Archive through August 01, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: New Product Development:
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DNR - Federation Dreadnought Razee conversion.:
Archive through August 01, 2004
I may be thinking of someone else, but Baronov was voted out of office in a humiliating defeat in Y174, ushering in 12 years of the other party which lost back to the Buckner-Baranov party in Y186. See CL28. Perhaps it was a case of too little, too late?
Buckner was something of a fuzzy-brained idealist, so the idea that he didn't even know how many DNs the Federation had (or what could be done with them) is reasonably consistent. It was Buckner who wouldn't build up star fleet before the war because he didn't want to provoke the Klingons. It was Buckner who wanted to bail out of the war at the darkest hour. The idea that this might have been part of Buckner's plan seems plausible, even if the plan wasn't. He probably had a staffer who thought he knew more about naval design than he did who came up with the details. No prototype, but an R13 never were, could be.
So we're looking at the "Unionist" party is the anti war /dove party of federation politics?
Yeah, prevoius fiction made it sound like Baranov was the Churchill figure.
From CL 17, Page 4
"For reasons that are not entirely clear, the peace conference collapsed into a wild melee and Vice Chairman Baranov succeeded Buckner.
Barano, a human dynamo of energy who had made a fortune in industry before retiring to run for public office, inspired the military command with new confidence and announced that nothing would be acceptable short of victory. While Baranov had no military experience at all, he was a quick study, and in his autobiography To Preserve the Federation, he emphasized that his policy was to let the military plan the operations within overall strategy directives from the council. (This contrasted sharply with Buckner, who held the rank of major general in the Earth National Guard and regarded himself as a tactical genius. It was noted, however, that his constant meddling with Star Fleet operations and deployments followed a consistent theme of assigning ships to protect the home planets of his most powerful political allies)."
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That sounds to me like Baranov is the Churchill figure, or at least not "even more incompetent than Buckner." But I could be wrong.
Was it the Buckner/Baranov party that was swept from power, or was it just the Buckner party?
I like the concept. There are plenty of examples in history of a weapon "designed by committee" or for political weapons that um were let's say less successful than their predecessors. Look at the history of the MX missile lol. A mere FIFTY were deployed after such wonderful ideas as a "dense pack" installation (100 missiles) or a mobile missile system with trains (200+ missiles). Sad thing is that at the end of the year (2004) it will be taken out of service, leaving its predecessor Minuteman III in service for years to come.
B-52 and B-1A/B B-2 replacements
Bucker and Baranov were the same party. One could say that the above is the party spin; since Baranov was defeated in an election a few months later he hardly rates as Churchill. Indeed, the other party's version might well be that Baranov just stayed out of the way since he knew his party had been humiliated.
In fact this idea might make a idea for a new module : "Ships that SHOULD NEVER have been" . We already see examples of that in CL "U.S.S Lollipop" LOL
I just saw the SSD. That thing is a cruiser with a third engine stuck up its tailpipe.
Did I read the original text right? Buckner wanted to make the original CA/CC obselete, and figured he could convert a DN into THAT for the cost of a frigate?
Am I missing something here?
Very true, Ben. I don't object to the thing; it's no more bizarre than some other stuff out there, particularly SSJ and R9. Fed maulers? Three engine cruisers and four engine DN's? This is pretty tame by comparison.
Jeff Tonglet:
no, you pretty much have the concept. Buckner figured the value of the DN (that never ever gets used) is ZERO.
So instead of building a new BCH or CX at 180 to 200+ BPV's each, he could have 18 of the dreadnoughts cut down for 75 BPV's each. if you multiply it all out, a fleet of 18 DNR's (ignoring for the moment that there were no where near enough DN hulls available to satisfy the demand) totals 1,350 BPV's while brand new construction of a BCH or CX for 18 new hulls at (lets say) 200 BPV's each totals 3,600 BPV'S.
Its screwy accounting and fails to appropriately reflect the true value of the DNR, but there are many examples of politicians slanting figures to support his or her position.
Remember that when Buckner was alive there were no X-ships or BCHs.
[Good points, but this conversation needs to be back on track about the DNR, not about politics.]
SVC-
IMO the comparison still works for new construction CA and CC hulls (and when available, the CB class). Its just that the total savings of the amount of BPV's not spent on new hulls by converting DN class variants to the DNR standard is somewhat less than the comparison to the BCH and CX classes.
Steve you edit faster than I type almost 
. Was just trying to make sure my context was correctly taken as to weapons that politicians made less viable. It's happened throughout history and it will happen again
Seriously, I would take that consideration (trading the CA/CC hulls for DNR) out of the picture as I would say think that muddies the concept.
I've always kind of had a problem with big expensive DNs taking up storage at SBs especially with the new in-service date of before the GW started.
One point I would ask is how did you come up with a BPV of 190 for the 4 photon/8 PH-1 variant?
I guessed. A vanilla DN is 180. While the DNR as Jeff proposed it looses some durability and systems, it makes up for this in a better move cost and improved turn mode; also, having eight P1's (with four 360s) is pretty darn good phaser cover. It can arm standard photons and pay HK costs and still move at max speed. Or, hold overloads and do the same thing. That's pretty impressive, so I gave it a 190. Jeff didn't specify BPV; if anyone has a better figure, feel free to suggest it. It'll be up to Jeff to decide which version he likes, and what BPV he gives it, and whether or not he wants to submit it (though SVC has seen it and, as a post on this board, he already owns the thing.)
The 8 phaser version is a good ship. 4 360s and 4 FH? Not too many Y173 ships have that coverage.
The 4 phaser (the original proposal) belongs on the scrap heap.
Jeff Tonglet:
No prototype was built, and none were converted so IMO its unlikely that we would see the 4 phaser model "on the scrap heap"
As to the question of BPV, 190 sounded (to me, anyway) as being in the right ball park. Compared to the vanilla DN it has similar phaser arc coverage with fewer total phaser 1 mounts.
If this critter ever got playtested, the resulting BPV may well be different, but I'd suggest that Mikes guesstimate is a good place to start.
I'd like to go back to an issue raised by Robert Cole. In the original back story, Buckner conceived the general premise back in year 173, and used the vanilla DN as the basis of the DNR as that was what he thought DN's were, (He could just as easily used the Early DN...but IMHO such a refit is eaven worse than the one Jeff Tonglet is critical about.)
The back story also stipulated Year 188 as when public disclosure and debate on the DNR actually occured, so again, Robert Coles point about no DN or DN+ hulls would still be available.
To me, it makes little sense to reduce the refitted veteran DN variants down to pre general war standards, so, really, if such a thing as the DNR were considered, the base hull would be what was in service and available post year 188.
Perhaps, we should use Roberts idea/suggestions for the basis of the DNR as late model DNG's instead of the DN?
Okay, for what it's worth, here are my thoughts on how a Razee Dreadnought might fit into the Super Heavy Cruiser concept. This is something of an expansion of an idea I posted several weeks ago in that topic.
1. The problem with the Super Heavy Cruiser concept is that no one can agree on what the concept is. Some people have suggested what amounts to a "BCH+" while others have suggested an overgunned heavy cruiser subject to shock, similar to the Romulan Killerhawk. To the extent any concensus exists, it is that whatever a Super Heavy Cruiser is, the Killerhawk is an example of one. I believe this lack of a coherent concept for what the Super Heavy really is and where it fits into SFU history, is SVC's principal objection to it. (SVC, I'm drawing this inference from some comments you posted in the Super Heavy Cruiser topic. If I have misconstrued your intent and put words into your mouth, I apologize. It was not intentional.)
2. SFU history and published background material supports the notion of the primacy of the BCH within the cruiser class, until the deployment of X-cruisers. It therefor seems to me questionable to have Super Heavys that are "better" than BCHs. A Super Heavy might be more powerful than a BCH, but also suffer from limitations (shock, limited deployment range, disproportionately high cost) that made it less satisfactory overall. The Killerhawk could be an example of this.
3. With the above in mind, I submit the following suggestion for consideration. During the General War, all the involved races attempted to develop ships that were more powerful than the existing cruisers but could be built in greater numbers than dreadnoughts. A number of concepts were explored, some of which worked and some did not. "Super Heavy Cruisrs" became the catch-all term for these more-than-a-cruiser-but-less-than-a-dreadnought ships. "Super Heavy Cruiser" did not actually refer to a specific class of ship the way "War Cruiser" or "BCH" did. And though these ships were referred to as Super Heavy Cruisers, some of the concepts were actually based on cheaper, "cut down" dreadnoughts. (Aha! We're back to the Razee.)
4. The BCH was essentially a Super Heavy Cruiser that worked. Other concepts failed for various reasons.
4.1 The "western" races (Lyran, Kzinti, Klingon) looked at the overpowered/overgunned ships the Wynn (and sometimes LDR) built and experimented with similar concepts. But the Wynn and LDR could get away with this because they were defending extremely compact territories. The Tholians could probably have produced similar ships, though they never chose to go down that path. For major races, however, these tactically very powerful ships turned out to be too limited strategically. They were far too closely tied to their bases to be useful to any race that had to conduct operations over long distances. Status: Most were Conjectural or Unbuilt Variants, though a few Unique ships were produced. The only one known to have ever seen combat was a Kzinti Super Heavy Battle Cruiser that was instrumental in repulsing an Andromedan attack on the Marquis Starbase. In a campaign these ships would use "monitor" strategic movement rules.
4.2 The Tholians developed a unique exotic alloy that (theoretically) allowed existing designs to be built with very thin hulls and support bracing. This would make more mass and volume available for power systems/weapons while retaining the structural strength necessary to support those weapons. These ships would have had the advantages of Wynn-type overpowered ships but without the strategic disadvantages. In practice the material was so expensive to produce and so difficult for the Tholian automated hull production equipment to work with, that each cruiser would have actually taken longer to produce, and been more expensive than, a D-class dreadnought. This obviated the whole point of the design. (In SFB terms, the ship would have a split EPV/BPV with EPV much higher. In a campaign, the ship would replace either a dreadnought plus PC, or two cruisers in the production schedule. This is due to the extreme difficulty working with the alloy.) There are some indications of talks with the Federation concerning a cooperative project combining Tholian materiel science with Federation resources and production methods. The talks collapsed almost before they started due to Tholian paranoia and xenophobia. Status: Unbuilt Variant. Some analysts believe the mysterious Tholian alloy was related to web technology and that the Tholians had discovered a way to use "nano-webs" to bind together the molecules within the alloy. This would account for both the extraordinary strength of the material and the Tholian paranoia about letting anyone else in on the method of its production, even if that prevented the Tholians from using it in their own ships.
4.3 The Gorns considered a version of their BCH that would convert the center S-torp to an R-torp to match the Killerhawk. Unlike the Romulans, the Gorns were ultimately unwilling to pay the shock penalties. Status: Unbuilt Variant. The Romulans went in the opposite direction and designed a Killerhawk with the R-torp reduced to an S-torp. The smaller physical size of the S-torp allowed increased bracing so that the ship was not subject to shock. At least one "Hellhawk" was built but by that time X-tech had clearly established itself as the wave of the future. The excellent Hellhawk matched the Gorn BCH in plasma and was cheaper than the Killerhawk, while not suffering from shock. The Gorn BCH had a better phaser suite but the Hellhawk had a superior power curve and could, of course, cloak. Status: Unique Ship - though they might well have entered serial production, replacing the Novahawk, had X-tech proven to be unworkable.
4.4 Several races experimented with the idea of a cut-down "Razee" dreadnought that would have approximately cruiser firepower but a better power curve and much superior survivability. Only the Federation is believed to have ever actually built one. These Razee dreadnoughts were inferior to true dreadnoughts but they were envisioned for a different role. Dreadnoughts were typically deployed one per fleet as flagships. The idea was that a Razee would be cheap enough to deploy in large numbers and several would be deployed per fleet, with one "true" dreadnought as the flagship. The concept failed because it was based on a faulty notion of the limiting factors in dreadnought production, which were time and slipway availability. Though cheaper than a true dreadnought, Razees still required dreadnought slipways and still took almost as long to build. Razees tended to be a more popular concept with the politicians than they were with the engineers and naval architects who understood the time constraints. Status: Unique Ship for the Federation, Unbuilt Variant for everybody else.
The era of the Super Heavy Cruisers was approximately from Y170 to Y185 (this will require the "YIS" from Jeff's original concept to be changed) with various concepts being tried out (and usually failing) during that time period. The BCHs were the Super Heavy Cruisers that worked.
This is my attempt to tie the Razee dreadnought into a more comprehensive "Super Heavy Cruiser" concept. I wanted to avoid "cookie-cutterism" with everyone's Super Heavy looking pretty much like everyone else's, except for weapons. Some of my ideas may not work and other ideas that fit into the overall concept could be introduced. (Note that I haven't yet suggested anything for the Hydrans or ISC). The Tholian "exotic alloy" is derived from an idea I have been considering for Tholian X2 ships and which I may explore in more detail there, if I can get it to work. Maybe by Y205 the Tholians had solved the problems associated with this "nano-web alloy" at least to some extent. I now stand ready to receive your accolades and/or ridicule.
Wow, Alan...
Lots of concepts there. Gonna take me some time to comprehend all of it!
one thing though, Most races havent got the kind of arrangement that the Fed DN SSD has. The Klingon Boom for a C8 or C9 DN doesnt really have a wing position that could be easily cut off (as the Razee premise has)...although if you left the Boom intact and applied a 25% razee of the secondary hulll (or better, actually to get to a 25% overall reduction in system boxes) I'll have to look at a C9 SSD to see if its viable. with the Phaser 2's and Phaser 3's taking most of the deletions, it might not fare to badly on a Razee refit.
Wonder how it would compare to the C7?
I would think a DNG would be the ship to be turned into a DNR. It makes 0 sense to use the DN unrefitted (what's the in-service date now? LOL)
Well, if the concept was considered as early as Y173, it makes sense. It also helps explain why it was never built; the DN+ is a much better choice, and led to the very nice DNG and DNH.
Mike, we need to remember SVC's point that the BCH and CX didnt exist when Buckner died. So buckner couldnt have anticipated the DNG refit or the DNH.
If the Razee refit was truly "on the table" for consideration after year 188, it is unlikely they would have adopted Buckners exact idea...the hull would still be a DN variant, but it would have the added systems for the types in service after year 188.
As to Alans suggestion that the "Razee Refit" would actually be the Federation entry in the "Super Heavy Cruiser" it actually makes some sense...I mean, look at the History of American Heavy cruiser development in the 1930's thru post WW2. You start with the Pensacola class cruisers at less than 10,000 tones and 10 x 8 inch guns in 4 turrets to the Des Moines Class at what, 17,000 tons and 9 x 8 inch guns in 3 turrets.
The Penscolas were top heavy, had little reserve for fuel and poor arrangements for sea plane and fire control systems, the Demoins were excellant sea boats, superior armor arrangements improved gunnery and fire control systems, and advanced sea planes. but the main armament was still about the same...
Giving the Federation a SC 2 super heavy cruiser would be a radical departure from all other races approach...and puts the Romulan entry into a different perspective.
Jeff,
The Des Moines class 8 inch guns were fully automatic similar (in concept) to the Worchester 6" Cls. Their full load was over 20,000 tons. I think the Des Moines class would be more like a CX.
Quote:Mike, we need to remember SVC's point that the BCH and CX didnt exist when Buckner died. So buckner couldnt have anticipated the DNG refit or the DNH.
Which is exactly the point...he didn't anticipate them, and proposed this before hand. It obviously didn't work, and the real development team came up with the DNG.