Archive through July 29, 2021
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
Module K2: More gunboats:
Archive through July 29, 2021
Not sure if this is relevant to this line of conversation, but I vaguely remember a Gorn group for a Battleforce argument.
IIRC, it consisted of a CA (perhaps refitted?) and six FF. The author referred to the Frigates as a sort of pre-PF "PF Flotilla."
While I want to say it was based around Y165.
Again, I don't know if this really fits with this line of conversation, but with the Battleforce discussion for the upcoming Captain's Log, I did a Tholian force consisting of five standard Destroyers and a Destroyer Scout.
The point is, in both cases, a pseudo PF flotilla was created using standard warships. If we REALLY want to create a Gunboat Flotilla with gunboats heavier than standard PFs, the game creators have already given us options for doing so.
My 0.002 Quatloos worth...
Yes, but they don't act like a PF for integrated EW and such. (And yo might want to use a leader, a scout, and then a mix of combat variants.)
so I could have a BH command rating 6 and 6 Snipes. Mind You I could buy a battle group of 3 BH and 3 snipes as well. But there are no snipe Scout are leader variant.
Uhmm I could use a FLG and 6 SNipe P.
Hmmm, at the police level it would be a FLG and 5 POL (LDR = 5 MP + MPS / Lyrans = WPF + 5 MP).
Frigate level is FFL + 4 FF + FFS.
Destroyer level is DDL + 4 DD + DDS.
DW level is DWL + 4 DW + DWS.
and so on …
For Federation, use a FEM +7 x POL.
What fun! Grin.
If you want a snipe leader use a snipe B. If you want a snipe A scout just swap out the plasma. No big deal.
Snipe-A Scout. Snipe... C? Can't use "S;" that was the sublight version. Can't use "E" (for "Electronic Warfare"); that was used for the escort version.
On the other hand, Sparrowhawks used "C" for their scout version. 
The next (obvious?) question is whether the torpedo would be replaced by a single Special Sensor or, because the Plasma-G occupies two slots in Orion option mounts, would the Plasma-G be replaced with TWO.
As an option, what about replacing the trio of weapons on the Snipe-A with two Special Sensors (in the locations occupied by the Phaser-1s on the standard Snipe-A) and a single Phaser-1 (either FA or, possibly, FH; located in the location occupied by the Plasma-G on the standard Snipe-A).
(... Or is that the sort of design that might be expected from the shipwrights of Howard, Fine, and Howard?)
I think one special sensor for the G torp is all you get.
It's not like a SN-A has lots of power for special sensors. Probably not worth putting more than one on it.
So, basically like a PF scout without the dash pods?
Jeff Wile:
No, not like a PF scout. A PF scout can lend o the entire flotilla or to its PFT or lend OEW to an enemy PF. A Snipe Scout could lend to one (1) other ship, and that ship does not have to be part of its original "flotilla" and it can lend OEW to any enemy ship regardless of size class. A Snipe has only seven (7) points of power versus a Romulan PF's nine (9 points of power without the dash packs. It also has far less available power because it has to pay full housekeeping (2.5 points of power) compared to a PF scout only having to pay for its shields (1 point of power). And this does not even compare the differences in speed (Snipe Movement Cost 0.25, PF Movement Cost 0.20).
So a Hypothetical Snipe Scout has to spend 50% of its power just "look like a scout" (2.5 for housekeeping plus 1 to activate its special sensor) meaning it can move Speed 2 (half point of power) and lend three points of EW to one target. A PF scout has to spend two (2) points of power to look like a scout (yes, this means one of its special sensors is not in use), can move Speed 5 and lend six points of EW.
Further, other Snipes in the "flotilla" do not have "free" EW, and Gunboats do, so a scout PFs lent EW is more flexible as it does not necessarily have to lend six points to shift the die rolls, meaning it can move faster on the energy it does not have to lend (or even power the other sensor to at least use it as an anti-drone weapon if not for some other function).
To be fair, a SN has 3 reserve power which can be helpful, more than a PF would have.
But anywho, it doesn't really make sense to put two sensors on it, those things are expensive and the occasional usefulness of a second sensor on such a low powered ship would imo not be worth the cost of the special sensor.
Honestly, with how little power the Snipe has, even one special sensor is kind of silly. If the Romulans have the desire for a small scout, surely a K4 or K5 would be a much better ship to put a special sensor on.
Yes a Snipe scout would be worthless. except in the campaign game I am playing in just to give me a scout for the weapon status role. Still I can use a FLG for that and it has other things I can use as well. Even taking the snipe B and swapping out the G torp for a sensor. It has 9 power over 7 for the snipe A. As well historically when the Snipe B came on line there were already the KFS and SKF. The SEC in Y174.
I am happy with the Scout-Snipe having only one special sensor. As I was writing the last post, I had a vision of the abuses possible; a Battlehawk based scout with four channels.
On the other hand, I can imagine the "Conjectural" two-channel Scout-Snipe playing a (G24.22) role in defending a Romulan fleet against a drone heavy Federation attack fleet (like a carrier battle group) IN A NON-HISTORICAL SCENARIO (shouting for emphasis )!
Jeff Anderson:
That is an awful lot of investment for a minimal and very specialized role and would probably see the ship destroyed long before it ever got the chance to do it. Either by the Gorns, or the Tholians, or the Orions (would doubtless "survive" the ISC and Andromedans simply because none would live long enough to see an ISC or Andromedan) and the Feds do not have that many drone heavy attack fleets, they tend to like "death by photon" although I admit they do have some vicious carrier groups.
SPP, hence the "Conjectural" and "Non-historical scenario."
As a note: there was a Snipe-C in Star Fleet Times 34 (it was a "Battle Frigate Leader", not a scout).
Not having read Star fleet Times... a few details would be appreciated.
What changes to the snipe-B did the Snipe-C have?
You can Purchase SFT 31 - 35 for $5.00. The Romulan Eagle hulls are in #34.
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/star-fleet-times-number-31-number-35
Jeff: picture a Snipe-B with two more phasers up front, an additional box of warp in each nacelle, and a touch more hull and battery. No nimble status, move cost goes up to 1/3, and the landing gear are lost to the additional systems.
Cool.
Thank you Jessica.
While working on something else, I realized there were several F-111 focused carriers. If the Feds had used gunboats, then all of them would have been PFTs, not carriers. The conversion is pretty simple (F-111 mech links -> gunboat mech links; cargo -> repair), but as far as I can tell, the PFT version of these ships have never been done.
Specifically, I am talking about:
- BCS: would carry 6xF-14 and 6xPF
- ACS: would carry 12xF-18B+ and 6xPF
- NDS: would carry 12xF-18B+ and 6xPF
- DCS: would carry 12xF-18B+ and 6xPF
- CVH: would carry 6xPF
- NHV: would carry 6xPF
- ADW: would carry 3xPF (a pair can have a "real" flotilla)
- P-HVL: would carry 6xPF
- GVH: would carry 6xPF
In addition, a set of AuxPFTs wouldn't be out of line, either. (I assume these would be standard AuxPFTs, not versions of their Aux F-111 carriers converted back to carry gunboats.)
I know the NPF and SCSA were done, so they aren't listed. I think the SDS-A was also done, so it isn't listed, either.
I assume no DD or CL based PFTs. By the point the gunboats arrived, the numbers of either hull were limited, and they both had way more valuable variants to be made into. Unless you want to publish designs that are conjectural even in a conjectural setting. (I kinda doubt that.)
In fact, have a whole section in the R2 rules that explicitly outlines what changes are made to the Federation rules and capabilities would happen, if they used gunboats. Obviously, there are no F-111s and they don't get the Third Way. But, what about SWACs? They obviously do get SWACs, as the CVA was made way before gunboats were ever thought of. But do they abandon them? When is that? What fighters and bombers are not made because gunboats made them irrelevant? How hard to the Feds adopt gunboats? Do they use casual gunboats in addition to flotillas?
The point is that the Thunderbolt was introduced into the game a very long time ago and the impact of what that would mean, giving how much the game as evolved since then, is something that is worth exploring.