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	Archive through October 27, 2023	25		08/05 10:09am

This thread could use more discussion.

It seems to me that there should be a few more Carnivon and Paravian ships. The gap between 160 and 190 or so should have a few ships to enable them to meet races that have ships in this range. Gary Carney suggested Heavy Command Cruisers for them. I realize there is a similar gap at this range for some of the non-plasma races.

Also, though this might be beating a dead horse, redoing the Nicozians and adding a lot of ships would add to the game. They really are different. Years ago a friend and I did a lot of playtesting for them, but whole project seems to have been dropped.

Any thoughts?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, August 04, 2025 - 03:56 pm: Edit

The question is what ships could be made that would exist there? A CCH or NCC is where cruisers top out short of BCHs. Adding a ship to meet an arbitrary BPV is a non-starter. Ships are designed according to the specific empire’s design ethos and the established in-setting engineering limits - and BPV happens to fall out of that. The CCH or NCC would certainly better than the CC, but it’s very unlikely to be *that* much better.

The issue you are seeking to address per your post in the CL 55 thread - “my group favors ships in the 170-180 BPV range” - seems like it would be better addressed within the group. Say “Hey, I wanna give the Carnivon CC a whirl. It’s 161 BPV after refits and with fast death bolts - who wants to bring some comparable?” If no one is willing to play something other than those aforementioned favored ships, that’s a deeper problem. Or look at ways to balance: you get to bring an MRS or a casual interceptor on a mech-link.

And finally: a roughly 10% spread in point totals isn’t really that significant, and (S2.20)-A accounts for uneven forces.

By Stephen E Parrish (Steveparrish) on Tuesday, August 05, 2025 - 09:25 am: Edit

There is a gap in the Carnivon ship's BPV. That is, there are almost no non-carrier ships between 160-190. I realize that there is a similar gap in some of the non-plasma races. However, it would be useful to have a few options in fighting some of the other races. Gary Carney suggested a Heavy Command Cruiser, for example.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, August 05, 2025 - 09:51 am: Edit

You are just repeating your stance, not addressing anything I said. I explicitly addressed not only the CCH possibility, but the NCC as well.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, August 05, 2025 - 10:09 am: Edit

Alex, I agree with your suggestions.

Both practical and helpful.

But, in Stephens defense, (not that he necessarily needed a defense…) a lot of new players (at least those new to the game) go to theG annex(of whatever version they might have) and look specifically to only the BPVs.

It takes experience to realize that any vanilla ship can be materially improved with Commanders Options or even upgrading a shuttle or (where available) improving a weapon (drone speed, for example, available for drone using empires.)

Sadly, Death Bolts do not have the same opportunity for upgrades that Drones have, but that is part of the “flavor” that makes the various Empires fun to play.

By Stephen E Parrish (Steveparrish) on Tuesday, August 05, 2025 - 11:12 am: Edit

Alex and Jeff. Sorry for the confusion. I attempted to post my thought yesterday, August fourth, but didn't see it posted. I also didn't see Alex's following post. So this morning I made the second post, still not seeing for whatever reason my earlier post and Alex's. Now I see everything. You answer is correct. So I apologize for the confusion, but honestly, I didn't see the posts from yesterday.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 05, 2025 - 11:22 am: Edit

Not a problem, Stephen.

There really isn't a solution for the 161-179 gap. CCHs are as big as cruisers can get, and battlecruisers are 180+. Nothing fits in between, but you can easily cover the gap with commander's options and weapons alternatives.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, August 05, 2025 - 12:32 pm: Edit

Stephen,

No worries, the Internet do be like that sometimes!

That said, Paravian and Carnivon CCH + (some other class) would be dandy to see in a Captain’s Log ahead of a future C6R or the like .

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, August 05, 2025 - 01:15 pm: Edit

No sweat, Stephen, it happens.

That said, it should also be pointed out that all empires sometimes have more CCH or BCH missions than they have hulls to fill them with.

The other option is to assign three police ships ((or other ES /escort type hull) or even a DD+CL or two CL hulls.

It can be a bit of overkill, but then not every empire went to the trouble of “Nerfing” their destroyers, like the Federation did when they downgraded nearly two thirds of all their destroyers from four photons to two.

I expect Dale McKee is still torked off about it.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, August 05, 2025 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Jeff, the point of the exercise here is (evidently) 1v1 duels, so “take a couple of smaller ships” isn’t addressing the issue.

Also the Federation didn’t downgrade anything, we just translated more of the source tapes and found the DD(M) was the pattern built and put into standard service, and the original four-photon DDs were a handful of speciality ships and not actually representative of the class. ;)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, August 05, 2025 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Agreed, Alex.

But the problem is limited options.

Often, new players are brought in to the game by more experienced players.

So, if the need is for a newbie player to learn how to use a big ship (CCH), then having the more experienced player fun upt to several small ships shouldn’t be ruled out.

Sadly, we will have to disagree about the DD(M).

I am wholeheartedly with Dale McKee on this one. (I know we had a disagreement on another thread…but that was me playing devils advocate. I will argue almost anything with any body. And I don’t charge for it!)

If I had one last battle to play in Star Fleet Battles, before I hang up my gamers cap, I would rather do it on the bridge of my favorite Federation lollypop!

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, August 05, 2025 - 11:25 pm: Edit

In fairness, it is entirely in character for the "lost empire" Carnivons to use a "wolf pack" approach. As in, to field two or three smaller ships against a single, larger ship - even in "duel" encounters.

Indeed, the Early Years Carnivons were also presented as such.

So while I would indeed welcome CCHs for the "lost empire" Paravians and Carnivons, I would advise not being shy about offering to field, say, a couple of war destroyers - or a war destroyer and a frigate, perhaps - in order to go after a lone enemy ship in such-and-such a BPV price range.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, August 06, 2025 - 12:14 am: Edit

As long as we are now talking about “fairness”, it is probably worth noting that the tactics involved with what amounts as a small squadron are entirely different than one large ship.

Pack tactics are more about saber dancing (substitute Death Bolts for drones) and trying to defeat an enemy with a thousand slashes instead of one alpha strike after another (preferably all on the same shield facing !)

Alpha strikes by three small ships vs one big ship can be hit or miss depending on the die rolls.

If the Carnivons can land a significant number of Death bolt hits, eventually, a CCH will succumb, eventualy.