1) The apprenticeship has mostly gone away. Employers want fully productive employees from day 1.

2) Employee and Employer loyalty has disappeared. Employers cut employees at will. Employees know this and have shown they will go on to a new job if they can get more money. Loyalty is a two way street.

3) With the demise of the Pension you have zero incentive to stay with the same employer.

4) I know all kinds of guys that make a LOT of money with their hands. Guy the master tool and die man for example. 41 years in the trade and he probably pulls in $200k a year.

5) Many of the current unions are actually hard to get into. Try joining the longshoremans union if you doubt that...
etc.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 03:17 pm: Edit

1) The apprenticeship has mostly gone away. Employers want fully productive employees from day 1.

You only get that by headhunting......
Only if you put them in the exact same job....

What you are taught in school, is rarely how things operate in the workplace....

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Droid. I disagree. Faculty is not the problem. It's the sheer numbers of "non teaching" positions. So many Deans. So many other strap hangers.

Faculty is more and more "Lecturers" who get paid a pittance and can't get tenure...

By Steve Stewart (Stevestewart) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 08:20 am: Edit

Apprenticeships are popular in the UK; the Govt subsidises them, they can get day release to college, and they learn their trade whilst being productive (to some degree). They don't get paid much, but they don't get the level of debt that goes with a University education.

They both have their good points and bad points. The key is getting a good balance of skills and capabilities.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 09:26 am: Edit

Here in the US we have interns but there might not be any pay for the work. When that's the case the student either

a) is already supported elsewhere,
b) goes even deeper into debt so they can live, or
c) passes over the internship because they need a real job to pay the bills.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 11:49 am: Edit

Ginger, points A and C lead me to think that the doors opened up by doing internships are meant as a way to promote the offspring of wealthy "Elites" as a way of excluding new blood from the elite circles.

Given my prejudisms that such internships are in the mixed legal/political/media elite world (that, at the risk of being `Gatored, has too much corrupt power, IMO), makes me wonder if there's any possibility for honest people to fix the inherent problems there.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 02:42 pm: Edit

I don't know about "meant to" but it's definitely a side effect. You have to be at least in a position to live somewhere close to school, usually with parents.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 06:19 am: Edit

Perhaps 'COVID' will reset some of the Economic mistmarch in positions

1) High School Educated and Manual labour (Bus and Truck drivers for example) - not too effected and some positions (Truck drivers for example are in demand (so wages may go up while numbers expand).

2) College* Educated/Apprenticeship Based -

White Collar workers (former educated) - which has been effected by COVID (Shop workers and Management) and Vocational work (later group) - probably haven't been effected (Plumbers, Builders, Electricians etc)

3) Professionals (Degree Based) - wide spread of effect, but being partially more IT based, probably effected like group 1 (a Sheet metal worker can't work from home - a IT Specialist can!)

So will the young want to avoid Office Based professions and want more manual/blue collar work - due to the fact everyone could work from home (so supply of workers will go up and wages may go down) or where workers may be more in demand?


* - Difference in terminology between the UK and US I think? UK Colleges traditionally were vocationally based (a lot did try to convert to being Universities) but UK Colleges in effect allow you to study for a Diploma or equivalent - Universities for Degrees.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 09:11 am: Edit

(a Sheet metal worker can't work from home - a IT Specialist can!)

Exactly why we don't need to provide special visas for IT Workers, they can stay (say India) and do their job.....

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 09:27 am: Edit

Well over half of my team is in the Philippines. I sorely wish they could be here. Working across vastly different timezones is painful at best and absolutely detrimental at times.

We have some people from India who have work visas and it's a great thing.

I'm not saying there aren't workarounds. We have them, including overlapping shifts so out Manila team is awake at 2am for meetings. We also sometimes have 9pm meetings. It's far from ideal.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 10:12 am: Edit

I'm not saying there aren't workarounds.

Probably a military thing, but spent many months working 3rd/midnight shift....
Exercises and real combat, dealing with units, intel groups half-way around the world....
When you have 6-10 clocks set at different time zones, got used to not wearing a watch, still don't...

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 10:55 am: Edit

That's what we end up doing, especially when we're working with multiple teams across multiple regions such as Manila, Germany, China, and the US. Still, we can't force third parties to do it and it means that not all conversations are live. We always have tight deadlines and a long hunt through code for what would be the answer to an otherwise simple question is not good for those.

We have a few resources who completely overlap but mostly for administrative and high level things. We tried having everyone overlap but it's not the military. Nobody has to be here and people quit when you tell them they're not allowed to have a life outside of work.

Then again, we've strayed far off topic.

I'm also a fan of student visas. We've had several great employees who came here for one, stayed for the quality of life, and have been incredible assets to the team. I'm not sure how I feel about them getting student loans.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 11:23 am: Edit

Student visas are great. Except for the Chinese spies...

By Kurt Byanski (Kurtski) on Wednesday, September 01, 2021 - 04:02 pm: Edit

My random thoughts as someone who took out minor student loans to get through the first year college, and who shoved two kids through Purdue (GO MITCH!!!)...so far.

A lot of people make asinine decisions, particularly at 18+, then expect others to fix the resulting problems for them. Maybe we shouldn't allow a student to incur this debt until they have demonstrated an understanding of the what the debt is and what they will be expected to do to pay it off.

Maybe there shouldn't be any (or maybe very minimal) student loans. As noted above, they are essentially a subsidy and subsidies always raise prices. If we did away with student loans, the easy money would dry up and colleges/university costs would have no choice but hold or drop tuition to meet a reduced and no longer subsidized demand.

After you incur the debt...pay it back as fast as possible...even if you have to defer other things in life. You took on the debt, suck it up and pay it back. Maybe this means you can't do the other things you want to right away...so be it. If you graduate with debt, then run out and get married, have 2.3 kids, buy cars and new house, and find you can't pay all the bills, it's your own fault. If you got a degree in something "stupid" and financially useless, it's your fault...Quit doing stupid.

Side note: When I was a student at Purdue in the mid 80s, tuition was less than $1000 per semester and room & board was not much more than that. My oldest daughters were paying close to $10K per semester each, 6 years ago. I saw no significant difference in the quality of the education, just a lot more fancy buildings/residences and recreational facilities.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, September 01, 2021 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Concur with Kurt. I'm just a few years behind him and also went to college in the mid-80s/early 90's. No real difference between me and oldest daughter, just 10 times more expensive.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, September 01, 2021 - 06:19 pm: Edit

quote: A lot of people make asinine decisions, particularly at 18+

Yep. That's why my oldest brother and second oldest sister both got married at 18. There are more ways to incur dept beside going to college.


Garth L. Getgen

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, September 02, 2021 - 10:36 am: Edit

I was a college student (intermittently) from 1980 to 2004.

1) The number of stupid fees has rocketed up. Why should I pay a fee to support varsity athletics when I am uninterested in them. Let the gate + donations take care of it. If they can't stand up without the students taking it in the shorts, get rid of them. Beside, generally students can't even attend games of top teams. I know I wasn't allowed to use "THEIR" gym.

2) Saw MULTIPLE athletic facilities built for Basketball teams just because. What they had was fine, but they demanded more. "Student athletes" get premium treatment. As far as I am concerned, they should NOT get special dorms, dining halls, etc.

3) Too many administrators and such. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinesimon/2017/09/05/bureaucrats-and-buildings-the-case-for-why-college-is-so-expensive/?sh=1d58f95b456a

4) Stop making students take classes that do nothing more than support useless staff. Who actually NEEDS to take German/ Spanish/ French/ Greek/ Latin in College? But many degrees require you to take some languages. Why should college make us take PE? I know I took "Sailing" at Charleston, but WT (heck)?

5) Stop farming out students to TAs and Adjuncts. You want to be a college professor you teach classes full time. That means 4 classes a week at least...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, September 02, 2021 - 10:42 am: Edit

All good points, Mike!

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Thursday, September 02, 2021 - 04:24 pm: Edit

$30m ice rink at RIT. Case and point.
Facility bloat is a thing.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, September 03, 2021 - 11:17 am: Edit

With due respect to Mike Grafton, I do want to take partial issue with his point 4).

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Quote:

4) Stop making students take classes that do nothing more than support useless staff. Who actually NEEDS to take German/ Spanish/ French/ Greek/ Latin in College? But many degrees require you to take some languages. Why should college make us take PE? I know I took "Sailing" at Charleston, but WT (heck)?

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By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, September 04, 2021 - 12:13 pm: Edit

I don't disagree about having a bit of broadening. But so much of a modern BS is stuff outside your major.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Saturday, September 04, 2021 - 12:31 pm: Edit

It's not "modern BS stuff"; it's been part of a university education quite literally as long as there have been universities. The point of a university education wasn't to slot the student into a specific job; it was to provide the student with a well-rounded education across a broad span of topics. Indeed, it's where the term "university" comes from: "whole, entire".

Frankly, specific job training should come from a trade school and/or apprenticeship program.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, September 04, 2021 - 01:25 pm: Edit

In addition, the purpose of a University is also to train people in *HOW TO LEARN*, thus making them more attractive to future employers because of the mental flexibility that they have been trained to exhibit.

If you want specific skills, trade schools are the better choice.

By Jean Sexton Beddow (Jsexton) on Saturday, September 04, 2021 - 01:32 pm: Edit

I must agree with Alan and Jessica. The first two years of college are designed to give a person some knowledge about many different things. Some of it was to help the person decide either on a career or if the career being considered would suit. Some of it was to graduate a student who would have a base to understand on a basic level the interests and careers of other people. Some of it was to produce a society of people who had a common knowledge base.

Did I have a strong need for my French courses? Well, the knowledge did help me with the casual French phrase in conversation or literature. It helped me catalog books written in French. And I could usually puzzle out written Spanish.

Did I really need two semesters of calculus? Not really, but the knowledge helped me help people looking for information to supplement math classes. And the math and logic are helping me learn more about accounting.

Did I love my PE classes? Not really. But it did help me realize there is more to a sport than it appears. And I am not likely to drown in a pool as long as I am conscious.

No knowledge is truly wasted.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Saturday, September 04, 2021 - 03:25 pm: Edit

I went to a southern Wesleyan college. They let us take self defense (easy and useful A) as our PE requirement. No languages needed but we had to take two semesters of religion courses. I also had to take a bunch of non-comluter science courses. I agree that they're good for creating well rounded graduates. I'm glad I took film appreciation and psychology I and II even if I never use them at my desk.