That's my assessment, too.

It's The Admiral's Game so starting ships are limited. We get two frigate scouts each to use in 8 battles.

Having a 2x2 map would definitely make things more fair.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, October 06, 2022 - 11:53 am: Edit

We're discussing it now. It's clear why the Paravians don't live on the Hydran border. If they did, they'd never have made it past the hatchling phase. Granted, they never actually made it past the hatchling phase but at least they had a chance against the Gorn in the early years.

We're talking about either enlarging the map or hm switching to Feds. Of course, Feds have the same basic problem in that they're all crunch vs. a race that needs to dance but can't.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, October 06, 2022 - 12:13 pm: Edit

We're going to stick with hydrans and do a 2x2 map. The base will start at the corner in 0229 and my ships will start on the 25xx line. That's the same starting distance as SG8 but allows for some freedom on my part. He can still gun it and trap me but I'll at least get a few licks in.

I don't know if that's enough to survive with my QWTs vs. Gatlings, but I'm hoping against hope. I may be able to win an attrition war, and overloads take 6 or 7 gatling pulses to destroy.

I've got a bit of a fighting chance depending on how he handles his fighters.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Thursday, October 06, 2022 - 01:37 pm: Edit

Never more than 24 hexes away from contact…. Yikes, thats three angry tomcats fighting in footlocker that is. (Also, YIKES! This got long, sorry….)

There are a couple of starting points to try, none of which will be fun to play or play against. I don’t mean rule-wise, I mean expenditure of playtime wise. NASCAR or StarCastle.

NASCAR: Run high speed circuits of the map edges and try to bring locally superior firepower to bear on the fighters and take the squardrons down piecemeal with massed phaser volleys. I mean don’t bother with QWTs at all, just high speed and keeping the Phasers charged. If the Hydran doesn’t offer up the fighters for slaughter then you’d need to turn into their fleet and attempt to cripple/pop an escort when you do get into a semi-favorable firing position. Setup up QWTs and shoot them toward the end of the turn at your chosen target and follow the barrage with your fleet in tight formation and phaser boat your way through on the following turn, with high speed and ECM. The Hydran can counter by Star Castling in the hex with the base and then its a stalemate….

StarCastle: Pick a corner and park your entire force there and wait with maximized ECM and bricked up shields and let the Hydran come to you. You surrender maneuver, but at range 24 the base is limited in how much damage its Ph-4’s can hurt you. And just volley fire all QWTs at single targets until the Hydran gets tired of the Pleiades Seeking Weapon Shoot and gets into range to make a move on the Capitol ships, or massed fire on fighters.. The Hydran can counter by Star Castling in the hex of the base and waiting you out.

Either way, pack a lunch, dinner, and maybe even breakfast. About the only think I can readily think of lasting longer than either of those two battle plans would be attacking a Anrdo Starbase on full alert or a Thoilan three ring circus… Its one of those whoever moves first probably looses sorts of scenarios.

The two combinations of tech here is extra nasty for the Paravians. The Hydrans likely have one and a half to two Ph-Gs for every QWT launcher. Frankly, if I were tasked with the goal of eliminating the base, I’d never get within Ph-4 range of the base and siege it out, attacking freighters and sally forces with high speed low drag attacks until the base was out of supply and the defenses were striped. If thats not possible, I’d let my superiors know that without overwhelming numbers, it would be nothing more than a gallant and glorious but short charge the likes of which not seen since the last charge of the Light Brigade.

Frankly, the birds need space to dance around. A single fixed map just feels punitive, to the Paravian technology set.

This got me thinking (dangerous, I know) and just spitballing here, I wonder if a “Bolt” (and later a “Cannonade”) option for QWTs would be a viable way to help the birds out of this kill box. Note: I do not have any notion of what those would look like or how they would work, but one option of firing a QWT in a direct-fire mode might be to allow the QWT launcher to fire as a QC (The issue of range would need addressed as the Y-era Quantum Cannons were limited to range 5) at the moment of firing, similar to plasma. It might also be to assign to hit chances to the existing range brackets and halve the total warhead yield, again in the fashion of plasma weapons. A difference form of adjustment might be to allow the Brain-birds to build in three points of ECM into the torpedoes in the fashion that the Romulans built in three points of ECCM and ATG?

Its an interesting problem for sure, apologies for hijacking the thread for my digression. At this late hour (considering the publication date for C6) I doubt SVC or SPP would be all that receptive to any of these change, on what at best is an exercise in alternative timelines. Though, I could be wrong. Still might be interesting to test giving the QWTs three points of ECM for the fighters to deal with, that would be easiest to playtest. Might bring the QWTs from three Ph3 shots to bring down to four, and depending on how many launchers are in the Paravian fleet, it might end up being enough to balance the Stinger threat. Even then I’d pick a single fighter to attack at a time with almost wasteful amount of phasers, ensuring the attrition is not recoverable with deck crew actions. The more of the Stingers you drop, the easier it will be to overwhelm the capitol ships, and thats probably the only way you’ll peel that onion.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, October 06, 2022 - 02:07 pm: Edit

See my previous post. We agreed to use a 2x2 map so I'll have some room to maneuver but can't keep out of range forever.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Thursday, October 06, 2022 - 04:48 pm: Edit

I missed it while editing the novel I wrote earlier today.

Do let us know how things go.

My best advice is take the fighters, the ships, and the BATS as separate fights as best you can.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, October 06, 2022 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Keep at range, Gatling phasers destroy Quantum Torpedoes while squadron strength quantity of fighter Fusions, double charged OR plenty of Hellbore cannon, and Paravians in serious trouble.

Close range, Gatling phasers may STILL destroy Quantum torpedoes while point blank Fusion beams and Hellbore cannon gut Paravians.

I think the French have a word for it: Omelette.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, October 06, 2022 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Thankfully it's Y175 so there are no warp booster packs. I can keep away from the fighters fairly well as long as I can avoid the corners and keep my speed high. He may park at the base and try to force me to come to him. If so then I'll do strafing runs to pick off fighters one at a time from range 15. It'll take a long time if he castles but it should eventually work. QWTs can overwhelm the ships' gatlings. It takes 5 or 6 pulses to destroy one QWT. 6 if it's an overload.

He may also just put the pedal to the metal to try and corner me. He'd have to leave fighters behind so would be much weaker to overloaded QWTs.

I'm nervously excited. LOL

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Thursday, October 06, 2022 - 07:38 pm: Edit

Ginger, I’ve seen you posit that it takes up to 6 Ph-3 shots to down a QWT. I was under the impression that the first four points knocks off the splash damage (or kills the QWT if the range has expired the splash damage) and another 7 points to knock out the main body (YFQ1.411, YFQ1.412, page 450 Master Rulebook)

Are you halving the inbound phaser fire? The way YFQ1.411 is worded leaves me wondering if it’s straight damage or not. YFQ1.414 states outright that only 11 points of phaser damage will kill any QWT, and that’s just three shots from a Ph-G at close defensive range (1-2, zero for a non-target intercept).

FP1.611 (page 186, Master Rulebook) is the plasma procedure, fractional odd points are cumulative to the total, but only reduce when paired with a matching point while QWTs don’t have enumerated reductions, just two steps, wingless and dead.

If the damage reduction does apply, it makes things interesting for sure, especially when QWTs are unaffected by chaff packs.

Or are you firing at longer ranges?

Have I missed a ruling on this?

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, October 06, 2022 - 07:49 pm: Edit

These are not early years QWTs. They're the modern ones in C6.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, October 07, 2022 - 10:10 am: Edit

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Quote:

This got me thinking (dangerous, I know) and just spitballing here, I wonder if a “Bolt” (and later a “Cannonade”) option for QWTs would be a viable way to help the birds out of this kill box.

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By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, October 07, 2022 - 10:24 am: Edit

I think a half damage bolt option with to-hit numbers like plasma would work fine. You're not doing a lot of damage. Even overloads would only do 3 - 5 damage (depending on how you round off). I'd leave the splash on there to differentiate them from other direct fire weapons, though that might be too good.

You would, of course, have to restrict overloads to range 8 even though the seeking versions can go out to 14.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, October 07, 2022 - 12:30 pm: Edit

If you are going to have bolting QWT, I can't agree to using the plasma to-hit numbers. The plasma bolt to-hit numbers are built on the plasma table. Any bolting for QWT needs to be built on the QWT table. How that looks, I don't know. But it would need to be built from the QWT table, not using a totally different weapons table wedged in sideways.

IMO, YMMV, AFAIK, IANAL, etc.

Also, discussion any potential for bolting QWT should probably go into its own proposal topic, not here. Here should focus on what is.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, October 07, 2022 - 02:18 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Also, discussion any potential for bolting QWT should probably go into its own proposal topic, not here. Here should focus on what is.

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By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, October 07, 2022 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Back to tactics:

The first battle is laid out. My FFV, FFA, and FF vs. his CVE and EH. I've got him beat on BPV value but gatlings vs. QWTs make that equation less simple than it sounds.

Turn 1
I can do speed 13 with standard loads, erratic maneuvers, 3 ECM, and 1 ECCM. Fighters will also go 13, one slower than their max because they each have an EW pod. The basic plan is to get to range 15, launch QWTs, fire phasers at a fighter, and turn away. In no case ill I ever allo the fighter to get to range 10.

Scenario 1: He goes slow
If he stays together he has to go slow. I have 18 QWTs available in the first turn and he'll have 11 gatlings after the fighter dies. It takes 3 gatlings to take out 2 QWTs so my first salvo can push 15 through for 45 damage to the carrier if they've travelled 15-21 hexes. 30 otherwise. I expect he'll have some reinforcement if he's going slow but he can't afford much. It'll either take him out of the fight outright or drop a shield and strip some systems.

He may disengage at this point as he'll be down 4 gatlings.

If I'm reading J1.621 correctly I can land one shuttle on each ship every other impulse. I'll pull them aboard and start rearming them rather than loading my own QWTs. They're ineffective against massed gatlings without having a large stack. The FFA can bring in 2 and the carrier can get the other 4.

Scenario 2: His ships go fast and leave the fighters behind
QWTs won't reach his ships but they'll either force him to veer off or soak up his gatlings. Either way I should be safe enough to pull the fighters on board. If I can arrange a range 15 shot on the fighters I'll send every phaser I've got at one of them but that's much lower priority than keeping the ships at bay. 6 QWTs will fire at one the ships to soak up gatlings. If he shoot at them and preses through 4 will hit and soften up his shields while taking away the majority of his firepower.

Either way, the rest go at his fighters. 3 each at of 4 of them should guarantee some are crippled or killed.

Turn 2
My QWTs will never make it past his gatlings without the help of the fighters. I'll rearm phasers as needed, focusing on having enough firepower for the P-1s. If I as able to fire them all on turn 1 then that's the remainder of my power. If the fighters are on board I'll rearm them as power allows. The primary goal of the turn is to get up to speed 26. Everything else is gravy. I'll need to be going fast to start the range 15 phaser dance.

Discretionary power on the escort and the carrrier will go towards rearming the fighters. Any left over on the frigate will be used to arm QWTs. They'll at least eat a little power and slow him down. All of the ships can do 26, rearm 3 phasers, and have 2 points left over. Or rearm all of their phasers and keep dancing at the expense of reloading the fighters.

future Turns
They all depend on what he's doing. If the first two turns go well I can rinse, lather, and repeat. Slowly rearming the fighters for another massive volley.

Caveat
As always, no plan survives contact with the enemy.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, October 10, 2022 - 11:11 am: Edit

We won't be having our battle. I did the math on the various base assaults. There's no way I'll ever take out a base past all of the gatlings so I conceded. It's hopeless in round 1 when he only has half of his force. It will be utterly impossible once he has everything available and starts constructing more carriers and their escorts.

I probably should have said no to the carrier fleet option. I think I still would have lost because a vast amount of my ability to flood the board with QWTs came from the fighters and their double launches. He'd offered to switch to Feds but I wanted him to be able to fly the fleet he wanted to fly so I declined.

We'll be doing a duel where I play the Paravians using tournament rules. I'm thinking that might have been how they were play-tested because they're much more likely to connect on a fixed map and will be harder to shoot down with their natural ECM. If I can't pull that off then I'll give up on my hopes of making them work well.

It's sad because I think the QWT is one of the coolest weapons in the game and has a lot of potential. I absolutely love the design of it and it pulls to me after decades of playing the standard Alpha races. The problem is how useless it is on an open map battle. If it had a direct fire option it would actually be viable IMO. But that's a topic for a different thread.

If the duel goes well we can try and figure out some scenarios to use in the battles and do the campaign again without fighters and with him flying a different race.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Reading all of the above got me thinking. As I am stuck at home with a bum leg (Workmen's Comp) I took a ISC BATS with a Power Mod and cargo pod.

Then attacked it with a Paravian CC and CA. It is going into turn 5. There are 9 overload QWTs on the map. Launched imp24 turn 4. The base has 9 shield damg. to its no 4. The CC has 6 on its n01. The base is down 2 WW.

Turn 5 the base can Use a WW on the QWTs inbound or fire phasers at them and take some damage. The phaser 4s must be reloaded this turn. Then the second wave will be in coming.

The ships are parked 14 hexes away. Plasma is ready for the BATS. It has Plasma Ds and a S and F. thinking about what is best.,...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Rather than switching to "tournament" rules - although I do wonder if there could be room for standard and/or antiproton Paravian variants as potential future TC types - perhaps it might be an option to consider using historical rules with Middle Years (i.e. "unrefitted") ships on both sides, as a means of trying out the Paravians in cruiser duels against their "historical" Alpha Octant adversaries.

For example, a Paravian heavy cruiser without the APR refit is broadly comparable in BPV to an unrefitted Gorn heavy cruiser. Although an "unrefitted" ISC heavy cruiser, as outlined in the 2016 revision to Module C2, is a somewhat more dangerous opponent.

Plus, as noted earlier in this thread, ships smaller than Size Class 3 can't have PPDs and are more limited in terms of plasma options. So one could try a pre- or post-refit scenario in which both sides are restricted to Size Class 4 ships.

And of course, the quantum wave torpedo can be installed into Orion option mounts in the "Mapsheet P" timelines. So one could either try a "pirate" mission where the Orion raider is equipped with QWTs, or perhaps a "mercenary" mission in which the Orion can offer their firepower to the highest bidder...

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 05:18 pm: Edit

Gregory: I can definitely see the QWT being good against fixed targets. Overloads at long range are very useful in those scenarios.

Gary: we almost invariably play Y175 or later. I can see QWTs being better in earlier years where ships are slower but I was hoping to make them useful in the modern eras.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, October 18, 2022 - 11:29 am: Edit

If anything, the "unrefitted" Gorn and ISC ships might be even faster, since they each still have their full power suites and fewer weapons to spend that power on...

Still, it's worth bearing in mind that, in the case of the ISC at least, their plasma-F refits are quite uncommon prior to Y179 - and even then, a few of the earliest prototypes had only one -F on each side.

So if you want to set a scenario in Y175, a Star Cruiser would either have a BPV of "only" 173 (minus the cost of the "full" set of -Fs) - or perhaps a BPV of 177, if one assumes the cost of the "prototype" -Fs to be +4 rather than the "full" plasma-F refit's +12.

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Alternatively, I recall an Omega setup in another thread where your group set a BPV limit for each side.

In which case, a limit of, say, 200 BPV would net you a pair of Paravian war destroyers (at 198 points), or perhaps a heavy cruiser and a frigate with their respective APR refits installed [at (120+2) + (73+1) = 196 points].

That might be a more balanced approach than trying to duel against a fully-(or perhaps mostly-)refitted Gorn BC or ISC CA in that time period.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, December 28, 2022 - 12:45 pm: Edit

I'm in the middle of a campaign game as a proxy captain running Paravians vs. Feds. It's a large 81x81 map and I'm constantly reminded of the major pain point of QWTs: speed destroys them. The battle is almost over so any advice here won't be much use for it but... Got any thoughts on how to combat massed proximity shots against ships that can go 24 and still arm the big guns?

Ships start off almost 60 hexes apart so "charge their face" isn't a valid option at the start.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, December 28, 2022 - 01:02 pm: Edit

Off the top of my head, a couple thoughts.

ECM kills Photon torpedoes. Even with scouts present, those Fed ships able to fly 24 while Prox loading Phots will likely be slowed by having to power ECCM.

Phots are every other turn weapons. As someone who's recently found himself facing "Every Other Turn" firepower with a load-out that fires every turn, (), I would suggest taking advantage of the off-turn to move more aggressively as a way to try and change the tactical situation.

In this particular tactical situation, it might be possible to bully the Feds into a corner during the off-turn; even on an 81x81 map. Yes, it'll mean spreading your ships out, but the Feds may still feel intimidated because they have empty tubes.

By Joseph Jackson (Bonneville) on Wednesday, December 28, 2022 - 01:45 pm: Edit

How are the Paravian turn modes? Most of my fighting against Feds was with klingons and Kzinti. Getting in close and out maneuvering them was usually my best bet. Speed 24 is awfully fast. If they're keeping that pace up, getting behind them shouldn't be too hard.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, December 28, 2022 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Paravians have better turn modes than Klingons do.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Wednesday, December 28, 2022 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Proximity photons only do 4 points of damage and cannot be fired at ranges less than 9 and are still good only to a range of 30. As you have to record that you are firing a proximity photon (E4.31) this will force the Federation captain to make a decision at energy allocation.

I am assuming the Federation has a CA and Frigate also, so you are only going to be facing 6 photons or a total of 24 points of proximity damage or about 16 points average.

You can launch 6 QWT's each turn, which move at speed 32, if you can get into range 8 your QWTs should be able to hit, plus as has been pointed out if you can corner the Federation your chances of hitting are good.

Between both ships you have 12 control channels which means you can have two turns of QWTs on the board at any given time. If it does not look like one of the QWTs is going to hit drop control and then launch a new QWT.

If the Federation decides to fire proximities and you can get into range 8 you should have at least one turn at close range before the captain can reload the photons as normal photons.