andromedan opposition.

In any event, were such a ship to be made to exist, I'd be more comfortable with the idea of it being a one-off, or perhaps considered as a "failed experiment". I would not wish to see it being treated as "the thin end of the wedge", in terms of trying to shoe-horn more plasma-L X-variants into being because of it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 06:10 pm: Edit

In all seriousness, it is not "I think" that I want to hear on this issue.

And I do not need a "I have created my own Federation DDLX and I find . . ."

What I want to hear is "When I run Federation forces against the Romulans, I include a/some Federation ships with plasma torpedoes in order to use the carronade function. I find this very helpful."

Or "In my experience, the Carronade function of the plasma-F torpedoes did not make up for the loss of photon firepower in my encounters with the Romulans."

I do not expect Federation Captains/Commodores to reply about their use of carronades in Federation X-Squadrons, because after all to date they are not available. But without a track record/reports from Federation players that they do in fact find the Carronade function worth including a plasma-F armed ship (at least one) in a squadron scale battle against a cloaked target, or one or more in a major fleet (seven ships or more) engagement with the Romulans I have to ask (and it is what I have been doing from the start) if it is worth it to produce a few X-ships with such weapons?

Again, my experience with plasma-armed Feds pre-dates the Carronade, and I did not find them particularly useful. But as there were no carronades then, I have not said "No, no Fed X-ships with plasmas because they are just not useful enough to waste X-tech on." I have said, and will say again, let me hear some reports that the plasma-F ships were deemed useful such that Fed players routinely at least tried to include one (or more) in their forces when engaging Romulans. (And again note that it was not unusual for me to take a squadron of FFLs to go fight a Romulan, or Gorn, or even ISC squadron, but again that was pre-carronade and the arming cycles of the plasmas did not bother me because they enemy simply had the same arming cycle.)

If the non-X plasma-F ships were at least useful, I can see the experiment being extended to some X-versions, but if not, I simply really doubt the Federation would have done so.

X-Tech is already rare, expensive, and would be easier to maintain if you only built standard Federation Technology versions of it instead of "foreign technology."

X-ships are few enough in number in this period, and the ISC and Andromedan wars firing up, I doubt even the Federation would routinely build "Romulan Front X-ships" and would go for the more "All Fronts Bog Standard Federation Technology able to operate on any front" ships.

So, Federation Commanders, were plasma-F torpedoes so useful against the Romulans that you would routinely take them? Or were the technological and tactical differences such that you more or less ignored the plasma-F armed ships and only took them if some game circumstance (special scenario rule, etc.) forced you to?

I have gone through all of the battle group articles. And perhaps we should here from Eddie Crutchfield on the matter. He has take plasma-armed ships five times. A BCF twice, and a DDL three times. No other Federation commander has ever taken a Federation plasma-armed ship. That covers the Star Fleet Battles battle group articles from their inception in Captain's Log #7 through the proposed Federation Battle Group for Captain's Log #52. In Federation Commander, plasma-armed ships were taken exactly once; the entire Federation force was composed of such ships, but the player noted he was taking them specifically to showcase the new plasma-armed ships. But that is a lot of Federation players not taking the ships even if a lot of it is pre-carronade.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 06:11 pm: Edit

Regarding a Fed DDLX (or any other plasma-armed X-ship), it would seem that the supply chain needs to be examined.

The Feds never made Pl-F torpedoes. They were completely dependent on the Gorns for the supply and parts. The Feds never produced Pl-F torpedoes for themselves. (Unless something was printed that I missed, which is always a possibility.) That strongly implies that would still be the case with Pl-L launchers. So, the supply of the weapons and parts would still purely come from the Gorns.

So, that brings us to two parallel questions:
1) Would it be worth it to the Federation to purchase Pl-L launchers and parts from the Gorn? Is any theoretical tactical or strategic advantage worth the cost and effort it will take to set up this supply line with the Gorns? And remember, we are not talking about just two or four launchers (assuming only one or two DDLXs); we are talking about an entire supply chain to support those, and probably a few extra for backup, resupplies, and replacements.

Also, remember that even the mighty Federation had their economy ground to dust by this point. Is it really worth the out-sized costs to equip just one (maybe two) ships with this weapon? Plus, each X-ship is virtually unique. Is it really worth eliminating one of your extremely valuable DDX ships to create the DDLX? Is the opportunity cost worth the gain?

In addition, when the first DDL was made, it was a mystery to the Federation on how it would operate and work with the rest of the fleet. That would no longer be a mystery. Would their experience with the FFL/DDL/NLL/NAL show that investing in one or two DDLXs is worth the cost and investment? And, remember, it isn't just an investment in a variant design; it is an investment in a whole supply chain in addition to whatever any other variant design would require.

2) Is this worth it to the Gorns? How easy is it to produce Pl-L launchers? How much need to they have? I would have to imagine that selling any to the Federation would mean that there are units in the Gorn fleet or auxiliaries that would then not have those weapons available. Does that hurt? Is the price they get from the Feds make up for that?

And remember, the Gorns will have to make their own non-trivial supply chain in order to be able to deliver these weapons and parts to the Feds on a continual basis. They are not going to do this as a charity or even at-cost. So, are the Feds willing/able to pay enough to not only cover those costs on the Gorn side, but also deliver enough extra to make it worth the Gorns' while?

I would expect that both of those sets of questions would have to come out completely positive before setting up that entire supply system would be worth the while. Is it?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Note that my above message after Gary Carney's was being written and researched (checking the published battle groups) and was not a direct reply to him even if it wound up covering much the same ground.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 10:15 pm: Edit

SPP,

Note that my 8:25 PM post from 23 June did in fact describe (within the limits of my recollection) my experience with carronades - as a Fed - against a Romulan opponent. I realize it's only a single data point submitted by someone who is not an expert at playing the Feds; but it is an actual data point.

Regarding your point that

---

Quote:

I doubt even the Federation would routinely build "Romulan Front X-ships" and would go for the more "All Fronts Bog Standard Federation Technology able to operate on any front" ships.

---

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 11:03 am: Edit

Alan,

As I stated, I could be wrong. But all references I could see stated that it was "foreign" technology purchased from the Gorns. I don't ever remember seeing anywhere that Pl-Fs were produced by the Feds.

That all said, I stated that position as a question, not an outright assertion. My actual assertion was that it would have to make economic sense for both the Feds and Gorns to create a Fed plasma X-ship design. Given that assertion (which could still be wrong), I gave what I think would be hurdles to establishing that economic viability. It is up to the Steves to decide if my foundational assumption is correct, and what the answers to those framing questions are.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 11:31 am: Edit

Alan Trevor:

To your first point (not trying to be snarky), are you saying that I have to acknowledge you specifically each time?

I read your response. You are the individual pushing for the ship. You already obviously want it. I am asking for other input.

I have already taken the time, as noted, to look at the only other large scale data point I had immediately available in the published battle groups, and I took the time to note that since Eddie Cruchfield had taken DDLs (and BCFs) in some of his battle groups perhaps he should be enticed to comment.

It would be nice for others to comment; there are a lot of players on this board and on facebook that can be asked to comment on their own experiences.

As to your second point. Frankly that it only makes the point that the ship should not be built. The "emergency" forced use of the ship only comes up if the ship exists. If we had built a normal DDX instead, we would have had a DDX instead of the weaker DDLX and would not have the lesser margin of superiority.

And, again, I am not fanatically opposed to the ship. I am noting that there would need to be a track record of the plasma torpedo being actually useful enough that Federation Commanders wanted such ships. The Battle Group articles are the only large scale data base available, and I think they provide SOME support in that Module R10 was published in 2003, but plasma-F armed ships do not show up in battle groups until a decade later, but they do show up in Eddie Crutchfield's battle group submissions.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 11:51 am: Edit

SPP, from what I recall the majority of the battlegroup articles are set in Y175. Is this by design to exclude some ships or to include as many of the mid war designs as possible? I ask out of curiosity so that I might be able to provide more significant input into the discussion regarding a wider range of ships and/or "new" variants.

At the risk of being too repetitive I have asked for a couple of different ISC ships that could be used in certain SFB campaigns under the U rules.

I would like to see a Federation DDLX, but I see the validity of your argument against such a unit being developed.

I realize that I'm one person and as such represent a very small minority of the SFB community and an even smaller minority of the Star Fleet Games community who play both SFB and F&E.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 12:45 pm: Edit

One option could be to have a single DDLX built as a "testbed" ship, and for it to be converted into a DDX or DGX at some later point in time.

One could treat it as a partly political issue. Perhaps say that a notable Skolean representative in the Federation Assembly lobbied for one to be built, as a symbol of Federation-Gorn co-operation. But that the Gorn side of the deal soon fell through (due to the kind of shifting political sands which are noted as being commonplace in the Confederation Senate), as a new Gorn governing coalition decided against exporting any more plasma-L launchers to the Federation.

That would encourage Star Fleet to eventually convert the ship into a combat variant which could make full use of the Federation's own logistical network, thus bringing this "failed experiment" to its end.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

Non-starter.

It moves the ship into the "conjectural" category if it is not "operationally deployed," and of late policy is to avoid as much as possible publishing such ships.

Note that the FFXs in the current Captain's Log were "test-beds," but saw wider production and deployment to back X-squadrons during the Andromedan War.

If the DDLX is added to the game, it will not be "The design looked like this for test purposes but was then converted into a standard DDX" (or maybe into an SCX) "and never operationally deployed."


Thomas Mathews:

As noted, if Federation players are not taking the Federation Plasma ships, doing a DDLX is problematic. The non-X plasma ships provide a track record.

In 2003 all Federation plasma-F-armed ships got ECM plasmas, Sabot refits, and Carronades. Rules availability-wise this happened in 2003, although the Carronade function did not arrive in the Federation at the same time as in the Confederation, the Federation did get it.

It has been 13 years since the upgrade to plasma-Fs was added to the game. Time enough for Federation players to have looked at and used the technology. And I think time enough to determine a track record. If Federation players by and large consider the plasma-F-armed variants not to be useful enough to take them, that seems a powerful argument that the majority of Federation X-ship players would not appreciate being provided an SSD of an X-ship with plasma-Ls instead of some other X-ship that they actually do want.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 03:21 pm: Edit

This is the same data as before, but includes two "Speed Columns" to look at when comparing the scouts, these show the power available for lending electronic warfare (generated only, battery power is not included in these columns) when operating as pretty basic battle speeds. Note that X-ships are able to operate at higher battle speeds continuously than non-X ships.

Empire Scout Size Class Sensors Power Move Cost Speed 31* Speed 15**
Fed SCX 4 4 32 (9) 1/2 9 18
Fed GSX 3 4 46 (18) 1 7 23
Fed GVX 3 4 46 (18) 1 7 23
Fed NASX 3 4 46 (12) 1 7 23
Klingon FSX 4 4 30 (9) 1/2 7 16
Klingon D5DX 3 4 35 (9) 2/3 6 17
Klingon D5SX 3 4 37 (9) 2/3 8 19
Klingon D5PX 3 2 35 (9) 2/3 8 12 (7)†
Romulan SKSX 4 4 29 (18) 1/2 6 15
Romulan K5SX 4 4 29 (9) 1/2 6 15
Romulan SPEX 3 4 35 (9) 2/3 6 17
Romulan SPUX 3 4 35 (9) 2/3 6 17
Romulan SPCX 3 4 35 (9) 2/3 6 17
Romulan FHEX 3 4 46 (9) 1 7 23
Kzinti FDX 4 3 21 (9) 1/3 4 10
Kzinti CMDX 3 4 32 (9) 2/3 3 14
Kzinti CMSX 3 4 36 (9) 2/3 7 18
Kzinti CMPX 3 2 36 (6) 2/3 9 12 (8)†
Gorn BSX 4 4 31 (9) 1/2 8 17
Gorn HSVX 3 4 37 (6) 2/3 8 19
Gorn HDPX 3 2 38 (9) 2/3 11 12 (10)†
Gorn HDSX 3 4 38 (9) 2/3 9 20
Tholian SCX 4 4 27 (9) 1/2 4 13
Tholian CWPX 3 2 36 (9) 2/3 11 12 (8)†
Orion --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Hydran SCX 4 4 28 (9) 1/2 5 14
Hydran VDX 3 4 38 (6) 2/3 9 20
Hydran PGX 3 2 31 (6) 2/3 4 12 (3)†
Hydran MSX 3 4 39 (12) 2/3 10 21
Andro ANX 4 4 36 (36) 2/3 1 12
Andro ELX 4 4 28 (24) 1/2 4 9
Andro ELX+ 4 4 30 (24) 1/2 6 11
Lyran SCX 4 3 31 (9) 1/2 9 18
Lyran CWSX 3 4 38 (12) 2/3 9 20
Lyran CWPX 3 2 37 (9) 2/3 10 12 (9)†
WYN CWPX 3 4 38 (12) 2/3 9 20
ISC SCX 4 4 28 (12) 1/2 5 14
ISC CLSX 3 4 40 (12) 2/3 11 22
ISC PFTX 3 2 39 (9) 2/3 12 12 (11)†
LDR SCX 4 3 31 (9) 1/2 9 18
Seltorian DSX 4 4 30 (9) 1/2 7 16
Jindarian --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Vudar SCX 4 4 32 (9) 1/2 9 18
Borak SCX 4 4 32 (12) 1/2 9 18
Peladine SCX 4 4 29 (9) 1/2 6 15
Frax DSX 4 4 28 (6) 1/2 5 14

*Speed 31 assumes power allocated to move Speed 31 (Move Cost 1 = 31, Move Cost 0.67 = 21, Move Cost 0.50 = 16, Move Cost 0.33 = 11), Maintenance (Size 3 = 4, Size 4 = 2.5 rounded up to 3), and sensors charged (1 point per sensor); result is the indicated power available for use in lending electronic warfare at Speed 31. Note: Fractions are rounded up as a half point cannot be lent.

**Speed 15 assumes power allocated to move Speed 15 (Move Cost 1 = 15, Move Cost 0.67 = 10, Move Cost 0.50 = 7.5, Move Cost 0.33 = 5), Maintenance (Size 3 = 4, Size 4 = 2.5 rounded up to 3 in the case of Movement Cost 0.33, combined with the 7.5 in the case of Movement Cost 0.50), and sensors charged (1 point per sensor); result is power available for use in lending electronic warfare at Speed 15. Note: Fraction for 0.33 rounded up as a half point cannot be lent.

† Ship has only two special sensors, so while additional power is available (shown in parentheses) it is not really useable for basic lending.

Note: I added the Andromedan X-Scouts from Module C3A; Data assumes operating panels at Reinforced Levels.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 03:34 pm: Edit

I will note that the data I have gathered DOES make Alan Trevor's case that the Tholians have the worst of the X-scouts.

However, there is the age old rubric that someone has to be at the bottom (the Romulans can complain mightily that they wound up with the worst frigates for example).

Plus the Tholian ships represent the fact that more so than other empires their ship construction capabilities are limited making it somewhat more difficult for them to adapt, and this can be seen a fair representation of that background limitation.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Thomas Mathews:

It is basically a balance thing to allow as many empires to have a chance to participate without being swarmed by technological capabilities not available to them.

We want the Module C4 empires to have the opportunity to play (for example). Some of these have fast patrol ships, most do not. Pretty much none of them have mega-packs or advanced technology ships (except for the Frax in this latter case).

That also goes to the Omega Octant, which lacks X-ships and mega-packs even if they have fast patrol ships.

There is considerable doubt that the Magellanics could stand in the face of X-ships, mega-packs, and fast patrol ships (even if one empire does have its own PFs), which means opening up to these things takes them out of the picture. (Why submit a Magellanic battle group when your Eneen might wind up matched against that Gorn X-Squadron, or a Koligahr battle group that might wind up having to fight a Kzinti X-squadron, better to pick an Alpha Octant Empire that also has X-ships.)

Similar problems intrude with battle ships and dreadnoughts (even with their Bumblebees, a Maghaim squadron would be at a disadvantage against a Klingon squadron built around a C8K).

Just about everyone can handle cruisers, frigates, destroyers, and non-mega-pack mid-war fighters (some better than others, of course, but these are not quite so overwhelming as the later versions).

And also to some extent we want the battle group articles to "cross over," that is to say the basic scenario needs to be convertible to Federation Commander (and vice versa), and down the road to A Call to Arms: Star Fleet.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 05:11 pm: Edit

SPP,

To clarify, I meant to say that the lone ship would enter service, but that it would be converted into a DDX or DGX at a later (or perhaps sooner) point in its service life.

Say, that the ship, and the short-lived political deal behind it, could appear in Y183 (a year after the first DGX entered service); and that the conversion could take place in either Y187 (in the midst of the Pacification) or Y192 (when the Andromedans turned their full-scale attention on the Federation).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

And I am saying that is a non-starter.

There is no point to a single ship that later gets converted to something else because it was unsuccessful, whether the conversion takes place four years after it was built, or nine years after it was built.

There is no point in publishing the SSD and saying "Oh this ship was unsuccessful but is it not pretty to look at?"

You might do better to ask around and see if you can find players who might comment on their experience with using Plasma-armed Federation ships, particularly since 2003 and Module R10, and if they would support incorporating a few Plasma-L variant X-ships.

That at least would be a discussion on the VALUE of the ship and whether or not it should be published.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Realistically if the DDLX is to be built, you would need ~20% of the DD*Xs on the Romulan border to be worth the effort. IF the carronade is effective enough to justify production, you need enough on hand to use regularly. The numbers alone may make this unit economically unfeasible.

I like the DDLX, but I don't run enough Feds to have the experience needed to recommend production.

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 09:49 pm: Edit

One thing to note on the Tholians -- they pretty much always had only small scouts compared to the Klingons. Though the Klingons have the D6E in Y125, the D6D in Y135, D6S in Y160, and D5S in Y169, the Tholians have nothing but the SC until Y170, when they get the DDS. Which is (explicitly declared in its description to be) the biggest scout they have until they start building CWs in Y179.

And this has to be accorded as a matter of hull allocation due to production and doctrine, because it seems fairly obvious that a DDS "could have" been made in Y125 (since the DD dates to Y115 and the SC to Y125), and a cruiser-based scout as soon as the first C in Y147.

So, yeah. The Tholians have a CWX-based PFT, and a HDWX that can be given a pair of special sensors, and have to muddle through with the SCX otherwise. EW inferiority is pretty much the Tholian lot in life.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, June 25, 2016 - 10:36 pm: Edit

A thought on Tholian scouts: Worst scout for the Tholians may not be the worst thing if you consider the big picture. I'm not sure about the numbers but I'll bet they probably have the highest density of scouts inside their empire than anyone else. Smallest/worst also means easier replacement.
In the late war and X era's EW inferiority may be balanced by web/web casters as far as open space combat effectiveness goes. One can cast web to block fire from some in order to focus EW on others.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, June 27, 2016 - 06:37 pm: Edit

As noted, the principle argument in favor of giving the Tholians a CWSX are the same as giving the Vudar a CWSX. (It would also apply to giving the Paravians, Carnivons, Borak and Peladine such ships, but as their whole fleets are conjectural that can be ignored for the sake of this discussion, and the Frax, but as they are a simulator empire . . . well that is more questionable since the cost to do so is largely just software.)

According to the data, the Fed SCX seems like it can hold its own as an electronic warfare platform against most empire's war cruiser scouts. But remember some of those have more reserve power and greater drone throw-weight.

The Tholians did field a CWS (in Y179), which the Vudar do not currently seem to have done, so Tholian EW inferiority is not "the Tholian lot in life." Having a CWS, and a CWX does open the door for discussion and request, it is just that, as noted, does everyone have to have such a ship?

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, June 27, 2016 - 07:26 pm: Edit

As an LDR player, I would have to say that the doctrine for both the LDR and Tholians makes a CWXS unlikely. Both Empires tend to be defensive in nature, largely relying on bases at key defensive points. X-ships are pricey and rare, producing a CWXS would be a significant allocation of resources, likely meaning that your one CWXS is in the wrong place when you need it. If either Empire was planing offensive operations, such a unit would be far more justified.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, June 27, 2016 - 11:40 pm: Edit

Adm,

I'm going to have to disagree a little bit. The Tholians are on the overall strategic defensive, of course. But that doesn't mean they should defend Holdfast space solely by hunkering down behind webs, like some sort of Maginot Line. They also need to be able to attack, or at least threaten, Klingon (or Romulan or Seltorian or Andromedan) assets operating in Tholian space (but well away from any Tholian bases), or logistics nodes supporting those operations from the fringes of Tholian space. That's what a CWSX is for; supporting these short-ranged, short-duration, limited offensives; which are conducted not to capture and hold territory but to disrupt enemy offensives. You don't use the CWSX to defend a Tholian BATS. You use it as part of a rapid strike force to destroy the enemy's BATS or FRD park.

I believe this capability is particularly important against the Seltorians or Andromedans, both of whom have technology that partially negates the Tholian fixed defenses.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, June 28, 2016 - 12:08 am: Edit

Thvrm; Fair point. The only serious war that the LDR fought after being founded was against the Andromedans, and it ended very quickly.

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Tuesday, June 28, 2016 - 02:09 am: Edit

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Quote:

The Tholians did field a CWS (in Y179), which the Vudar do not currently seem to have done, so Tholian EW inferiority is not "the Tholian lot in life."

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By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, June 28, 2016 - 02:36 am: Edit

Economic wise, the Tholian production of XTPs was very small.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, June 28, 2016 - 09:47 am: Edit

Richard Eitzen,

True, but the question is how to most cost-effectively spend that small number of XTPs. Are they better off adding one more CWX (which is the weakest (also the least expensive) X-cruiser the Tholians have)? Or would they be better off spending them on a CWSX, which would be the strongest scout they could build?

I've also been thinking about SPP's comment from his 1:17 PM post on 25 June.

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Quote:

... that seems a powerful argument that the majority of Federation X-ship players would not appreciate being provided an SSD of an X-ship with plasma-Ls instead of some other X-ship that they actually do want.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, June 28, 2016 - 09:51 am: Edit

By the way, although Richard Eitzen is correct that the Tholians produce few XTPs in absolute numbers, I seem to recall that a larger percentage of their total economy is XTPs - compared to most other empires. Am I recalling correctly? If so, the Tholians might have a larger percentage of their total fleet strength as X-ships, even if the absolute number of X-ships is small.