Archive through April 06, 2021
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module RM81 Tholian Home Galaxy:
Archive through April 06, 2021
the concept of the Tholians having once been subservient to an elder species
NOT PART OF SFU
Would be interesting to know the fate of Tholia Prime in the revolt.
DESTROYED, BILLIONS DIED
Was its location well known?
NO, BUT THE SELTS FOUND IT
Was it still of political or economics importance or was it largely abandoned?
YES, ULTIMATELY IMPORTANT
Were the Tholians sentimental about their homeworld?
DEVASTATED WHEN IT WAS DESTROYED
Did the Seltorians go to any special effort to capture or devastate it?
OH HELL YES
Was that a major turning point in the war?
YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.
Some hypothetical thoughts on earlier "Most Trusted Subject" revolts.
1. Pre-refit Tholian ships: These would not be Y-series or "early years" ships. The refits would be more along the lines of the "+", "B", "C-14", etc. refits that various Alpha empires applied to their ships to improve combat capabilities. Perhaps these "pre-refit" ships were essentially the same as the current (M81 version) of the NFF, NDD, NCL, NCA, NDN, (and maybe the NBB - see comment 2. below) ships; escept that they lacked phaser-IIIs and APR and had weaker shields. Though the Tholians successfully destroyed an earlier "Most trusted Subject" revolt, the effort convinced them to upgrade their own ships. These upgrades had become universal many decades before the Seltorian revolt.
2. Battleships: Perhaps at one point the largest Neo-Tholian ship was the NDN (whether the current version or the hypothsized pre-refit version discussed above). They considered battleships as not cost effective and a waste of money. Thus, when a "Most Trusted Subject" started building battleships, the Tholians regarded the efforts with a sort of bemused contempt, arrogantly assuming no "inferior" subjects could build something that large that would actually work. Though the subsequent revolt was crushed anyway, largely because the revolutionaries still didn't have an adequate response to web technology, the Tholians decided to forbid their next "Most Trusted Subjects" from building battleships, and also produced their own NBB.
3. Weapons Breakthrough: Perhaps once-upon-a-time particle cannons were not overloadable. Tholian military R&D had somewhat stagnated because they saw no reason to expend the resources, given that they already thought themselves untouchable. But a new "Most Trusted Subject", conducting secret research at out-of-way sites ostensibly devoted toward other purposes, developed the ability to overload particle cannons. This temporary superiority gave them the confidence to revolt. They overestimated the effectiveness of the new capability and failed in their revolt; largely because, unlike the Seltorians, they still had no answer to web technology. But afterwards the Tholians of course refitted all their own PCs.
I agree that "Middle Years" ships for the home galaxy Tholians would be welcome, but I would push back their "refit" upgrades to some point before or during the Great Martial War. That said, I would want to see a pre-refit version of the NBB be historically in service.
Perhaps the various collars - even that on the NBB - did not exist yet in the M81 equivalent to the Middle Years? The R-section data for the home galaxy NBB (R7.122) in the Tholian Master Starship Book already provides for use of this ship without the collar; one could say that, among other things, the Middle Years NBB went without the collar as a matter of course.
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I was thinking more on the idea of pushing the first "enforcer" species back to some point prior to the onset of pan-galactic conquest.
Perhaps such an introduction could be in various stages, based on the needs of the pre-conquest Tholian empire at a given point in time.
To start, say that at some point prior to the Great Martial War, the Tholians had built up the critical mass of subjugated species to warrant the introduction of an enforcer species to keep tabs on them. So, they either pick a previously-conquered species, or perhaps "accept the surrender" of a species they had yet to fully conquer, and contract with them for this purpose. Yet, at this point, they would be restricted to Size Class 4 units (the "Seltorian" DD and FF) and to base stations.
Actually, this could be a way to account for historical Middle Years versions of "Seltorian" hulls.
Fast forward to the Great Martial War, when the Tholians run the numbers and find that, if things are left as they are, the margins of victory or defeat are too close for comfort this time around. So, they alter the equation by allowing the enforcer species to deploy Size Class 3 units (the "Seltorian" CL and CA) as well as battle stations.
Yet, after a few years (or a few decades), the Tholians run the numbers again and find that this is still not enough to break the deadlock. So, they make the fateful decision to allow the enforcer species to field Size Class 2 units (the "Seltorian" BCH and DN), along with their first starbases. This helps to turn the tide of the war decisively in the Tholians' favour, contributing to their final victory.
And yet, now the last major threat to Tholian dominance is from those same enforcers, whose very success at their role might lead them to consider rebelling against the Tholians themselves.
Alas, things don't work out too well for them. But once this first great rebellion is crushed and the Tholians have formally established their rule over the M81 galaxy, they can provide the next enforcer species with a ready-made template of ships and bases for them to operate - along with a clear example of what happens if/when they attempt to overturn Tholian rule.
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Also, depending on where and when the templates for the Hive and Nest cargo haulers are sourced, it could be that the pre-Revolt siege variants proposed in this thread could in fact have been first used by one (or more) of the earliest enforcer species - either to support any Tholian efforts to clear out a holdout Nebuline colony, or perhaps as part of their failed rebellions against the Tholians themselves.
Gary, I'm not sure what you mean by "Seltorian" when you put it in quotation marks. I might be misinterpreting SVC's posts but I think he was saying that pre-Seltorian enforcer races had ships which were equivalent to Seltorian classes in capabilities (i.e. system boxes on the SSD), not that they used the same hull forms.
If you're just talking about the dates that pre-Seltorian enforcer species were allowed to build certain ship classes (like a DN) then you can just say "DN" without referencing the Seltorians.
Middle Years Home Galaxy : I SAID NO
Refits for Home Galaxy: I SAID NO
Tholian technology was stagnant for 5,000 years, maybe 25,000 years. Get over it.
Was it ever stated, how long they took to move the Dyson Sphere from where it was built to Klingon Space....
There is an article in Captain's Log and copied in the Tholian Master Starship Book which alludes to the time it took.
If you were trying to design a ship to fight Tholians using standard alpha octant tech (no Andromedan tech, no X-tech, no web breakers) what might that look like?
How might the answer differ based on attacking a base defended by web vs. fighting Neo-Tholian ships in open space?
As someone whose favorite empire is the Tholians, I am more scared of the Hydrans than any other Alpha empire.* In fact, I'm more scared of them than I am of the Seltorians (though Andromedans are still the most dangerous threat).
Hellbore fleets for open space battles. Massed fighters for assaulting webbed defenses. (I'm assuming a "floating map", since that is what an "actual" space battle would involve.)
If allowed to combine tech, give them some sort of seeking weapon capability. It won't likely do much damage directly, at least not in major battles where the Tholians could be expected to have web casters deployed. But ECM drones, or ECM plasma, would give the Hydrans EW superiority.
*I'm speaking purely of a technological comparison here, ignoring differences in economy and strategic resources.
A note for (much) further down the line:
Each of the other non-Alpha settings has a distinct "rule letter". Omega rules start with "O" (as in OE, OR, etc.); the LMC has "M" (as in ME, MR, and so forth); while the playtest M33 material has "N" (as in EN, RN, and whatnot).
Is there a "spare" letter which could be set aside for M81-native rules and SSDs going forward?
For example, rather than leaving the OGR and OGD as (R15.91) and (R15.92) respectively, perhaps they could one day be moved out of the Seltorians' basement and reassigned to their own (whatever)R-entries, as and when a setting and faction template were to be set up for them.
"Crime doesn't pay" which is why the Old Galaxy Pirates are still living in the Seltorians' basement.
How about S for Seltorian. Since, you know, it's their galaxy now ...
Maybe W for Will, or B for Bode's Galaxy (the original name of M81).
Alan, what specifically makes the Hellbore a good weapon versus the Tholians?
Douglas,
Maybe later I'll post a longer answer in the "Tholian Tactics" section aout why the Andromedans are clearly the biggest technological threat to the Tholians, the Hydrans are second, and the Seltorians are only third. But for now, here's a somewhat brief discussion specifically of the Hydrans as a Tholian foe.
Note: My assessment of the relative threats posed by these three foes is based on "latest technology" (including the conjectural Seltorian X-ships since without them they are at a HUGE disadvantage against a Tholian which does have X-tech). But since your 11:30 PM post on 29 March was for Alpha tech only, and specified non-X, my discussion here of the Hydrans will assume late-war tech except for X-tech. So the Neo-Tholians have shown up and the Tholians have web casters, and both sides can field megafighters and PFs.
You aksed
Quote:Alan, what specifically makes the Hellbore a good weapon versus the Tholians?
I'm going to start by noting that, except for the Selts and Andros, attacking a wedding cake inherently requires large numbers of platforms. If an Alpha power moves into the outer ring from the "north side", the Tholians can simply move ships to reinforce the ring on the south side, while the base's phaser-IVs tear up the ships in the north. The attacker must be able to attack the web from all sides, and with enough forces to replace losses as the Tholian blasts the attackers with phaser fire, trying to create a blind spot from which they can maintain web strength. The Hydrans are better at this than any other empire. They can send in huge numbers of fighters, far more than any other empire. And Stinger-2s have tremendous short-ranged firepower relative to their cost. The Hydrans will lose enormous numbers of fighters in the assault. But that means they lose fewer ships. And except (sometimes) for the Andros, there just isn't an inexpensive way to take out a prepared Tholian defense that was not caught off guard.
But a bunch of Rangers with vast numbers of fighters is not a good way to engage a Tholian battle fleet in open space. Remember, I am assuming a "floating map", since that better simulates "real" space. And at least for important battles, the ones that could alter the course of the war, the Tholians will have web caster support. The "Rangers + Stingers" force has enormous short-range firepower. But it is extremely difficult to close with a Tholian web caster-supported force that wants to keep the range long. And with their disruptors, photon torpedoes, larger numbers of phaser-1s, and web fists (if the situation that turn doesn't call for casting web), a Tholian force will easily outgun "Rangers + Stingers" at long range. But hellbore-equipped ships can fight the Tholians at range, both due to the weapon itself and due to the fact that the Hydran hellbore ships typically have the most sustainable (not Orion, not mauler) power of any conventional (nor Wyn) ships in their class.
So it's not so much that the hellbore is uniquely good against the Tholians, It's that the "Rangers + Stingers" is the best available (non-Andro) force for assaulting wedding cakes, but not good for fighting Tholians in open space. Hellbore-equipped ships are better for the latter role. The Hydrans should fight the Tholians using specialized fleets, with hellbore fleets to control space and fighter-heavy fleets to assault bases that have been isolated because the hellbore ships have cut them off from reinforcements.
That, at any rate, is how I see it. YMMV, as they say.
Douglas, Alan, when I was trying to work out the tactics for the Tholian Destroyer Force for the most recent BattleForce 550, there were two main threats I was primarily concerned about; the impact of a Death Bolt (something countered relatively easily by the scout and just keeping a little distance) and the potential for a single dimple in one shield facing (ANY shield facing) becoming a Hellbore magnet.
That's the main reason why I tried presenting the Tholian tactical plans in such a way as to push the idea of "Let's you and him fight" to (hopefully) "Encourage" the Hydrans to shoot at someone (ANYone) else! 
Let's face it; pentagonal shields are a GREAT barrier against the FIRST Hellbore strike. However, if one shield is down just one strength point less than the others...
On top of that, Tholian ships just don't have the interior padding of many other peoples. Sure, the Destroyer force I used has strength 27 shields in all directions, but once a shield is penetrated, there are so few internal systems and so few are NOT critical power, weapons, or control systems boxes (i.e.: free hits/internal padding) that any hit past the shields is going to hurt!
Alan, Jeff, thanks for these detailed responses. I’ve been thinking about this in relation to the history of M81 and how the empires there might have optimized their technology once the Tholians emerged as their principal opponent.
In summary:
Fighters (if they ever existed in M81) would have been valuable for base assaults if deployed in large numbers. Presumably, these would have relied on direct fire weapons rather than seeking weapons.
ECM drones/plasma would be useful given the lack of other EW platforms. Conventional seeking weapons would likely be useless in a base assault but might still have some value when fighting in open space.
A long-range direct fire weapon (the example given being the Hellbore) is preferred when fighting web caster armed ships, especially if it has the ability to hit a non-facing shield.
“Lack of interior padding” probably doesn’t apply to Neo-Tholian designs so this won’t be an exploitable weakness in M81 (unless you’re just fighting PCs).
I’ve been scouring the rulebook for other ideas but it doesn’t seem like there are a lot of good ways to counter Tholian tech without an “anti-web” weapon.
Maybe swordfish drones (if available in sufficient numbers) might be useful for attacking through web but fighters could do the same job better.
Web Casters are vulnerable to ECM but only self-generated ECM (from a nearby ship) or natural ECM (from the target hex) so that does not seem easy to exploit unless a unit has some extra built-in ECM.
Just among us, whenever I've read about "Nightmare Weapon Combos" (for instance, Hellbores and PPDs), my (warped?) mind instantly thought, "What if the Tholians were able to, somehow, integrate Hydran weapon systems into their fighters? How well protected would a Tholian base be if their webs could virtually guarantee that a fighter armed with fusion beams and a Gatling phaser could get to point blank range of an attacking ship?"
Makes me glad that such an event is impossible.
It doesn't have be the weapons, just the doctrine would be painful enough if it turns all the Tholian ships into casual carriers. (Experimented with that in one campaign - no Neos, no casters, but swarms of cheap Spiders to clog up the map.)
I wonder if there was an opportunity during the Andromedan War for the Hydrans to send an Expeditionary Fleet to Tholian space. Or perhaps they might have teamed up once Operation Unity reached the LMC.
Web plus a robust seeking weapon capability (could be either big plasma or drones, though the tactics for employment will differ somewhat) is the real "Nightmare Weapon Combo" for Tholian opponents.
Well there were the Gorn and Kzinti expeditionary fleets during Operation Nutcracker.
I've considered submitting a term paper, or maybe two, about Tholian web defense if an allied seeking-weapon-using empire is part of the defense force.
Never got around to it, however.
Seems tricky using allied ships in web defense since they're kind of stuck wherever you put them and they can't help maintain the web.
Would the advantage of their seeking weapons be enough to justify those disadvantages?