Re: Captain's Master Rulebook (G16.651) Page 241

EXAMPLE: Captain Kirst in his D7A, Commodore Kecond in his C7A, and Admiral Kird in his C9A are all vying for the open seat on the Klingon High Council...

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, June 23, 2021 - 08:25 pm: Edit

I'm in the DFW area. Where are you playing?

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, June 24, 2021 - 08:35 am: Edit

My house in South Frisco near Independence and the SRT.

I've heard from people in the Facebook group that you're a nightmarish difficult opponent. Maybe I should pretend it's canceled. ;)

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, June 24, 2021 - 04:22 pm: Edit

ROFL. I'm not THAT good.

I did take 2nd place in Origins in 2008 and have a few Aces under my belt, but I'm nowhere near the league of greats like Paul Scott, Tom Carroll, Peter Bakija, etc. However, I might have a few fun tricks to show folks.

I'm up in Celina, just 15-20 min away or so. Use the email in my profile and send me a shout when you're planning on playing next and I'll see if I can make it.

Assuming it isn't "canceled", that is. =)

-T

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Thursday, June 24, 2021 - 05:56 pm: Edit

He is that tough but a nice guy, At least here and on SFBOL...that is

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, June 24, 2021 - 07:48 pm: Edit

Sent.

You've won exactly one more origins then I have, so maybe we're not too far apart. ;)

I've never actually played a tournament. I did one duel with tournament ships 20 uears ago. Given how many people we have, it looks like we'll probably be doing Combat Rally (S1), Assigned Target Game KT), or PF Demolition Derby (T).

By John Smith (Johnsmith) on Thursday, June 24, 2021 - 11:41 pm: Edit

10 or 15 years ago, when I first discovered SFB was online, Ted showed me that I was very out of my league in the shark tank known as SFBOL. Very politely, with lots of patience and help with the client.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, June 25, 2021 - 10:56 am: Edit

What are the limits for sharing scenario info and SSDs? We're going to have a large group playing and not everyone owns Module T. Since we'll probably do a scenario from there I'd like to share those few pages of my pdf as well as the various SSDs for the tourney ships so people can pick what they want to fly.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, June 25, 2021 - 11:17 am: Edit

Considering you can literally download the tournament SSDs from this website, I think you're good on the SSDs.

As for the scenarios, I would imagine you're fine there, too. Though that one needs confirmation from someone actually from ADB.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, June 25, 2021 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Jean replied on the Facebook group. A few copies are fine for in person play but they should stay with me when the event is done.

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Friday, July 09, 2021 - 02:11 pm: Edit

In the R section of the rulebook there are ICONS for each of the Races... are those available on this website anywhere?

By Nick Blank (Nickgb) on Friday, July 09, 2021 - 02:29 pm: Edit

There is a PDF here:

Empire Emblems

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Friday, July 16, 2021 - 12:11 am: Edit

I'm reading an old Star Fleet Times from 1995, and I see a preview of Module J2 (back when it was planned to be about battle groups, not fighters), and there's mention of a destroyer group campaign planned.
Did anything ever come of that? I know J2 obviously took a very different path, but did the destroyer group campaign idea ever go anywhere?
It sounds like a neat idea.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, July 16, 2021 - 01:34 pm: Edit

Shawn Gordon:

I am afraid not. I do not even remember if there was more than an idea behind it.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, July 16, 2021 - 04:00 pm: Edit

I wonder...

How hard might it be to do a sort of "Captain's Game" mini-campaign, but based around a 300 to 350 point Destroyer group? I mean, monster scenarios have balancing calculations based on the BPV of the ship in question, so it ought to be doable...

(Anyway, that's just this screwballs 0.002 Quatloos worth. )

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, July 16, 2021 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Jeff Anderson:

Starting from the design concept.

Why not a Police Squadron Campaign?

Then a Frigate Squadron Campaign?

Then a Battle Frigate Campaign?

Then a Destroyer Squadron Campaign?

Then a War Destroyer Squadron Campaign?

Then a Destroyer Squadron Campaign?

Then a Light Cruiser Squadron Campaign?

Then a War Cruiser Squadron Campaign?

Then a New Heavy Cruiser Squadron Campaign?

Then a Heavy Cruiser Squadron Campaign?

The point is that if you were to do a "Squadron Campaign" you ought to take into account the typical squadrons. And each of the sqaudrons might include variants (two D5s and a D5D for example).

And obviously you are going to divide them by years and generations (Warp-refitted, early years, middle years, general war, advanced technology).

I think you can see that this will lead to madness, BUT let me point out that Captain's Game already covers much of this for single ships. So it has been done to some extent.

Obviously I am not saying "no," but you are starting from a simple idea ("let's play with the destroyers") that rapidly explodes ("Let's play with war cruisers," or "Let's play with police ships since it will take less time").

The Captain's Game shows the way (with its expansions to the Frigate Captain's Game and the Survey Captain's Game and attempts at an Orion Captain's game).

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Friday, July 16, 2021 - 06:01 pm: Edit

What is the primary role of a destroyer within SFB? What missions are they sent on?

According to my very limited understanding real destroyers started off as escorts to keep torpedo boats away from capital ships or other ships that needed protection from them by destroying torpedo boats (torpedo boat destroyers > destroyers).

Then, the role expanded to general escort, with specialised destroyers focusing on anti-aircraft or anti-submarine warfare.

Then, with the advent of cruise missiles, they became general weapons delivery platforms and general combat vessels, doing what battleships and cruisers used to do.

The captain's game works so well with different classes of ships because the captain's game is a list of general encounters that a ship operating unsupported out on its own might participate in. The other versions of the captain's game are adaptations based on the specific needs of the variant ship types (frigate captain's game makes everything smaller, survey captain's game focuses on surveying instead of fighting, etc).

Is a destroyer just an escort in SFB? Does a destroyer group go out and do the things a heavy cruiser does?

This is the question that needs to be answered in order to avoid/adapt to the design explosion that SPP listed. If a destroyer's role is fundamentally interchangeable with a frigate's role, then there is absolutely no need to make a campaign for the destroyer group and the frigate group. The frigate group would just be a scaled-down destroyer group campaign. If a frigate's missions are fundamentally different from a destroyer's, then they shouldn't have the same campaign. If a frigate is different than a battle frigate and a destroyer, but a battle frigate fills the same role and goes on the same missions as a destroyer, then the destroyer group campaign should work just as fine with battle frigates, but not for frigates. And so on for every class.

If the destroyer group campaign were to cover escort missions, interceptions, defense of a base, and a deep strike, then it would be fundamentally compatible with any ship that performed those roles as its primary function. A police cutter isn't a natural choice for a base defense or a deep strike (although it could do these things I guess), and so this would be inappropriate for the police cutter. If the frigate or battle frigate can fill all those roles, then no problem, it should be fine to just downscale it a little. I don't even think you'd need to change the name of the campaign (but maybe you would want to, the Flotilla Leader's Game or something?). If a heavy cruiser (or war cruiser, or new heavy cruiser) can do all those roles, but is primarily designed for other roles, then it could be run through the destroyer group campaign, but it would be as inappropriate to do so as running a GSC in a captain's game would be. A GSC can be flown in the captain's game, but it's weird to do so, and there's a survey captain's game for that purpose. Likewise, the NCA group (is there such a thing?) could be run in the DD group campaign, but if their roles are different, then it would be just weird to do so.

So the starting point is really, what does a destroyer do in SFB, and what makes it different from other small ships?

Answering that allows for the selection of scenarios that could be used to generate a campaign that could be as specific to destroyers as destroyers are suited to do specific things that other classes might or might not be suited to do.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Friday, July 16, 2021 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Put less ramblingly: What does a destroyer normally do?
What does a destroyer do that other classes do not do (or do less well)?

What does a destroyer group normally do?
What does a destroyer group do that other class groups do not do (or do less well)?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Friday, July 16, 2021 - 06:49 pm: Edit

Well the DD was replaced by the DW in most cases. So they should be interchangeable. Also some DD/DW groups are not even close. Take 3 Klingon F5s vs three Hydran Lancers. The Lancer with St-2s is about the cost of some LCs.

As for what they do in SFB? What do players use them for in F&E?

Space is huge. So was the Pacific and Atlantic back when they uses sailing ships. With out GPS satellites and what not. Frigates were used to carry messages and Mail. The bigger Frigates (Like SFB Destroyers) were out searching for the other countries fleets. Watching the ports and reporting to the fleet if the other fleet left port. To hunt down and kill merchant ships. As well as take out the other countries frigates.

Just a few thoughts.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, July 17, 2021 - 11:58 am: Edit

The problem is that DD (and CL/ DW/ NCL) DID do most of the missions of the Cruisers.

You see it in the fiction (usually a F5).

But you gotta have some cruisers around as muscle and within reasonable range for those tasking that demand a cruiser's capabilities. In some ways the idea of a Destroyer Squadron or Frigate Flotilla is kinda silly in SFB. The Cruiser has some CL/ CW, DD and FFs in various combinations as it's squadron. This is vividly shown in the DOTE orbat in the old CL article. And my compendium... "BATTLEGROUPS"

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/12031/24099.html?

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Saturday, July 17, 2021 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Mike Grafton:

I've read through the linked page, but I'm not sure what's supposed to be vivid to me.

The orders of battle don't really imply the role of a destroyer vs the role of a frigate, or the role of a light cruiser within the fleet.

Or maybe it does and I'm just missing something obvious.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, July 17, 2021 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Shawn Gordon:

The point is that every ship can do pretty much every mission.

The missions are a matter of scale

Take a squadron of Police Cutters.

They can be and often are assigned to escort freighters. Often just one cutter is assigned the mission, but larger convoys or greater threats could see more cutters assigned.

They could be assigned to defend a base. But aside from just happening to incidentally be there (defending a base, battle, sector, star, or stellar) are not going to be a significant portion of the combat power. But a squadron might be assigned to defend a Mobile Base or an FRD (matter of scale, the combat power the enemy would select to assault a Stellar fortress would simply knock a lone police cutter, or even a squadron aside in one volley). But considering the combat power of a commercial platform (negligible) or System Activity Maintenance Station a Police Cutters Squadron might be the defense or the attacking force.

Dogging an enemy ship until a larger ship can show up to kill it.

Screening an otherwise weakly defensed sector to report the presence of an enemy force.

Running down cripples.

Trying to defend cripples (your own) until they can be succored.

Basically, as alluded to in the base mission, almost any ship in SFB might be doing any mission. It is all a matter of scale. Obviously Police Cutters are more likely to cut and run if the opposition they encounter is more than they can handle. (Beam off personnel from the damaged ship so they can fight another day before running.)

But even the cruisers might be assigned any of the missions, just that cruisers are going to be assigned where their greater combat capabilities matter.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Saturday, July 17, 2021 - 02:41 pm: Edit

I see.

This means there is no reason at all to do a destroyer group campaign. If such a campaign were devised, it would be a completely artificial and silly restriction to place on the selected force to be composed of destroyers, or any other class, since in SFB ship classes are defined by relative power, not traditional naval class role.

Okay.

So in that case, could the concept still be saved as a "Squadron Commander's Game" where the player assembles a working squadron (led by a leader ship such as a DDL, FFL, CL, CA, or whatever), and constrained by a BPV limit (say, 300 BPV) and then takes that squadron on a chain of 9 or so missions?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, July 17, 2021 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Shawn Gordon:

There are "administrative" functions (see "First Command" where it is mentioned that the F5s of a Klingon raiding force were all put under the command of the F5C/L and this was noted as unusual, the F5C/L was normally simply an administrative position of the senior F5 Commander). The situation in the story is that the ships were grouped. Consequently, if you can find, not necessarily nine, but a number of missions that make sense you could assemble a campaign. The campaign could include "duels" (or clashes) between the squadrons.

An example would be a Hydran campaign which would include up to seven clashes depending on year (Vudar, Klingon, LDR, Lyran, Andromedan, Jindarian, Borak). Note that the Borak are mentioned for completeness, not requirement, and the Andromedans would be difficult to form a viable force. Depending on year the Vudar and LDR (as well as the Andromedans) would not be available, but the Borak while an "also ran" were fully developed for most time periods. You could also refer to Module C4 for a mystery opponent.

You could add a "base defense" scenario. And a "base attack" scenario. You would have to tailor the toughness of the base to the size of the squadron (again, a police squadron of Gendarmes is not going to attack an X-Stellar Fortress).

While you could "attach" your squadron to some other elements of the fleet for a mission, I would recommend not doing so as there would be too much of a tendency to use the such other elements to "protect" your squadron.

Missions could include prowling through an asteroid field "looking for trouble." Basically a pirate or empire or mining installation is in there.

You could do a raid on a planet to disrupt logistics. Or a raid on a convoy (for the same goal). Conversely you could defend logistics.

The point is that some higher authority has pulled your ships together and sent them on the missions. Then you have to decide what happens if you lose a ship. How repairs will be done. How expendables will be replaced, and so on. As well as what the overall goals of the campaign are.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, July 17, 2021 - 04:19 pm: Edit

NOTE: While there are multiple possible clashes mentioned, your campaign could just have one clash as the climax of the campaign. Essentially the campaign starts and ends during one particularly intense period culminating in the clash during which the squadron conducted a raid on any enemy planet (or a colony the enemy captured from your empire), raids a convoy, attacks a base, rampages through an asteroid field looking for miners, etc., and then confronts an enemy squadron which has been doing the same things.