Archive through March 28, 2021
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module RM81 Tholian Home Galaxy:
Archive through March 28, 2021
I'd LOVE to see a module for M81 Galaxy module, but recognize that it is far enough away from "Federation vs. Klingon/Romulan" that it will probably never be done.
I would definitely buy an M81 module. I think its not as niche as it would appear at first. The Tholians are old school Trek and their history is a part of Alpha Octant history regardless of what Galaxy it occurs in.
You do understand that, even if small, the M81 Galaxy is a GALAXY, and history says the Tholians had completely Conquered it, and RULED it lone enough that they built MULTIPLE Dyson Spheres and expanded their population of THOLIANS to occupy all of those spheres? That The Tholians raised up at least three "most trusted subject" species to run their galaxies and had them revolt and exterminated them.
The Tholians do not have allies, do not seem to understand the concept ("Let's you and him fight" does not sound like "help me fight this guy").
So you have one world located somewhere in a galaxy that goes on to conquer that galaxy and all of the other races and run said galaxy with an iron hand from space stations (Dyson spheres).
It sounds to me like a hundred Millennium project just to produce enough Tholians who we are assured live about 200 years and probably have a relatively low birth rate since they do not need replacements so often (normally, we have at this time no indications of when a Tholian reaches maturity). Inventing just the three failed Subject Races and their weapons would be daunting enough.
I don't think we need to cover the entirety of Tholian history in a single module. Just add a few more pieces to the puzzle (much as Volume III did when it added the Neo-Tholians and C3 did when it added the Seltorians).
I think it would be enough to add the Old Galaxy Pirates and the Nebuline, add some new Neo-Tholian and Seltorian units, and expand a bit on the history.
Toss in at least a mini-campaign about dealing with a rebellion in one of the more fringe/backwater areas. Even as the rulers of the whole galaxy, there was probably some variation in just how evenly forces and fleets of the Will were spread out. Or it could even just be assumed to be set earlier in the galaxy's history, when the Will was still working on consolidating its hold.
Perhaps the Great Martial War could be the focus for a "starter" M81 module.
We know that the Nebuline were one of the three primary enemies of the Tholians in that conflict, and that their "winged" raiders were derived from "wingless" hulls which fought in the Great Martial War. As noted in the Nebuline discussion thread, a "campaign-compatible" fleet of GMW-era Nebuline warships would do much to help make a potential M81 module viable.
After that, there's the option of introducing the two other primary enemies the Tholians fought during the Great Martial War, whoever they might have been. And perhaps a secondary enemy or few? Or even the odd "wild card" faction to act as pirates and/or mercenaries, standing apart from the later Nebuline-backed High Pirate Bands?
I defer to ADB and Loren Knight in terms of what to expect in this era. But while the GMW had a clear winner historically, I'd hope for it to have been a close enough call to allow for a dynamic campaign.
Well some people would love M81 as it has no seeking weapons. Would be all Direct fire weapons. Giving it a different feel over the Alfa octant.
Hmmm
Let's just stick with the three prior subject races. Didn't ADB get like dozens of race submissions all those years ago? Is there nothing left in there that is any good? I know a half dozen or so have been used over the years for various purposes; were all the others simply unusable?
SVC SAYS NONE OF THEM WOULD BE USABLE HERE.
Omega modules and Y2 (early ISC) introduced more races in a single product. So, three subjects, pirates, and Nebuline aren't out of line.
SVC SAYS THAT AND MORE SPREAD OVER TWO OR THREE PRODUCTS.
This is not to say it should be done or that it'd sell enough to be worth the bother. But I would think there are enough unused things that theoretically already exist that would make the project at least possible.
I DON'T KNOW WE WOULD EVER PRINT COUNTERS BUT RULEBOOKS AND SSD BOOKS AREN'T AN ISSUE IF GARY DOES THEM (UNDER SPP VETO).
As for covering an entire galaxy, we already have play test modules for two other entire galaxies, plus the Magallanics, so I don't see why that would be a barrier. Really, I don't see this as necessarily an unreasonable ask.
That all said, how interesting would it actually be? No subject race really ever fought each other (SVC SAYS YOU DON'T KNOW THAT); only Tholians. Most everyone else was just freighters (POST-CONQUEST). The pirates were just little skirmishes. I have no idea about the Nebuline, but don't see any grand battles there, just more small, desperate fights for survival. There just isn't any "there" there, outside the long Seltorian/Tholian war, and that is already covered for the most part. Other than a bunch of new races and technology that never fight anything other than Tholians, what's the gain?
A lot of what has been published in recent years has been (to a greater or lesser extent) conjectural or alternate history. I’m thinking the Borak, Peladine, Andromedan Threat File, and Lost Empires but that is not a complete list. What you describe already has more opportunity for historical battles than those products.
I think there is quite a bit we don’t know about the Revolt. It’s possible that the Nebuline and the High Pirate Bands played a greater role than we know.
The Nebuline may have tried to reassert themselves as a Galactic Power or tried to ally with one side or the other.
Pirates may have served as mercenaries or attempted to establish Pirate Kingdoms.
The Tholians would have quickly lost the ability to effectively monitor and control their subject species. Even loyal planets may have taken the opportunity to show more independence.
There might even have been a “2nd most trusted species” that hoped to replace the Seltorians as the Tholian’s janissaries (not realizing that this revolt, unlike the previous ones, was not doomed to failure).
Even the Seltorians were not all of the same mind. It’s often forgotten that some of the Seltorians actually wanted to “let the surviving Tholians go in peace” (Module C3) and that the Seltorian Tribunal is a distinct body separate from the Seltorian Suzerainty.
It's good to see a dedicated thread for a would-be M81 module.
SVC SEZ: USE IT EFFECTIVELY.
Can the Nebuline thread be re-opened
SVC SEZ: DONE
, or should any further discussion of that faction be held here instead? For what its worth, I was hoping that this thread could be used more for examining the home galaxy at large, while keeping faction-specific discussions in their appropriate sub-threads.
On that front, would it be worth adding a new sub-thread for the M81 Pirates, or should that wait until after more is known about their Nebuline benefactors?
SVC SEZ: DONE
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As a round-up, these are the species and factions known to have some sort of connection to M81 thus far:
The Tholians (NO NEW SHIPS NEEDED)
The Seltorians (NO NEW SHIPS NEEDED)
At least three "pre-Seltorian" enforcer species (RETREAD SELTS)
The Nebuline
The High Pirate Bands (those with access to OGRs and OGDs) and Low Pirate Bands (those which have yet to attain such "miliary" hardware)
At least two additional major enemies the Tholians fought during the Great Martial War
The Bolosco
The KoTanrho
The Juggernauts (if the Fire in the Deep fiction piece in CL41 is to be believed)
Of course, we don't yet know how much of an overlap an M81 Venn diagram would reveal for certain of the above categories.
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In the Q&A portion of Captain's Log #48, it's noted that the Bolosco had already fled M81 prior to the Tholians reaching their home region of space. Thus, the two species never actually met.
One could picture a campaign involving the Bolosco exodus from the home galaxy. Or perhaps a "what-if" campaign in which some or all of the Bolosco had stayed in M81.
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As for the KoTanrho, the "warlike empire" which led to the Bolosco being forced to flee the home galaxy: there is speculation that they had something to do with the Zosmans, who themselves have extra-galactic origins. But then again, it's entirely possible that the Bolosco and Zosmans only met for the first time in the Omega Octant, and it was merely a case of hate at first sight. (Neither side are open to discussing the matter.)
SVC SEZ: SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD THING.
Of course, it's not clear how many degrees of separation the KoTanrho themselves are from the Tholians. For all we know, even they might have been out of the picture, one way or another, by the time the Tholians reached their home territories. But perhaps the playtest Zosman ships in Captain's Log #50 and Captain's Log #52 could be used as temporary stand-ins, until or unless more is known about who or what the KoTanrho actually are (or were).
SVC SEZ: NO, DO SOMETHING NEW
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And of course, there is the potential for other extra-galactic invaders to show up, perhaps at some point in the post-Revolt era. It could be that an Intergalactic Trunk Line is already being built in the direction of one of M81's satellite galaxies...
SVC SEZ: NO. DEAD HORSE. DON'T BRING IT UP AGAIN.
Thinking about this, the key is "can you find anything interesting to do that doesn't involve violating published history."
There is just lots of stuff that are prohibited to the Tholians. X-ships, Y-ships, F-ships, carriers, escorts, maulers, fighters, gunboats, scouts -- those are all off the table and stay that way, period, dead horse. Indeed, you really do not need any new Tholian ships at all. The radical "Sojourner" is off the table; it was a unique ship built at the very end and the end came before it could be repeated.
I will say here and now. NO CONJECTURAL THOLIANS. No what ifs, because those do not work when the Tholians haven't seen M-Zero.
As far as the pre-Seltorian enforcer races (PSERs), you're just going to rearrange the boxes on a Seltorian SSD and not allow them to have web breakers. Form follows function. What the Seltorians have the others needed, so you're just rearranging boxes into another shape.
That leaves three basic scenarios:
1. Tholians wipe out the pre-Selt enforcers who didn't have web breakers but otherwise are flying Seltorian ships.
2. Tholians (or more likely enforcer species) versus rebels and pirates. These rebels/pirates might use fighters or seeking weapons (which would be worthless against webs) but NOT X-ships, fast ships, stealth, cloaks.
3. Tholian original conquest: How that history works is unclear, but I imagine that the Tholians got going in some part of the galaxy without much competition. By the time they had competition they had the biggest empire in the galaxy (even if it was only 20% of the galaxy, nobody else exceeded 5%) and they just overwhelmed enemies one at a time, enslaved them, and used their resources to Gobble up the next enemy.
If you can make a module out of that, we'll print it when Gary finishes it.
I can also picture there being "Minor Races" in the galaxy.
One possible story arc can involve a small scale war between two minor powers which, if it remains small enough in scale (and DOESN'T involve anyone else), might be regarded by The Will as "Beneath their notice."
(A war which, if it DOES become too annoying, might lead to a scenario or two where The Will crushes BOTH peoples homeworlds...)
I can also imagine The Will fostering competition among minor races for who might gain enough favor with them to "Replace" the Seltorians as "Most Trusted Subject."
Anyway, that's just my 0.02 Quatloos worth. 
There were also Civil Wars (Tholian vs. Tholian) during the history of the Will with SH120 being a minor example (and with Seltorians fighting on both sides).
A revolt by a prior enforcer species may have been timed to take advantage of such a political crisis. Perhaps, unlike SH120, the enforcer species supported one side of the conflict en masse giving that Tholian faction a considerable boost (and the revolt a fighting chance).
Prior enforcer species were likely well aware of the strength of the Will's Navy so I can only assume that there were other circumstances in play that led them to believe they had a fighting chance or they wouldn't have revolted to begin with.
It might be worth figuring out who first invented certain technologies or hull types in M81.
While the Tholians naturally were the ones to develop web technology, did they develop particle cannons themselves, or did they acquire them from someone else?
For that matter, who were the ones to develop the shield cracker? Might it have been one of the "pre-Seltorian" enforcer species, or perhaps one of the rival empires the Tholians fought before and/or during the Great Martial War? (It would not make sense to me for the Nebuline to have been the ones to have invented them, given that shield crackers cannot function inside a nebula.)
And on a broader note, if the "pre-Seltorian" enforcers more or less used the same hulls as the Seltorians proper, does that include the Hive and Nest cargo haulers used to ferry supplies to the various Sphere construction sites? Perhaps the Tholians "commissioned" the earliest enforcer species to design and build such units, or perhaps they had been used by a pre-conquest species (maybe as colony arks, or even as floating cities) and were re-purposed by Tholian command to serve a new supply role?
To put it another way, I wouldn't necessarily picture the Tholian engineers "lowering" themselves to the level of designing and building ships and weapon systems to be used solely by a non-Tholian enforcer species. More likely (to me, at least) they would leave that up to someone else, while filing the template way to hand down to the next enforcer species once the current ones outlive their usefulness.
On the prior enforcer races, could they not have had different weapons?
Or, going in the exact opposite direction, how about this:
If I remember correctly, the prior enforcer races where promoted slave races. Maybe the first one actually designed (or helped design) the ships that are now known as Seltorian ships. When they revolted, and the next one was raised up, the Tholians just gave the new enforcers the old enforcers' ships and let them build and use those. It saved money and effort to just use the prior designs. Plus it reminded the new enforcer race that they can be readily replaced, too.
This process repeated a few times (at least once more). When the last pre-Seltorian enforcers we disposed of, the Tholians decided that making a new race would ensure loyalty, and the Seltorian were created. But, again, the same old designs were trotted back out and reused with the Seltorian.
This way, the other enforcer race ships aren't just Seltorian ships with boxes rearranged. They are literally the same ships. Again, it saves Tholians and the enforcer race a lot of time and money to keep using the proven designs. And it makes the module easier to deal with because the interchangeable enforcer races just use the same interchangeable ships. The focus can the be on the more interesting races and doomed empires.
Ooo. And if you do want enforcer-on-prior-enforcer combat (as SVC implied in a refutation to my above assertion), maybe this is a direct part of the transition. The Tholians crush the most dangerous part of the rebellion, but then immediately promote the next enforcer race, put them in the enforcer ships, and let them finish off their predecessors. If they do a bad job (or fail), the Tholians move to the next race and let them clean up. Then, maybe once, you could have a Rebel vs Failed Enforcer vs New Enforcer war and campaign.
Id wonder as to whether or not any of the M81 empires ever built "wartime construction" hulls, or if they are obliged to build "peacetime construction" hulls only.
The various Neo-Tholian hulls appear to be "peacetime construction", as they both survived a centuries-long exodus and later managed to incorporate first-generation X-technology. The Seltorian ships don't quite fit the "peacetime/wartime" mould, but their home galaxy hulls appear to be "peacetime construction" also. While the OGR and OGD look like they might have been converted from some sort of "wingless" Nebuline light cruiser and destroyer respectively, if one subtracts the third warp nacelle along with the oversized port wing it's attached to the end of.
So I wouldn't mind if the concept of "wartime construction" simply wasn't a factor in M81.
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On the other hand, I would like to see more empires deploy battleships historically in M81. If not for the various enforcer species (who presumably would be under the same size limits as the Seltorians), at least for the major pre-conquest empires such as the Great Martial War-era Nebuline.
The Tholians already have access to the NBB, so why not give it some rivals in the same weight category?
If Seltorian ships are “hand-me-downs” they may still have undergone some evolution as they changed hands (additions or deletions to the basic hull designs).
I’m thinking that perhaps the original designs lacked booms and there used to be a greater variety of base hulls. A later enforcer species may have innovated booms and found that they greatly simplified ship construction by reducing the size and number of base hulls required to build a balanced fleet.
The Tholians already have access to the NBB, so why not give it some rivals in the same weight category?
Nope, the NBB is their trump to the BBL ...
In their civil wars, the Tholians (or the revolting subject races) would have occasion to build and use anti-web weapons of some nature. And once those wars were over, the Tholians would make very very sure to destroy any trace of those weapons and to hide the plans in a very very secure place.
So this a) gives an opportunity to add some new technology, and potentially a different technology for each faction
and b) doesn't affect the history that comes after it because no trace remains.
What that technologies are remains to be seen. Maybe something that suppresses it temporarily, or analyses it to allow web passage.
Maybe a seeker that strikes the web, which goes TWANG and breaks, damaging anything trapped in it.
Maybe a system that operates when the ship it's installed on is stuck in the web; it makes that web weaken and disintegrate.
You get the idea.
Perhaps the Tholians started with phasers, and web caster/generators, the particle cannon was a cheaper to maintain weapon captured from someone else (similar as to how the got disruptors from the Klingons, and part of the reason they decided grab disruptors), and replaced phasers on the original Tholian ships.
Years ago I was working on material for the Senatorial Tholians, the large Tholians to whom our regular Tholians were basically just an elevated worker class. (Working backwards from a large, more stylized ship mini.)
I was toying with the idea of a collapsed Senate empire, with the Tholian Will arising out of the collection of regional warlords and factory bosses and being more fragmented and less unified than the Will portrayed itself (and thus each Will faction uplifting their own subject workers and mercenaries). Perhaps the cycle of empire and revolt is a recurring event in that galaxy?
I do not think Seltorian ships are hand me downs. There would be decade between the death of one enforcer an the rise of another.
The Tholian biology article in Captain's Log #33 and in Away Team Log notes that there had been four sub-types of Tholian which had emerged back on Tholia Prime. Yet the "Pillar" Tholians seemed to have been the dominant type throughout, as they were the only ones to remain in space for the long term.
I might warn that the concept of the Tholians having once been subservient to an elder species risks hewing a bit too closely to how the Tholians are portrayed in the Franchise novel series Star Trek: Vanguard.
It would be interesting to learn more about the other Tholian sub-types, though naturally one would need to make sure none of those directly overlap with the post-1979 Franchise portrayal of this species.
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If one were to picture the Tholian conquest of M81 as having occurred in stages rather than all at once, perhaps the very first enforcer species might have been contracted at some point prior to or during the Great Martial War?
Despite their presumed ability to "slum it" by living in domed colonies and orbital stations while waiting for the first wave of Spheres to be built, the "mid-conquest" Tholian empire might start finding itself with a growing need to keep an increasing number of subjugated species in line. Or, depending on how many ships would be in the GMW-era Tholian order of battle compared to the combined totals belonging to their opponents, they might even have needed to leverage the presence of such enforcer ships in order to tip the scales decisively in their favour.
Not that the Tholians would ever publicly admit to having needed such "help" in order to achieve pan-galactic dominance, of course...
Would be interesting to know the fate of Tholia Prime in the revolt.
Was its location well known? Was it still of political or economics importance or was it largely abandoned?
Were the Tholians sentimental about their homeworld? Did the Seltorians go to any special effort to capture or devastate it? Was that a major turning point in the war?