It is well established that the Vulcans had the only EY MY scout ships.

This proposal is that there was a version, somewhat nerfed from the "full scout sensors," in the late EY to early MY period that were made obsolete by the introduction of Scout tech to general availability.

The trick would be to make the early sensors both useful enough to be desireable, and sufficiently worse than the "full sensors" to be made obselete & withdrawn from service as soon as the "real sensors" got into general service.

Rationale:
Things develop gradually, with the occasional leap forward. This would smooth the curve for special sensor development...

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, August 10, 2019 - 04:38 am: Edit

I think EY special sensors are already about as nerfed as they are going to get (see YG24.0 for the various restrictions on EY scout sensors) and there is already a transition period in special sensor development from Y120 (when the first middle years scouts are introduced but with special sensors under EY restrictions) to Y134 (when EY restrictions on scout functions are universally removed).

Still I think it's plausible to propose that all empires introduced scouts on EY hulls very late in the Early Years, maybe Y115 or so, which would give you 5-10 years before they are replaced by Middle Years scouts (still under EY restrictions). I think this would be late enough in the Early Years that it wouldn't threaten the Vulcans' status of having the only ships with scout functions in the early years (and those ships were probably relegated to the National Guard by that time)

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Saturday, August 10, 2019 - 12:55 pm: Edit

What about a ship type that acted in the ROLE of a scout - perhaps having some of the kind of capabilities a special sensor has - that might have existed beforehand, but got replaced by the far-more-flexible special sensors?

Sort of like how a drone bombardment ship has extra drone control channels, or a wild weasel has the drone-distraction capability, that special sensors otherwise replicate.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Saturday, August 10, 2019 - 01:25 pm: Edit

What if early years Special Sensors were, like first generation RADARs, declared to be SO bulky that they could only be mounted in units that were literally built around them?

It would follow then that, unless you had someone like the Vulcans (who considered it logical to build ships from the keel up around their Special Sensors), the only other option would be to put them in cargo pods, and build around that. Scout pods.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, August 10, 2019 - 02:19 pm: Edit

Guys, this path is leading to a replication of the cookie cutter approach that saw a loss of flavour between the fleets during the GW. Y positively *revels* in the fact that each species had a different approach to both ship construction and fleet compositions.

Please don't shove Y down that path. The Vulcans don't get Photons until much later than the rest of the Federation species. In exchange, they get Phaser-1 and Special Sensors on their ships. Giving everyone else SS kinda takes away from the Vulcans.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 08:30 am: Edit

SVC,

Since this idea was also raised in the New Y Module topic, this topic can probably be deleted, or at least moved into the New Y Module topic.

Thanks!

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 08:33 am: Edit

Duplicate post.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, August 09, 2019 - 02:40 am: Edit

I could see some later Y era ships getting refitted with a "early-ish" special sensor.

Just nerf the scout functions that currently exist and shazam!

It seems odd that no one other than the Vulcans had special sensors AT ALL until they suddenly become available (away from my books) to the Feds/ Klinks/ Gorns/ Lyrans/ Kzinti in (insert correct YIS here).

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, August 09, 2019 - 03:20 am: Edit

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Quote:

It seems odd that no one other than the Vulcans had special sensors AT ALL until they suddenly become available

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By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, August 10, 2019 - 01:09 am: Edit

I would say that there should have been a small enough for ships "Nerfed" version before they all got fully functional ones all at once...

Seriously,

What is the YIS of the various ships that have special sensors?

Fed GSC and Scout?
First Kzinti scout (FFS?)
First Klingon Scout (the F5S?)
First Gorn Scout?

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, August 10, 2019 - 04:05 am: Edit

Y120 Lyran SC
Y125 Gorn SC
Y125 Tholian SC
Y127 Kzinit SF
Y125 Klingon D6E
Y125 Fed CLS

Per YG24.0 special sensors (even those belonging to the Tholians) are under a number of restrictions in the Early Years which are lifted in Y134. The rule could be clearer but I believe that these restrictions would apply even to Middle Years ships. So there is a period from Y120-Y133 when we have middle year scouts operating with "early year" special sensors.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, August 10, 2019 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Mike Grafton:

IMHO, I think that the decision in the W and Y series of ships to enhance the unique racial flavour of each Empires' ships is a welcome change from the trend that was happening in the GW era, where 'cookie cutter-ism' ran rampant.

As Douglas Saldana rightly points out, there is a 7 to 14 year gap for the various Empires where they had the miniaturization of the special sensors, but had to operate them under early years restrictions.

Giving everyone miniaturized special sensors in Y defeats this design intent. I'd counsel to leave well enough alone.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, August 10, 2019 - 11:57 pm: Edit

I accept you guys logic

By Andrew Cookson (Awcookson) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Special sensors are, well..., 'special, and expensive.
Has there been any talk of an Early Years special sensor with half the channels and lesser abilities?
Austensably they could have been developed to put on well protected survey freighters trying to probe the outer terratories (see Fed Merch?) We know the military would want them too, so that may be a road to madness? Maybe make the EY Special sensor take up two spaces or twice the power to use making them impractical for the military?
Thoughts...

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Andrew,

A couple people have proposed similar ideas in another topic

R00: PROPOSALS FOR NEW CLASSES: Late EY scouts

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Andrew: You are proposing a special sensor that needs twice the power (to dissuade the military from wanting it), then suggest that it find a home on a rickety civilian tub with *even less* spare power than a military ship?

By Andrew Cookson (Awcookson) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Doug; I figured there was already discussion on it. It's not exactly a novel idea. I'll go look that up for reading.
Mike D, yes, that is generally the application. They wouldn't build them into civilian freighters but more likely military ancillary freighter hulls, like the sort used for Q-Ships. The power issue isn't a thing because they would normally operate by going to a spot, stopping, firing up the special sensor, scan, them shut down and move on. Exploration.
I don't see each empire having more than 2-6 of the things (smaller empires having fewer, larger more).
They aren't really going to have a lot of game (combat) value but would make a little different twist in the 'protect the freighter' scenario.
I can already hear SPP loading the shotgun on this but it was a stray thought.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 03:49 pm: Edit

So, an EY version of an Auxiliary Scout or Exploration Freighter? I think you would have to increase the power cost a lot more than 2x in order to dissuade the military from using it. And you would have to reconcile this with the fact that special sensors on bases and Vulcan ships don't have these increased power costs.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Given that Early Years survey ships have already been published without special sensors, I am not sure where you can go with the idea of early scouts.

(YR1.26A) EARLY YEARS SMALL EXPLORATION FREIGHTER (YF-ES):
(YR1.26B) EARLY YEARS LARGE EXPLORATION FREIGHTER (YF-EL):
(YR2.21) WARP-REFITTED SURVEY CRUISER (WSR):
(YR2.22) EARLY SURVEY CRUISER (YCS):
(YR3.10) D3E WARP-REFITTED SURVEY CRUISER:
(YR3.16) D4E EARLY SURVEY CRUISER:
(YR5.18) EARLY SURVEY CRUISER (YSR):
(YR5.24) WARP-REFITTED SURVEY CRUISER (WSR):
(YR5.24A) IMPROVED WARP-REFITTED SURVEY CRUISER (WSI):
(YR6.16) EARLY SURVEY CRUISER (YSR):
(YR6.24) WARP-REFITTED SURVEY CRUISER (WSR):
(YR6.24A) WARP-REFITTED LASER SURVEY CRUISER (WSL):
(YR6.24B) WARP-REFITTED IMPROVED SURVEY CRUISER (WSI):
(YR9.17) WARP SURVEY DESTROYER (WDSR):
(YR9.19) EARLY YEARS SURVEY DESTROYER (YDSR):
(YR11.13) EARLY SURVEY PALLET (Pal-YSR):
(YR11.19) EARLY YEARS SURVEY CRUISER (YSR):
(YR11.21) WARP-REFITTED SURVEY CRUISER (WSR):

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Does look like that ship has sailed.

However, for the sake of argument, imagine that Jeffrey was right and you could mount a non-Vulcan special sensor on a ship in the Early Years but it would be so bulky that the ship would need to be built around it. Then imagine that Andrew was right and that powering the sensor would require the ship to virtually come to a stop to use it. It almost sounds like a Warbird or a Mauler.

The Romulans always did have a fondness for “superweapons” or anything that might compensate for their lack of tactical warp. And, as renegade Vulcans, they may even have had a certain cultural inclination towards the technology for special sensors despite their backwardness. So I am imagining a sub-light Romulan ship that mounts a special sensor or two but has an internal arrangement like a mauler: banks of batteries which are connected to the sensor (they are actually an integral part of the sensor but this is not represented on the SSD) and are used to power it and its functions. This ship may even have inadvertently inspired the design of the Mauler.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 10:48 pm: Edit

How about this: Maybe the problem of special sensors in the Early Years is not size or power, but platform stability? Only the Vulcans were able to figure out how to make special sensors work on a moving platform.

That would help solve the problem.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 11:06 pm: Edit

Perhaps Vulcan psionic skills play a role as well, either in the design, construction or operation of the ship-based special sensors. Of course, the Romulans also have some skill in psionics.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 12:14 am: Edit

Proposal: Romulan Sublight Scout

Modify a sub-light Falcon Mauler SSD. The mauler weapon itself is not present (remove the bold mauler arrow) but the battery banks are. Replace two batteries with special sensors.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 03:49 am: Edit

Good Gods, guys! All I am seeing is someone trying to do an end run around the Y era's Empire-based uniqueness. Vulcans get Ph-1 and Special Sensors. Only the Tholians shared that capability, because they arrived with it.

Give it a rest -- we do *not* need cookie cutter ships in Y.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Mike Dowd:

The Tholians arrived with phaser-1s, but not with special sensors. Their special sensors in the Early Years are under Early Years limitations (represents "lost technology," i.e., they had base mounted special sensors in their home galaxy, but not ship mounted special sensors, and apparently suffered the loss of their home galaxy technology when passing through the Energy Barrier, which destroyed any special sensors on the outside of the Dyson Sphere), and they do not get a "scout ship" until Y125, and the special sensors on it remain under Early Years restrictions until Y134, the same as virtually every other Alpha Octant empire.

Right now the only non-Vulcan exception is the Jindarians, who have scout ships (e.g., FFS) in Y1.