Archive through July 28, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module Y4 (the new one):
Archive through July 28, 2019
Just want to note Gary's suggestion for an Early Paravian Raid Mothership: http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/12031/39557.html?1556225984
While he is worried about Omega implications, I just think it'd be a cool addition to the next EY module. Didn't want to forget about it.
Don't want to forget about the Tellarites, either ...
http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/12031/22490.html?1563780480
For what it may be worth, I also suggested looking at the Mars National Guard over in the Module Y4 discussion thread, and wondered about a set of pre-Orion pirates in ISC space over in this thread. Someone might have mentioned the early Vudar in the old Y4 thread, too.
Also, in light of Module C6's publication, one could perhaps add a scenario or two set in either of the "Mapsheet P" timelines listed in that volume, to show what happened once those "lost empire" Paravians stumbled into the Inter-Stellar Concordium in alt-Y110.
Oh, one other possibility mentioned in the Module Y4 thread is a "generic" Barbarian-style set of ships that can be used to model emergent and soon-to-be-conquered empires. That could be fun, too.
Mike, Gary: One of you go dig through the old Y3 topic and summarize anything that wasn't in Y3 and put that in this topic. Includes notes if I or SPP rejected the non-included item. If you want, split it up and each of you do half.
There is Early Years material for certain simulator empires, such as the Barbarians and the Frax, in both Captain's Log #42 and the CL42 Supplemental File.
EDIT: I posted this before SVC's latest reply, but this was also noted in the old Y4 thread: I was wondering if one or more of the "quarantined" species noted in Prime Directive Federation, such as the Wasp People of Vereb IV, might make for a challenging encounter to deal with. (Of those, the Yeney are stuck at non-tactical warp, so might be best kept in reserve as an "encounter" opponent until or unless a "sub-light" product be considered at some point. On the other hand, one could perhaps speculate on what any sort of warp-refitted Yeney ships might look like.)
SUMMARY OF ITEMS FROM OLD Y4 TOPIC
AUGUST 4-6 2010
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TELLARITES: Sure, they can be included. Would have been in Y3 if anybody had asked in time. I have seen four different proposals by players for what their ships are like, but I'm not sure any of them fit the background in Prime Directive. Proton torpedoes? Sure, whatever.
Someone said: Based on the data in CL #25, there could be something between Tellarite, Orion, and Andorian ships. Andorians hate Tellarites... and Tellarites have close ties to Orion piracy....
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EARLY PELADINE: sure, no problemo.
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EARLY JINDARIANS
Some thing we don't need to do anything, just use what you have. Others think they should have phaser-2s and a downgraded heavy weapon. I'm open either way, but won't waste time printing it unless players want to buy it. They are, we all know, grossly over powered for Early Years. Balance, children, balance. They can never be balanced as there is no way to downgrade rock armor, but then, they don’t fight like normal empires, either.
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EARLY FIGHTERS
There are not going to be any. The Kzinti AAS (Y164) and Hydran Stinger-1 (Y134) are the first, nothing could be done "lower", and that is all post-EY anyway.
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SENTIENT RACES IN KZINTI SPACE
None of them had ships beyond an early Free Trader.
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Terry O'Carroll said: IIRC SPP did an article on Romulan pre-tactical-warp fighters and bombers in Captain's Log. The information included the fact that everyone had these laser-armed units, but once everyone else figured out how to build phasers, they fell out of use because a speed-1 laser-armed fighter is worthless against phaser-armed ships, and ground-based phasers for defense are adequate. In fact, the only reason such units were viable for the Romulans in the tactical warp era is that IIRC they had seeking plasma. So basically, the history agrees with MJW, sublight fighters are really module Q material and during the EY period only the Romulans were using fighters and bombers.
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Steve Petrick resonded: Everyone had lasers, but only the Romulans, Gorns, and Paravians developed Warp-Targeted lasers. Everyone else went from lasers to phasers without the interim Warp-Targeted laser step.
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The Jindarians appear to be hiding from something.
SVC says he has no idea where this theory comes from and is not aware they are hiding from anyone or any thing.
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Richard Eitzen: I'd like to see the original Hydran sublight ships converted to warp technology that were considered 'terrible'.
SVC: Sure, I guess.
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Robert Cole: Early Monitors would be my first request.
SVC: Sure, I guess.
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Other Fed Member Races without ships: Cygnans, Brecon, Prellarians, Mynieni, Deians, and Arcturians.... (The Mynieni would allow for a really weird ship design....)
SVC: Do we really need that many, or any?
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Phil Shanton: What I'd really like to see is a bunch of minor races with unique weapons, who battled the Federation in it's early years, but who later gave up and joined them due too one thing or another (get a better trade deal, protection from the klingons, romulans, kzinti, ect.).
SVC: Well, maybe one or two.
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Steve Ehrbar: By the way, Y1 mentions that there were Early Years Vudar-Klingon and Vudar-Hydran clashes, and PD Klingons says the Vudar weren't contacted until Y76. So, Y4 could cover EY Vudar.
SVC: Sure, I guess.
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NOTES FROM THE OLD Y4 TOPIC
6 AUG 2010 THROUGH 12 FEB 2011
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MIKE WEST: PROTON torpedoes, not photon torpedoes. Proton torpedoes are basically one-turn photons. They take 2 points to arm and can fire every turn and do four points of damage. They are the perfect EY weapon, as they have all of the disadvantages of photons AND disruptors. It is easy to see why the Federation would junk the weapon outclassed by disruptors and pick the weapon with more crunch. The are an obvious alternative path in the photon development tree.
I don't want mini- or maxi- photons. They are a totally different paradigm that can safely be ignored for the Federation.
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SOMEONE: On the Jindos, I still think that with their inclusion in the Y2 MSC, their EY status is pretty much set.
SVC: Not if we decide it's not pretty much set. Or maybe we will decide it is pretty much set.
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Mike West: On the Vudar, realize that they were probably non-tactical warp at best when discovered by the Klingons. They were probably steamrollered with little resistance. But I agree that is no fun. I would definitely like to see some W-era ships that would give the Klingons and Hydrans some challenges.
SVC: Remember that the Vudar history you all remember is the Klingon myth, but that doesn't mean the Klingons didn't brutally conquer them sometime during EY.
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Mike W: For the Peladine, they had one Early Years ship (or something like that). They would have to be either completely conjectural, or their published history would have to change. So, while I think it would be cool to include a Peladine Y-fleet, I just don't see it happening. I would love to be wrong.
SVC: Sometimes published history turns out to be a simplified version of a more complicated story.
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Steve Ehrbar: According to YR17.0 in Y1, the Vudar had "clashes" with both the Hydrans and the Klingons. That suggests both the ability to resist and a degree of spread in order to encounter both, not just get steamrollered. Which would mean at least NTW ships able to target warp ships with their weapons, a la the Romulans.
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Gary Carney: A conjectural ISC YBB would be nice.
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Gary Carney, if there was the time (and inclination) to do so, I'd really like to see if something interesting could be worked up for the pre-Orion ISC pirates, to help give the unified Navy something more deal with.
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Gary Carney: Could the Paravians get a conjectural Y-variant of the Raid Mothership from SSJ2?
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Xander F: Could the Peladine be expanded somewhat from just one ship? Maybe not a full fleet (all the way to dreadnought), but a few W-era-like ships and maybe a couple of Y-ships (maybe just a cruiser and few destroyers) would be enough to be a meaningful product contribution.
SVC: I think any contribution should be meaningful.
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Xander F, Tellarites: Given their position on the Eastern border of Federation space, I still think a plasma bolt-like weapon makes the most sense of them. Perhaps a bolt-only G-torp on their ships. This provides more variety in the W-era Federation ships, and also explains the willingness of the Federation to experiment with plasma weapons (these bought from the Gorn) during the General War.
SVC: plausible.
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Mike Strain: If we can get the Tellarites into Y4, I think the 'best' weapon for them would be the Plasma Cannon from Y2. It's short-ranged, crappy, has the same power curve/arming cycle as a photon, and is crappy. Plus, it just FEELS 'Tellarity'.
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Skoleans: I don't think they need their own ships.
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Deians had some kind of ships as PD says they had colonized nearby star systems before Fed contact.
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Cygnans: Preview appeared in Captain's Log #24. Shame they are another 'early Federation' race that uses Photons, but they DO show up pretty late in the period, so maybe that makes sense. The 'modular' nature of their ships seems interesting, anyway. Somewhat limiting play opportunities, in that they historically only fought the Kzinti. Still, a good candiate for Y4.
Given they were apparently 'seeded' by a more advanced race (and thus one of the reasons for their opposition to the Prime Directive being their belief it's their duty to go out and share their technology, as it was shared with them), and only conquered by the Kzinti as recently as Y70...could they have had some indigenous pre-Federation-contact designs? (That would be even more different...a race whose W-era hulls have literally nothing in common at all with the following Y-era design)--Xander F
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Please don't forget the Klingon E2 from a recent CL.
OK, hopefully Gary's pass on the old Y3 topic will find something I missed. This list is very short:
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Some kind of menace for the Early ISC.
I figure this is not possible due to "warp==peace", but it was mentioned.
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SPP mentioned a "mini-tug" version of the Tholian Command Module that uses packs as its pods. I think that'd be great to see!
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The ineffective Veltrassai WSR was mentioned.
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Peladine were also mentioned (as they are above). With this many mentions, I figure they are both locks. Especially since SVC even said that our understanding of what the Peladine had pre-conquest could have been a simplification.
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Tellarites (again)
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Empire specific Q-ships. This would take multiple SSDs, as they wouldn't be option-mount based, but actual individual empire-specific designs to use their weapons.
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Finally, on a different point, I would very much like if the sequence that walked through the creation of the counter sheet could be preserved as that was pretty instructive on what goes into the creation of those counter sheets.
More items:
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Federation Early GSC. Basically a GSC style ship built on a YCA hull. It would be a unique ship that served as the prototype for the eventual GSC. It would have two special sensors provided and maintained by the Vulcans (which is why it would be unique).
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Federation Early Starliner pod. Their one non-cargo pod in the Early Years.
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Kzinti Early Heavy Cruiser. Dropped from Y3 to make room for the YFT. It would be a late YIS ship that mounts two disruptors. Their first standard warship with disruptors that serves as a bridge to the CS and later CA.
The ISC member races early command cruisers.
Oh, one more: Borak. Granted, they won't get all of their toys (if any of them), but they should be able to be represented like the Peladine, if so desired. That's the potential for another whole fleet.
And when talking about fleets, here's what I mean:
WDN, WCC, WCA, WCL, WDD, WFF, WCMO, WSR, YBB, YDN, YCC, YCA, YCL, YDD, YFF, YTug, YCMO, YSR, Dock, Base, Grnd Base, Pods.
That basically covers a full EY fleet without empire-specific ships (e.g. D4J or D4N). Obviously, not every fleet has every one of these (and some have more with their empire-specific ships), but that is probably the base checklist.
So, both the Peladine and the Borak would hopefully track to that list. Maybe only the W-series; maybe both. The Vudar would probably only have a subset of the W-series because they were conquered so early. It also helps to see if any established empires are "missing" anything that should be considered.
Quote:SPP mentioned a "mini-tug" version of the Tholian Command Module that uses packs as its pods. I think that'd be great to see!
Rather than using packs as pods I would suggest using a modified collar (a "Cargo Collar" with all of the systems removed). With its ability to dock to collars, an unmodified Command Module is already a ready-to-use tug. Since collars have docking ports both forward and aft (to attach to the command module and aft hall respectively) you might even be able to dock multiple collars to each other, end-to-end, or you could "stretch" a collar to make a larger pod. Makes for a more interesting ship IMHO.
I am pretty sure collars had not been invented yet in the Early Years. It'll pretty much have to be a pack for this.
Collars are from the Old Galaxy. Even if the Tholians didn't bring any with them I doubt they would be difficult to build since they are not ships, just a hull section with a docking port at either end.
No collars before the Neos arrive!
Some Neos did arrive with the Dyson Sphere (2 NDD, 4NFF, and 2 COM) and it's been established that the Tholians could build more COMs in the Early Years.
I just don't see why they would modify a COM to carry packs when it already has the ability to dock to a collar. Why reinvent the wheel? The COM is already a mini-tug.
A guess on my part, Douglas, but maybe the designs are just too different?
The PC was, in the Old Galaxy, a Police Ship. The NDD and NFF, on the other hand, were military ships.
Modern Coast Guard (multi-role) Cutters are expected to participate in search-and-rescue, hazardous materials containment, law enforcement, and all sorts of other operations Naval ships aren't expected to, and they have specialized gear on board to help accomplish those missions.
Maybe for the Tholians, the ability for their Police PCs to carry those packs is just one of a myriad of aspects like that, which aren't a part of the Game.
At any rate, modifying the COMs to carry them might not seem worthwhile to the Tholians, who were suffering from a lack of high end engineers at the time, and likely didn't want to take (what were for them) such high quality combat units out of operation for a potentially risky modification.
This is, of course, just a guess on my part...
I agree that Tholian engineers had better things to do than modifying a Command Module to do the same thing it can already do, just in a different way (carrying a pack instead of a collar).
I suppose it might simplify logistics if the “Command Module Mini-Tug” uses the same packs as the PCs. However, that didn’t stop the Tholians (later in the timeline) from using Federation Pods in addition to packs. Collars vs. Packs may be an analogous situation since CoM collars appear to have greater volume (on the basis of internals) than packs allowing the Mini-Tug to haul larger cargoes. If collars could be "stretched" or stacked end-to-end the difference would be even greater.
I am assuming that the Tholians would have used the original CoMs they brought from the Home Galaxy as their mini-tugs (after removing the webcasters) since the new construction YCoMs were built without docking systems (in order to make space for other systems).
Hey all (and I am calling myself out on this, too):
Let's just put ideas here for now, and not have long arguments on specific items. The next Y module is no where to be seen on the current schedule and the only way to try and fix that is to make sure it can be filled with quality ships. Please do put a counter argument in, but then let it go. We can have the full discussions once this thing becomes a real threat to actually be done.
Thanks!
I remain an advocate for a single-sheet "NTW freighter convoy" to reflect the number of non-tactical-warp freighters that remained in use even as of the Original Series episodes. Given their primitive stats and capabilities, a multi-ship sheet makes the most sense (a la PFs or the passes at some of the carrier/escort combos).
As to the 'big 3 Empires' - I think the Y4 topic had also some ideas for one or another Romulan house trying to boost its status or something by building ludicrous-sized warships using their 'best technology' (*cough*). IE., the sort of "prestige project" that ends up too big to actually effectively use (and too big to convert to tactical warp technology when it came out, so the thing lived out its life just parked at some house's capital city). Or maybe even harken back to the pre-WW1 SMS Blucher and not even be completed until the GW-era...IE., finished building after every technological advance it included was already obsolete.
The PC and the COM are very different shapes. The PC hulls have fins and the packs are (likely) shaped to fit into the grooves between the fins. The COM is shaped more like a doorstop - ie. no fins - and the flat bottom doesn't really give the packs suitable place to latch on (plus the phasers are on the bottom of the COM).
Thank you, Mike, and well put. 
What would "I" like to see in module Y4? Been thinkin' about it, and the only real thought in my (alleged) mind is that the Early Years are pretty complete as-is. The only things I've been able to imagine that might be addressed is what did the various powers have BEFORE the Warp Refitted ships?
I remember (probably inaccurately) something about a proposed "Module Q" that's supposed to give us the earliest years; years before tactical warp had even been invented (except, of course, for Jindarians and some of the Omega folks), but the only things I can recall about it now is that it was mentioned SO long ago that, even if it WERE a real idea, it's probably long been abandoned. 
Quote:The next Y module is no where to be seen on the current schedule and the only way to try and fix that is to make sure it can be filled with quality ships.
I'm just saying, like...Module Y4 Let's DOOOOO it - YEEEEEEAAAAH! 