Hydran Auxiliary CVs were remarked upon by Michael Campbell, who noted that since others used drone-fighters the hydrans had to spend power to rearm their AuxVs and we should give them a ship with more APRs or something. This idea went nowhere quickly, but I'll go ahead and restate it here. However, I would do it as a generic carrier for everyone to use with fighters that need power to arm.

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Petrick Comment:

Hydran Auxiliary Carriers generally operate either Stinger-Fs (which mount a phaser-G which lets them destroy a drone and still hit an enemy fighter with two or three phaser-3 shots, and do not otherwise have any weapons other than their pod rails) and do not need the auxiliary carrier to have extra power systems to rearm them.

Hydran Auxiliary Carriers are prohibited from operating Stinger-Hs (just as Kzinti, Klingon, Lyran, and LDR auxiliary carriers are prohibited from operating disruptor-armed fighters).

Hydran Auxiliary Carriers might operate Stinger-2s, and if they do, they will have standard Stinger-2 ready racks.

Stinger-2 ready racks at any Weapon Status greater than "surprised" (which is lower than Weapon Status Zero) always have two (2) complete sets of charges for the fighter (partial exception, at most weapon statuses two fighters are already armed and that part of their ready rack would be empty).

A small Auxiliary Carrier can fully arm its 12 Stinger-2 fighters, and would then have a complete set of reloads for the fighters without expending any energy. (Same applies to a Large Auxiliary Carrier.) It need expend no energy arming ready racks for a second strike; it already has the reloads. It can be reasonably expected that not all of the fighters would survive the first strike. Say 25% did not. That means that three of the fighters returning from the second strike could be reloaded at those three ready racks, and if another 25% of the squadron did not survive the second strike, it means the carrier would over the preceding turns have only had to find 12 points of energy to rearm half the fusion capacitors in three ready racks to launch the six remaining fighters on the third strike fully armed. It would, following this pattern, again need 12 points of power to rearm the last three fighters for the fourth strike. But again, typically these ships operate Stinger-Fs, and Stinger-2s can fight as Stinger-Fs if there is no energy available to rearm the fusion capacitors after a strike is launched, and an opponent would not know which Stingers had their fusion beams armed and which did not, but would know all of them had phaser-Gs.

Beyond that, you could claim that the plasma empires need more power because they require 0.5 points of energy to activate any plasma-Ds on the fighter ready racks. That can be as much as 24 points of power for a Squadron of Gladiator-Ds (or Gorn G-12Ds, or ISC FDFs), or just 12 points of power for a squadron of Gladiator-Fs (or Gorn G-8s, or ISC AFs). Admittedly even this can be paid over time as the plasma-Ds can be activated while loaded in the ready racks. But at low weapon status any carrier has to come up with the energy to arm these, while a Hydan carrier has loaded fusion charges ready to go. So the plasma empires have more of a claim to needing more power on their auxiliary carriers than the Hydrans do, especially as at a low weapon status (Zero or one) they would need four points of power to activate the plasma-Ds on their plasma-D racks, while the Hydrans need just two points for their phaser-Gs in the same position (assuming they were already energized). There is more to this plasma-D rack situation, of course.

Turning to Heavy Fighter auxiliary carriers, all of these have problems arming the heavy weapons of the heavy fighters, but here again the Hydrans have an advantage as the fusion capacitors still have double charges, and still take only one point per to arm each, and the hellbore takes only two points a turn for two turns to arm, comparable to the power needed to load two disruptor charges, after the first charge is loaded.

So, no, I do not think the Hydran auxiliary carriers have some special power needs over other empires.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 01, 2019 - 08:18 pm: Edit

That analysis assumes a certain loss of Hydran fighters which might not always be the case. I'm not saying add 6 or 12 power to an aux carrierr but perhaps 2 or 4 would be doable (and would help out in the case of the other examples you listed).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 01, 2019 - 09:25 pm: Edit

Richard Eitzen:

Okay, in your experience how often have you recovered the entire strike group to rearm them, and needed to?

I will admit to having recovered drone-armed fighters that managed to launch their drones from long range, but Hydran fighters have to get close and take losses, or are recovered with their charges unexpended.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 01, 2019 - 10:01 pm: Edit

In Federation and Empire I've done that many times.

In SFB I never have (never played with a Hydran aux carrier that I recall), but generally in SFB fights are 'fair', while in 'reality' and in F&E not as much.

I've played a rather large amount of SFB back in the day, across most empires (Alpha, Y, Omega, Magellanic, C4) so I feel like I have at least some idea of what CAN happen in SFB.

All that being said, I don't really have any other arguments to offer off the top of my head, so if you still feel it is unwarranted, that's something I can certainly live with.

By Allen Ferelli (Ender_Xenocide) on Thursday, August 01, 2019 - 11:02 pm: Edit

If played correctly, Hydran squadrons almost never are able to return fully intact to fully rearm. If you are facing them in SFB it is something that must be made top priority to prevent.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 05:50 am: Edit

Well I have many times played a Hydran Ranger/Dragoon combo. I like to launch the fighters early and fire there fusions at range 10. Followed up with my helores from the dragoon.

Depending on my opponent and what impulse it is. I will either pull in the fighters to rearm and run away. Are wait for my opponent to close using the Gats in defense.

Now of course the AUX carrier would not be close enough to pull the fighters in to reload them any way. They are expendable and the pilots can hope we win the battle and will be picked up in there survival pods latter.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 11:56 am: Edit

Richard Eitzen,

Agreed that there will be uneven battles in "reality" as opposed to SFB scenarios that you play out. But uneven battles will not require rearming stingers from an AuxCV more than once.

If the Hydrans are advantaged, then the enemy explodes or disengages prior to there being enough time to recover and rearm fighters twice.

If the enemy is advantaged, then the AuxCV explodes or disengages prior to there being enough time to recover and rearm fighters twice.

Either way, one set of reloads is probably one more than you need, and is certainly adequate.

I'm really not seeing what SFB engagement will require more than two full sets of charges from an AuxCV. Maybe a base assault where the base is lightly armed and you are firing from range 10, but even then, the AuxCV has to remain at relatively long range and doesn't need to move all that quickly, so I'm not sure there's a power shortage.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Stingers are not always used to charge in close to the target where they'll get killed.

In some situations more caution can be used to reduce losses by using them for range 10 strikes. This may take more time and require multiple volleys which would require potentially multiple rearming of the Stingers.

Beware of absolutes like 'XXX always happens' when arguing these sorts of things.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Richard B. Eitzen:

Oh I agree, but it does not justify adding power systems to the Hydran AuxVs. If it did, it would justify adding power systems to every Hydran ship that operates Stinger fighters.

As has been noted, every ship equipped to operate Stinger-2 fighters has two "free" loadings (J4.831) at every weapon status but complete surprise (D18.16). More power will not increase the speed at which the deck crews can load the charges into the fighters' fusion beams, and again every ship with the fighters can complain that it needs more power to be available to refill the fusion capacitors.

So, I am not buying this. Your mileage may vary, but I have so far not seen anything that changes my current thoughts on the matter.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 02:10 pm: Edit

A simple fix for AuxVs, you can replace half the fighters with APRs for X BPVs.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Was also thinking of a 4 APR / 8 Fighter runt torpedo squadron.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Ah, but SPP, most ships that carry Stingers have a much power to stinger ratio than Aux carriers do. Those ships don't need more, a Hydran unrefitted LN (if it needs to) can spare power to rearm freezers and still maneuver much more easily than an Aux carrier can. The LN doesn't have any real need for more power to do this sort of thing (nor would most Hydran units carrying Stingers).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Hydran Ranger: 30 Warp, Four Impulse, Three APR: 37 power.

Housekeeping: 4, leaves 33.

Arm one (1) loading of four fusion charges each for nine Stinger-1 fighters: 36 points of power.

Gee. I guess it will need more power.

Yes, I know, you can partly load some fusion charges over several turns rather than all at once leaving you power on any given turn to move, arm weapons (including maybe some shuttle hijinks) and electronic warfare also reloading the batteries when they are used, reinforcing shields, repairing shields, and electronic warfare, plus possible tractor and transporter operations.

But again, I have not seen anything that justifies a Hydran AuxV getting more power.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 03:22 pm: Edit

That's not a good comparison.

A RN has the power to arm all the freezers, even if it is impractical to do it.

But an SAV has 12 fighters and would require 48 power, of which it doesn't even have half.

In any case, to reload a full ship of stingers, you don't have to do all 8 charges per fighter, 4 each is enough, so 18 power for an RN (which can do this) or 24 for an SAV (which cannot).

I am not, however, saying an SAV should be able to do this. I'm just saying a couple more points of power would help and probably wouldn't break the game, nor would it justify increasing power on non aux carriers.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Richard B. Eitzen:

And it is an auxiliary, not a front line warship and is supposed to operate Stinger-Fs not Stinger-2s.

And your math is off (sorry).

A Stinger has four charges, each requiring a point of power, so four points per fighter to arm it completely, and thus 36 points as I noted to complete one of the two full loadings of a Ranger with Stinger-1s. To completely arm the fusion freezers/capacitors (which can hold two complete loadings) would take 72 points of power. 18 points only half arms the fighters (two charges per).

So, again, I do not really see the problem as the AuxV will either be on the winning side or the losing side by the time it has placed all the charges, and it is a far better condition (as I also noted) than the AuxVs of the plasma empires.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 03:58 pm: Edit

It's been a long time, thought they were 0.5 each to charge.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Richard B. Eitzen:

Human, all of us, and thus imperfect and subject to error and I am hardly the one to cast the first stone.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 02, 2019 - 06:34 pm: Edit

I might be more persuaded that the Hydran AuxV needs power except that as noted it typically operates Stinger-Fs, which only need power if you are equipping them with phaser-pods (it is an option) and if they did not have two free loadings irrespective of weapon status (except "surprise" as noted) if operating Stinger-2s. And the simple fact as noted that the plasma empires are far, far worse off at the lower weapons status.

At Weapon Status Zero a plasma AuxV with Gladiator-F fighters (or G-8s, or A-Fs) would have four (4) plasma-Ds armed (those on the "ready fighters") and not only will the other 20 plasma-Ds on the fighter ready racks (assuming no EWF) not be energized and require 20 points of power, but the eight plasma-Ds in the two plasma-D racks will not be energized, requiring the ship (to fully arm everything) to come up with 28 points of power. While a Hydran AxVL with Stinger-2s simply has to have the 12-16 deck crews start loading fusion charges into the 10 fighters (again assuming no EWF) that are not currently armed.

This same status prevails on a plasma AuxVL and a Hydran AuxVL at WS-I.

At WS-II a plasma-AuxV can have all of the plasma-Ds on its fighters armed and ready [12 Deck Crews completing two turns of actions (we are still assuming plasma-D armed fighters with only two plasma-Ds each), and under (FP9.22) any plasma-Ds loaded on fighters are considered to be armed], but only one plasma-D in each plasma-D rack is armed, requiring six points of energy to arm the remaining plasma-Ds in the racks. And it will also need to come up with 24 points of power (assuming no EWF) to arm the plasma-Ds for the next turn around of fighters (or 48 points if the fighters are the types with four plasma-Ds each), while the Hydran AuxVL still has that free reload.

WS-III the plasma-AxVL is basically better off than the Hydran AuxVL because even if the fighters are Gladiator-Ds (four plasma-Ds each) they are fully armed and the plasma-Ds are activated, and the plasma-Ds in the plasma-D racks are activated. But in such a case (Gladiator-Ds) the ship has to come up with 48 points of energy to arm the reload plasma-Ds for the fighters (assuming no EWF) the same as the Hydran AuxVL with Stinger-2s FOR THE THIRD RELOAD, and needs to have come up with eight points of power on top of that for activating reload plasma-Ds in the plasma-D racks (the Hydran only needs two points of power for the phaser-Gs).

So, no, I do not see adding power to the Hydran Auxiliary. It is meant to be operating Stinger-Fs, and if operating Stinger-2s has two complete loadings at no cost.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, August 03, 2019 - 01:44 am: Edit

What about cargo boxes? Don’t drone fighters use more cargo space than Hydran fighters on auxes?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 03, 2019 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Colonel Strong:

Auxiliary carriers, whether Federation (drone using), Gorn (plasma-D using), or Tholian (neither), whether small or large (heavy and jumbo do have cargo boxes in the non-carrier support pods), do not have cargo boxes. So they are not carrying their fighter stores (whether drones, plasma-D torpedoes, plasma-K torpedoes, warp booster packs, fighter pods, spare fighters) in cargo boxes and have no cargo boxes to convert to APRs.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, August 03, 2019 - 01:31 pm: Edit

I wonder how that works. After Y175, I assume an SAV might have 12 fighters each carrying 3 spaces worth of drones. So when not on ready racks that would be 9 x 12 = 72 spaces of drones on the ship *somewhere*. I wonder where they fit all that.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, August 03, 2019 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Richard: "when not on ready racks that would be 9 x 12 = 72 spaces of drones on the ship *somewhere*. I wonder where they fit all that."

See rule (FD2.443) and Annex 7G and/or 7N.


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 03, 2019 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Richard B. Eitzen:

First, the drone rails on the fighters carried are irrelevant. A carrier has set drone storage given in Annex #7G [which in this case would send you to (R1.13) and I am assuming a Federation AuxCVL]. Whether the small auxiliary carrier in question is operating (I am assuming no EWF in both cases for simplicity) a dozen F-8s (24xtype-I drone rails) or a dozen F-18s (24xtype-I drone rails and 24xtype-VI drone rails), the carrier only carries 200 spaces of drones for its fighters (the drone racks are not part of this storage). You can increase the number of drones in the fighter storage with Commander's option points by buying "extra drones," including buying a multi-role shuttle, but the type of fighter carried has no effect on the number of drones carried for the fighters. In the case of a squadron of F-8s, that means there are 176 drones in the storage and 24 either loaded on two of the fighters (the ready fighters) and or on the fighter ready racks. In the case of the F-18s, that means 164 spaces in storage and 36 spaces either loaded on two of the fighters (the ready fighters) and or on the fighter ready racks. But the total number of drone spaces remains 200. So the drone storage is set and already explained in the rules how it works.

They are stored in same place they are stored on any other dedicated carrier. The drones for a fighter squadron of a drone armed empire, whether the carrier in question is a lowly escort carrier on a frigate hull, or a mighty battleship carrier on a battleship hull, or, yes, an auxiliary carrier, is stored under (FD2.443) and is destroyed when the last shuttle box on the given carrier is destroyed. Or are you calling for every drone (and plasma-D) using carrier to be fitted with cargo boxes for their fighter stores so that their storage is lost with the cargo boxes, the most common hit on the Damage Allocation Chart (dice rolls of "7" in the A column)?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, August 03, 2019 - 02:48 pm: Edit

I was just wondering how much space those drones physically take and where on the ship they'd be? Presumably close to the hangers (or in the hangers)?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 03, 2019 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Richard B. Eitzen:

(FD2.43) STOCKPILE: All ships are presumed to carry one complete set of reloads (i.e., drones equal to the number of spaces held by all of their racks). In addition, certain ships that operate fighters carry extra drones to equip these fighters; see Annex #7G. Drones carried by fighters or launched from drone racks are identical. Ships can purchase extra drones as part of the Commander’s Options (S3.2), but may only purchase drones that they can launch from their drone racks and/or ADD racks. See (FD2.44) for an explanation of storage and (FD2.45) for an explanation of costs. See (K2.65) for PFTs. Reload drones may not be placed in the drone racks or launch rails of any unit [exception: Scatterpacks (FD7.212)] before the beginning of a scenario except as specified in a special scenario rule.

(FD2.443) In the storage facility for the fighters (if the ship is a carrier), see (J4.824), or PFs (if the ship is a PFT), see (K2.65). Non-carriers with drone-armed MRS shuttles will also have this type of storage. This cannot exceed the specified loading and is destroyed with the last shuttle box. This fighter reload storage is automatically refilled from the drones in cargo boxes (if any). Extra drones purchased under (S3.2) can be added to this type of storage in excess of its capacity (but do not increase its capacity). In the case of carrier tugs, there are separate such facilities in each hangar pod.
(FD2.444) In the shuttle bay loaded on a fighter, scatter-pack, MRS shuttle, other shuttle, or ready rack. These drones cannot exceed the capacity of what they are loaded on and are destroyed along with whatever they are loaded on (or in).
(FD2.4441) Drones in the process of being loaded onto (or into) a system (rack, shuttle, etc.) are destroyed with that system, as are drones in the process of being unloaded from a system. This is irrespective of the size of the drone (or drones) being loaded or unloaded.
(FD2.4442) These systems (fighter ready racks, etc.) can be reloaded from the drone rack reload storage (FD2.442) or fighter reload storage (FD2.443).

(J4.7) SUPPLIES FOR FIGHTERS

Carriers that operate fighters carrying drones are presumed to have a supply of drones on board. These drones are used to rearm the ship’s fighters. The Kzinti CV has 150 "spaces" of spare drones for its fighters. The drone storage capacity of other carriers (in other products) is shown in Annex #7G (in Module J or Advanced Missions). The drone loadouts are purchased under the requirements and limitations of (FD2.45), (J4.23), and (FD10.6); extra drones can be purchased under (S3.2) to increase the pool of available drones. The supplies listed here are included in the BPV of the carrier and do not have to be purchased separately.

(J4.71) STORED DRONES: Stored drones (including those in the ready racks) are kept inert by having their detonators removed. They will not explode and do not increase the strength of the ship’s final explosion.

(J4.72) READY RACKS: Drones held in ready racks (J4.89) or loaded on the fighters count as part of the ship’s storage under Annex #7G (or others). Drones in ready racks will not explode or constitute an armed fighter for chain reaction purposes (D12.0). Drones on a fighter will not contribute to the explosion, but do make the fighter vulnerable to chain reactions.

(J4.75) SUPPLIES: Carriers have various types of expendable supplies for their fighters. See (J4.621) for supplies carried by escorts and casual carriers. These supplies are in the same (D16.0) area as the shuttle bay.
(J4.751) A carrier is presumed to carry enough chaff pods (D11.2) to reload each of its fighters three times.
(J4.752) A fully-capable carrier has two EW pods for each of its fighters although most of these will probably be used by the two-seat EW fighter.
(J4.753) See (J5.42) for data on warp booster pack storage.
(J4.754) Extra supplies can be purchased as Commander’s Options (S3.2).

(J4.822) Each shuttle box that originally contained a fighter that can carry drones is presumed to have a "ready rack" to store reloads. This is a mechanical assembly that could be considered a cross between a gun rack and a forklift.
(J4.8221) The drones are loaded onto the rack, which then lifts the drones into position so that they can be loaded on the fighter. Fighters cannot have drones reloaded unless these drones are already stored in the ready rack; exception: (J4.896).
(J4.8222) Each ready rack holds the same drones that the fighter it is designed to service carries. Each ready rack is designed for a specific type of fighter. See (J4.891).
(J4.8223) Normally, a carrier keeps the ready racks filled but the fighters unloaded. When a strike is needed, the fighters are loaded with drones and launched. The deck crews then reload the racks while the fighters are on their mission so that the fighters can be reloaded quickly when they return.
(J4.8224) The status of a given carrier’s fighters is shown by the weapons status (S4.0). At WS-III the fighters are loaded but their weapons were taken from the ready racks, which have not been refilled.
(J4.8225) Variants of fighters (e.g., C-refit, F-18B) can be rearmed in each other’s ready racks, but obviously cannot load a weapon for which they are not authorized. If, for example, a fighter without a C-refit was in a fighter box for a fighter with a C-refit, and the ready rack held a type-I drone in a position that corresponded to a type-VI drone rail, that drone could not be loaded. Type-Is could be loaded by (J4.8962).

(J4.824) Drone storage is specified in (FD2.443).

(J5.42) STOCKPILE: All ships can be assumed to have one WBP for each of their shuttles, three for each of their fighters. Some scenario special rules may modify this.
(J5.421) Auxiliary carriers, having a lower supply priority, would only carry two per fighter.
(J5.422) Extra WBPs could be purchased as Commander’s Options at a rate equivalent to one BPV point each. Note that the type (of fighter/shuttle) for each WBP is specified at time of purchase.

(J8.53) SUPPORT: Any ship with an MRS shuttle uses the deck crews provided by (J4.814) unless (J4.815) applies. It is assumed to have an appropriate ready rack for its weapons, twelve reload ADDs (if the MRS has an ADD system), four extra chaff packs, and twenty spaces of drone storage (if the MRS uses drones; those with type-D plasma torpedoes have twenty stored).
(J8.531) The twenty drone spaces include, as a standard load, two type-IV, twelve type-VI, and ten type-I drones. These are "slow" and the speed costs must be paid depending on the year. (Players may experiment with other combinations of a total of twenty spaces.) The twenty spaces are com-posed of ten spaces of primary use and ten identical spaces of reload drones for purposes of cost calculations for special or improved drones. Players may voluntarily omit some of these drones to reduce costs.
(J8.532) In the case of a carrier, these items are added to the existing equipment stockpile and weapon storage.

(J11.13) STOCKPILE: Fighter pods are carried only by "fully capable carriers." Carriers receive these pods for free in all scenarios (including Patrol scenarios) unless otherwise noted.
(J11.131) Fully-capable carriers have (J4.752) two EW pods, one combat pod, one cargo pod, and one auxiliary pod for each fighter. Additional pods can be purchased as Commander’s Options (S3.2) unless the pod description prohibits extra purchases.
(J11.132) If a given carrier (or base) has more than one fighter squadron, they can use each other’s pods.
(J11.133) Before a scenario begins, a carrier can transfer two of the pods from its stockpile to each of its escorts. [This is not done if the force has been surprised (D18.0).] Also see (R2.R5). Also, an escort or carrier (but not a casual carrier or non-carrier) could buy extra pods as part of the Commander’s Options.