Any ideas beyond the Q-ships?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, October 23, 2023 - 04:17 pm: Edit

One question, will these minor empires use regular freighters such as are in use by the Federation, Klingons, Kzinti etc, or will they be of some other alternative?

I ask, because the standard is mix and match between command module, drive module and cargo pods, modified by skids and duck tails.

If they use the same, the modules can be tailored to many different combinations.

If these minor empires use something else, it will, by definition be less effective and likely be more expensive to operate.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 23, 2023 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Does this discussion only cover "modern" (GURPS Prime Directive Tech Level 12) units, or are X1-ships, Early Years, and/or "National Guard" hulls on the table here also?

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So far as I'm aware, the Borak do not yet have a corvette, any "police" hulls (police cutter, police flagship, heavy police ship, etc.), a heavy (war) destroyer, a light dreadnought, a battleship, a battleship carrier, a stellar domination ship, nor a light monitor.

Beyond this, perhaps a heavy cruiser mauler and a war cruiser mauler, in the event a simulator Borak Star League joins the Coalition during the General War?

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A few of the items for the "lost empire" Carnivons have been posted elsewhere.

For one, they might do with a "Middle Years" dreadnought, akin to the Klingon C6 or Lyran Royal Tiger DNE.

Another request thread was for a Carnivon SRV. With possibly an "improved" version of the SR (and SRV), for use against Andromedan RTN nodes?

Also, perhaps heavy cruiser mauler and war cruiser mauler hull variants, for scenarios in which the "on-map" Carnivon Empire joins the Coalition during the General War?

One question is whether or not the HDW should be a "one-off", in terms of having three engines, or if other three-engine designs (such as heavy police ships, battle frigates, new heavy cruisers, etc.) should be made to exist.

Would there be scope for a corvette design also?

Or some dedicated Carnivon base SSDs?

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For the "lost empire" Paravians:

As with the potential for "three-engine" Carnivons, the question is whether or not to have the Paravian HDW be a "one-off" four-engine Paravian design, or if they in turn would deploy other four-engine hulls - such as a heavy police ship, a battle frigate, or other such designs.

As a "Coalition" empire, the "Mapsheet P" Paravians could perhaps be given a few mauler variants, for use against Gorn and ISC bases.

Beyond this, the Paravians might do with an SRV and a corvette. And a few dedicated base SSDs.

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In timelines where the WYN Cluster develops "normally" (as in, it is not taken over by the Carnivons), there would also be the potential for a few WYN-Carnvon and/or WYN-Paravian ships - or perhaps even the odd "WYN-Borak" and/or "WYN-Peladine" design...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, October 23, 2023 - 04:59 pm: Edit

If players will buy it, Gary, I will print it.

Mike West cannot stop doing SSDs so maybe if we give him something useful he'll stay off the streets.

That HDW is unique. I'm not going to print 3-engine versions of existing ships.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 23, 2023 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Fair enough.

Although, personally, I would still prefer to keep Module C6R focused on the "lost empire" Carnivons and Paravians: in my view, there is enough for just those two empires to fill a second module's worth.

I'd rather the Borak and Peladine be handled in their own would-be "Module C7" product series, in which they didn't have to compete for SSD space with "lost empire" Paravian and Carnivon designs.

But, if ADB deems otherwise, well and good.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, October 23, 2023 - 05:25 pm: Edit

In fairness, someone asked about the Q-ships, so I made them, expecting them to just be Newsletter fodder. (I mean, seriously, how many people actually use Q-ships that often?)

One other consideration is that the Carnivon and Paravians are pretty much completely filled out for their GW-era ships. Probably even their MY-era ships, too, as they have CLs and DDs in addtion to their CWs and DWs. Plus, they have all of their "newer" classes, too, like the SDS, BBV, various DNs, HDW, CF, CWF, and other randomness.

Obviously, we don't need to worry about EY-era stuff for the Carnivons and Paravians because, duh. But I do not believe they have any X-era stuff, so that's all fair game.

I haven't waded through the Peladine or Vudar recently, but I think their pretty full, too. I imagine the Vudar are missing all of the "big stuff" because they didn't make them, so there is that. Also, I forgot to check on the Borak. Don't know what they have or are missing, as I haven't looked in quite a while.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 23, 2023 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Early Years ships don't need to be worried about here, but "L-era" (local defence/"National Guard") hulls might be on the table.

In the case of "lost empire" Paravian L-ships, I would "standardize" their interior configurations (swapping out the NWO boxes) - but keep their Turn Mode restrictions (as this is something which is noted as only being fixed with the amount of "modern" Paravian warp technology).

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If the "lost empire" Paravians and Carnivons are allowed to field more "extra engine" hulls, that would lead to a fair number of new base hull and mission variant SSDs to consider drawing up.

But, if either or both empires are to be prevented from going down that design path, fair enough.

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Between X1-ships, L-ships, "extra engine" ships, some of the "missing" hulls and mission variants noted above, plus some bases and support units (such as standard and light monitors), that's a healthy number of SSDs just for the two "lost empires" from C6.

And perhaps even more, if C6R were to wait until after Module X2 is done - which might allow for would-be X2-ships for both of these empires to be worked up and added here...

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, October 23, 2023 - 07:21 pm: Edit

For the record, it turns out I had checked the Borak before, and they already have their Q-ships published in E3. I do still have to see what they may be "missing".

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Forgive me for pipping up without much of anything meaningful to add.

I'm excited to learn a C6R is being considered. I'd love to see more about the Mapsheet-P Paravians, and if we get to see X-tech birdies even better (I've got some ideas on that front though I know this isn't the venue or time for them)

Rather than specific ships classes to include, some of the questions that come to my mind are, will the Paravians get Sabot QWTs? What would the Paravian's do in response to ECM plasma? I realize that is not the question SVC brought up, which is why I started this post with a plea for mercy.

For the record, I would probably buy a product designed to 'top off' C6 with all of the ship classes and extras that there was not room for in C6.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 - 03:15 pm: Edit

I don't really have a problem with doing C6R and C7 if that's how the cookie crumbles (once we have the complete list of what we need). I guess we could even include the North Polar Alliance if you wanted to.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Okay, so here is version 1 of my attempt to draw up a list of "lost empire" Paravian SSDs for Module C6R:

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First-Generation X-Ships
CCX
CAX
CWX
DWX
FFX
SRX
CWPX
CWSX
CSVX
HDWX
DWSX

= 11.

On the one hand, given that the baseline CWP has no quantum wave torpedoes on the hull proper, whereas the baseline HDW has three, I would sooner suggest focusing on an X1-tech version of the latter in terms of production - not least if being used to pursue Andromedan RTN nodes.

On the other hand, given how "aggressively" the Paravians are known to operate their survey cruisers, I would see them motivated to deploy X1-tech versions in a similarly forward manner.

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First-Generation X-Bases
SFX (2 pages)
SBX (2 pages)
STX
BTX
BSX
GBDX-QWT

= 6+2 (8).

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Local Defence Ships
LCA
LCL
LDD
LFF
LCV
LDE
LSR
LRMS

= 8.

As noted earlier, each of these ships should, in my view, retain the Turn Mode limitations of their Early Years counterparts.

Also, given the "aggressive" use of SRs on the Gorn and ISC borders, the "Mapsheet P" Paravians might well need an LSR or two to help expand their holdings over in the "off-map" Farnest region.

Elsewhere, I requested W- and/or Y-era Raid Motherships to be considered for a future Early Years product. Should such units be added to the game system at some point, and if they happened to have the same Turn Mode and Move Cost advantages while carrying pods as the "modern" Raid Motherships in Module C6 do, then it would make sense for their service lives to be extended in this manner - at least for transport duties away from the Gorn and ISC borders.

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Three-engine Ships
BBL
DNM
CCH
SRV
CAM
CWM
ACS (SSD is in CL48)
CSV (SSD is in CL48)
VT

= 9.

To clarify, the "-M" for the DNM is for "medium", whereas the "-Ms" for the CAM and CWM are for "mauler".

Presumably the VT would have a trio of 3-box warp engines, and a Move Cost of 1/4 - putting it in the same category as the Federation VT in Captain's Log #54.

And on a side note: might a Paravian heavy command cruiser perhaps make for the basis of a viable Paravian tournament cruiser?

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Four-engine Ships
NFF
PFF
FFB
NCL
HCW
NCA
NBC
NBB

= 8.

It might be best to decide which - if any - of these four-engine hulls should be added to the list, before then working out how many "mission variants" and/or X1-ship incarnations of the same would follow.

In my view - such as it is - the "new frigate" would have four 3-box engines; the "police frigate" and "battle frigate" four 4-box engines; the "new light cruiser" would in essence be a non-modular equivalent of the current HDW, with four 6-box engines; the "heavy war cruiser" would have the same two 8-box and two 6-box engines as the ISC HCW in Module R12; the "new heavy cruiser" would have four 8-box engines; the "new battlecruiser" would have four 10-box engines and a Move Cost of 1.25 (making it equivalent to the Seltorian light dreadnought); while a "new battleship" would have four 15-box warp engines.

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Bases
SFB (2 pages)
SB (2 pages)
STB
BTS
BS
BSC

= 6+2 (8)

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Support Units
MON
LMN
PTC

= 3

I'm sure I'm missing others which could be added here, room permitting.

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So, at first glance, that is... 55 pages' worth of SSDs.

If one starts adding in "mission variants" of some of the proposed 4-engine hulls (scout, commando, survey, etc.), and any civilian units I missed at first counting, that's getting to be a large number of SSDs.

By comparison's sake, the "lost empire" Paravians have 67 pages' worth of SSDs in Module C6 proper.

Of course, this is only a first attempt at a list. There's always room for a better one!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, October 24, 2023 - 11:05 pm: Edit

I could see doing an EY version of C6 at some point, and of C7 if we do that.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 - 05:57 am: Edit

Seltorian
AW	A10
AWP	A10
BBL	COMM #78	NOT A FAST SHIP
LTT	A2
DSX	A8
FFT	A9
HWX	?	MISSING CAMPAIGN
BBF	?	MISSING CAMPAIGN - FAST BATTLESHIP - 1 BOOM
BB	?	MISSING CAMPAIGN - 2 BOOMS
BBH	?	SUPER BB - 3 BOOMS
VUDAR
DNL	A8
DNH	A9
CC	A1
HWX	?
DWG	A12
FCR	A4
FFX	A13
FFT	A11
FFS	A12
WYN
LTT	A10
CWL	A1
CWS	?	MISSING CAMPAIGN
DWL	?	ADDED IN F&E - CW
DWSX	?	ADDED IN F&E - CW
OBRC(OFB)	A3
OCRC(OFC)	A2
OLRS	?	ADDED IN F&E - CW
ZCM(PBZ)	A918
KD5(PBK)	A917
FPL	A4
RFF	A9
GFF	A8
SDD	A7
SFF	A6
IDX	A5
TG	?	ADDED IN F&E - CW
BB		MISSING CAMPAIGN
BBV		MISSING CAMPAIGN
BBS		MISSING CAMPAIGN
BCH		MISSING CAMPAIGN
BCV		MISSING CAMPAIGN
BCS		MISSING CAMPAIGN
BCP		MISSING CAMPAIGN
LDR
DWT	A6
FFT	A5
H-RN	A4
H-PGC	A3
H-LN	A2
H-DG	A1
BBV		MISSING CAMPAIGN
BBS		MISSING CAMPAIGN
DNV		MISSING CAMPAIGN
DNS		MISSING CAMPAIGN
TG		MISSING CAMPAIGN
CWG		MISSING CAMPAIGN
CWE		MISSING CAMPAIGN
DDG		MISSING CAMPAIGN
DDE		MISSING CAMPAIGN
DDP		MISSING CAMPAIGN
FFS		MISSING CAMPAIGN
FFG		MISSING CAMPAIGN
FFE		MISSING CAMPAIGN
FFX		MISSING CAMPAIGN
POG		MISSING CAMPAIGN
POT		MISSING CAMPAIGN

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 - 08:34 am: Edit

At this time of typing, the Early Years material for both the Paravians and Carnivons is to be found in SFB Module Y1, Module Y2, and Module Y3.

Should a "Module Y4" be up for development someday, that might be a fitting place to add any "missing" W- and Y-era ships for either empire.

For that matter, perhaps Y4 could also be the place to formally publish any would-be Early Years Borak and/or Peladine ships? Both the Borak and Peladine were "historical" empires prior to their respective conquests by the Hydrans and Lyrans. Further, the more "real" ships which can go into Y4, the more room would be left for their "what-if" ships over in Module C7.

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As for the Vudar - and for other empires which had "real" ships in the Alpha Octant during the General War era:

I'd rather those be added in future R-modules, if possible: be it R13, R14, or what have you.

As for first-generation X-ships for such empires: perhaps those could be featured in Module X1B?

Perhaps the Early Years Vudar could be set aside for Module Y4 as well.

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For the Seltorians, there is also the option of adding one or more of their "home galaxy" designs to a potential M81 module.

However, I'd be wary of giving them "extra-large" booms and secondary hulls outside of the simulators. Historically-speaking, the Tholians would not have tolerated one of their enforcer species (even the genetically-engineered Seltorians) possessing a "line" ship equal to their own NBB prior to the Revolt. The Battlewagon and Assaultwagon already serve as their Revolt-era "siege engines". While the post-Revolt Seltorian Suzerainty is noted as not being the most innovative of empires, making it less likely that they'd draw up their own "new" designs (much less construct the fleet yards needed to build them) by themselves.

That said, if one were to draw up simulator "super-heavy" booms and secondary hulls (with each warp engine having 15 boxes apiece), this could lead to the "double-boom" battleship and "triple boom" super battleship (With a Move Cost of 2.5) suggested above. However, I'd argue that the "single-boom" hull would not be a "fast" ship, but rather be something akin to a new dreadnought.

As with the other "three-boom" hulls, presumably even in the simulators the super battleship would require outside empire assistance, in order to provide the dynamic warp balance studies needed to field it.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 - 11:38 am: Edit

While we have a good amount of ships for both Paravians and Carnivrons in C6, we have fewer ships available for other minor powers from the E- and F- series books. Perhaps some fleshing out for them?

Are there any Jindarian "Rock-Hulled SC-4" ships?

WHAT IF the Vudar or Borak were major enough powers to build BB class ships? (Peladine already had them presented)

Given the higher rate of sanity loss for smaller ships, perhaps the Nicozians built DN or BB type ships?

By David Finan (Bbanzai) on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 - 12:36 pm: Edit

When it comes to the Paravian, I would love to see somthing detaling there flight from the Alpha sector, their arrival in Omega and what their ships became. I have been working on some stuff for it as the whole story, and journey intrests me, along with the potential of an interesting mini/ full campaign for the journey.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Wednesday, October 25, 2023 - 07:05 pm: Edit

For Carnivons and Paravians: Heavy command cruisers, heavy war cruisers, heavy police ships, new heavy cruisers.
Generic units: stat base, battle station, base station, monitor, auxiliary carriers and PFTs.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, October 26, 2023 - 01:39 pm: Edit

I agree that seeing more data on the Paravians of Omega would be welcome - to include how they would interact with the playtest Zosman Marauders, another of "Omega's Lost Futures" awaiting formal publication.

Indeed, much as the playtest antiproton variants offered in Captain's Log #54 built upon the SSDs offered in SFB Module C6 - some of which have already made the jump to ADB's Shapeways storefront - I'd be curious to see if any of the proposed "lost empire" Paravian material in Module C6R could in turn be "double-dipped" for use by the Omega-Paravians later on.

Even so, it might be best to save the full story of the flight to the Omega Octant for a separate Omega-focused SFB product - and/or for a future issue of Captain's Log magazine - so as to keep the focus here on the various "Mapsheet P" potentialities in the Alpha Octant.

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Indeed, one key point I hope can be addressed in C6R is how the ISC are affected by "early contact" with the Paravians.

Much as Module R4J offers an alternate MSC and R-section data for the "Shadow of the Eagle" Romulans, I'd argue that the impact on the evolution of the ISC fleet would be no less dramatic.

Not least since, with the Concordium being dragged into the General War by the Romulans and Paravians, there'd likely be no Pacification Campaign - and, thus, a very different starting point for the Andromedan War than was encountered by the ISC historically...

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, October 26, 2023 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Gary, before going totally wild on various alternative histories, do remember that the point of most of these alternative histories is to construct "the same, but" scenarios. So, "Carnivons don't die, but the surrounding powers are basically the same" or "Romulans get early warp, but the surrounding powers are the same". The point is not to make a change and have the whole galaxy be different. The point is to make a change in one empire, but keep the rest the same.

Why take this approach? Because if the only thing that changes is the one empire, then that one empire can be the entire focus, and everything else basically stays "the same" meaning that no technology changes and any differences can be described in a single page. If, however, everything changes, then not only does that one empire have to change, but everything around it has to change, too. That means three, four, or five completely changed empires. If you have one empire change, maybe you can get it done. (Like C6 or R4J.) Change a bunch of empires in a way that is all interconnected and it isn't going to happen because the project is too big. It will never get done.

So, no, the ISC is not substantially changed by "early contact" with the Paravians. Maybe their history changes (like explained in the story), but their technology does not outside of modified YIS dates. Why? Because the story is about the Paravians, not the ISC. If it is about both the Paravians *and* the ISC, the story isn't getting told. If it is about the Paravians *or* the ISC, then maybe the story can be told. As it turns out, yes, the Paravian story was told, and, no, the ISC didn't substantially change.

There has been a single exception to this that I am aware of: the Reflections alternative timeline. But that only works because everything outside the Romulan Republic is done "off-the-shelf". Yes, the pirates are now Paravians and the Federation uses PFs. But literally every non-Romulan ship needed already exists and is in the game. If that couldn't be done, then that alternative history would not have been included.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that by keeping the focus on a single empire you can get your idea done. It probably won't be. What I am saying is that not keeping the focus on a single empire guarantees your idea will never be done.

Something to keep in mind.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, October 26, 2023 - 03:52 pm: Edit

I don't want to go too far down this line of discussion in this thread: the specifics as they pertain to the ISC should be talked out over in the thread linked to in my previous post.

But I will say that the impact of the "lost empire" Paravians and Carnivons are profoundly different - even in the context as provided in Module C6.

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The "western" Alpha Octant empires are all part of the same theatre of operations by the time the "lost empire" Carnivon ships in Module C6 enter service. The only difference is which of those "western" empires exists: in one timeline, the Usurper sets himself up within the WYN Cluster as normal, with the "Carnivon Empire" being one of four adjacent realms he and his successors have to worry about. Whereas in the other timeline, the Usurper is too busy being dead to worry about such things, as the "Cluster Carnivons" are the ones making plans to deal with the "outside" empires instead.

In both cases, the various YIS dates and technologies for the "western" empires are unaffected - save perhaps to decide to what extent the Usurper's WYNs might make use of Carnivon Empire-sourced disruptor cannons. So the real changes are political, not technological.

I do still like the idea of a new timeline in which the Klingons ally with the Carnivon Empire against both the Kzintis and the Lyrans. Which of course, would be a good excuse for the "lost empire" Carnivons to gain access to mauler technology...

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In contrast, the presence of the "lost empire" Paravians by default triggers a much broader set of reactions - some outlined in Module C6 itself, and others which could perhaps be explored elsewhere.

The Gorns are, ironically, the least affected by this, since their adoption of "modern" warp technology more or less ran parallel with the "western" Alpha Octant empires even prior to First Contact with the Federation. Although, the "Mapsheet P" Gorns might have reason to deploy early dreadnoughts, rather than leaving them on the drawing boards.

The Romulans are more significantly affected. Do they use the same "early warp" ships seen (and provided revised SIT listings for) in Module R4J? Might they be stuck at sub-light speeds until the Treaty of Smarba is signed? Or, might they instead import Paravian blueprints and build those under licence, and perhaps later draw up Paravian-influenced equivalents to the Hawk-series? Or might they have they been conquered by the Klingons by then, with their place being taken over by the Imperial Klingon Marches from Captain's Log #44?

Actually, I'd wonder if the Klingons and Paravians might work better together tactically-speaking than the Paravians do with the Romulans...

As for the ISC: again I want to divert more detailed discussion to the other thread. But even if they use the same tactical technologies (plasmas, PPDs, etc.) as they do in the historical timeline, the ways in which they make use of them is profoundly affected by the manner in which they are dragged out of their "splendid isolation".

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Which, of course, is part of the point.

One key reason why the "Mapsheet P" Paravians are worth exploring in the first place - and, as it happens, why they are so much easier to make work at a Federation and Empire level when compared to either variety of Carnivons - is that their very presence triggers dramatic responses among the surrounding empires.

To answer your question, the story of the "Mapsheet P" Paravians is, by default, also the story of the empires they fight.

How much of that story can be told in Module C6R, and how much needs to wait for other venues, is another matter...

By Dal Downing (Rambler) on Thursday, October 26, 2023 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Gary the simple answer is its a non issue. SVC or Mike West will let us know if they want to tinker with any of the timelines. Til then we just need to figure out what's missing from current publications.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, October 26, 2023 - 10:20 pm: Edit

I really do not want to do more alternate timelines.

For what it's worth, I don't think early contact with the Paravians would change the ISC at all. They would regard them as monsters of some unknown sort, not a neighboring empire.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, October 27, 2023 - 09:02 am: Edit

As long as it wasn't the Lizard ISC seen on the viewscreen, it should be fine.

Dunno how they would react to the cat guys.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, October 27, 2023 - 10:27 am: Edit

In at least one of the alternate histories, it *was* the lizard ISC guy seen by the Paravians on the screen. It was immediate hostility. Ergo why the ISC would view them pretty much as monsters. The Paravians are always on the attack and don't communicate or negotiate.

Honestly, I really think that the Paravian attitudes would even grate on the Romulans, too. The Romulans want to dominate, not exterminate. The Paravians' utter devotion to genocide would likely end up being very off-putting to the Romulans. They might do expedient short-term deals with the Paravians, but I don't see a long term alliance or partnership. The Paravians are just that repugnant. The Romulans do have *some* standards!

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, October 27, 2023 - 11:18 am: Edit

In the playtest Paravian material for F&E in Captain's Log #48, the Romulans have the ability to lease access to the "off-map" Paravian Farnest region - akin to how, in the historical timeline, the Klingons lease access to the "off-map" Lyran Far Stars Duchy.

Bear in mind that dramatic differences in priorities between Coalition partners are nothing new.

While the Klingons had no direct stake in what the Lyrans and Kzintis did to the Carnivons during the Early Years, they do have an interest in what happens to the Kzinti Hegemony during the Four Powers War and during the General War.

Similarly, once the Torch expedition showed up, there would once again be a difference in terms of what the Klingons would prefer to do with the Holdfast Sphere, and what their Seltorian "guests" had in mind...

And even the historical Treaty of Smarba would eventually have its own sell-by date.

And yet, while the Klingons no doubt expected there to be some need to enforce their preferred outcome on each front, this did not prevent the Empire from holding up their part of the Coalition for as long as it was deemed useful for them to do so.

(As for the Romulans: per Prime Directive Romulans, the various "feline empires" are seen by them as being barely sentient savages - though they are careful to keep this opinion to themselves when dealing with their nominal Lyran allies...)

This of course is not solely limited to the Coalition: the Federation somehow found it within itself to offer large-scale support to the Kzintis, despite knowing all too well about the latter's xenocidal history. Indeed, it's noted that as the Alliance succeeded in clearing the "on-map" Hegemony as far as the old Kzinti-Lyran border, the UFP made it clear that they would not support a Kzinti attempt to seek revenge on the Lyran Red Claw Duchy - not least when there was still a war to be waged against the Klingon Empire.

Similarly, the Romulans and "Mapsheet P" Paravians no doubt see one another as eventual adversaries: on the Romulan side, the principle of Kiay ri-ha-nai, or "Unifying Duty", demands no less. Yet until or unless the Gorns and ISC are defeated, both sides would be driven by a combination of expediency and necessity to counter the Gorn-ISC Alliance (as stated to exist in at last one C6 timeline) with a Coalition of their own (as also noted in the same timeline).