Jeff, generally speaking the people that order the strikes, the combatants on the ground, the civilians that in the middle of it, they all have their own unique and limited viewpoint of events. Then it is distilled into "news" for our consumption. Of course it doesn't make sense. It is probably a mistake to try, but it is in our nature to make the attempt. We have tools for that. Imagination, past experiences, knowledge of the world, empathy. They are probably more of a burden than a help to try to understand what is happening.
I can only say; if you can't make it make sense then stop trying. Maybe you will get the answer later on when they write the history books.

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 05:30 am: Edit

Ukraine claims that its new drones have a range of 1,800 kilometers, which is enough to hit a lot of the important parts of russia and also parts of Iran. Iran is supplying weapons to russia which are being used by russia to terrorise Ukrainian civilians. There's no chance in heck that Ukraine will directly attack Iran, but they have the capability now, at least in theory.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 06:14 am: Edit

The Ukrainians just might start attacking the transportation system and infrastructure (bridges, tunnels, communications or hubs.)

The more stress they can produce on the Russians, the more risk Putin will have to his position as leader of the Russian nation.

The talking heads started saying early in the war that Ukraine and President Zelinski (spelling?) couldn’t survive a long or prolonged war. The truth is, given how badly the war has gone for Russia, it is now a major problem for Putin.

Several people posting here have commented on Russian History and the proclivity of rebel, assassination or Coups.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 08:44 am: Edit

"the Israelis are NOT saints..."

true enough. The problem is that saints aren't wearing uniforms and fighting terrorists. Seriously, the Israelis are not perfect and expecting them to be is totally unrealistic.

My counter arguement: "If Hamas wasn't using it's own people as human shields, why don't them come out of hiding and fight the IDF "mano a mano?" The reason is simple; they know they'd all be killed in a few days. So they hide amid the Palestinian people who suffer.

I'm on record here that this will not end until Hamas is defeated and a FORMAL SURRENDER document is signed. Leaders go on trial. And Gaza is told in no uncertain terms that ANY further terrorist mischief from their territory may result in Israel returning and levelling the place.

Alternately there is the Kallingrad, Sakhalin, & other examples solution where the aggressor loser cedes lands to the victors.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 10:01 am: Edit

Part of the issue is that as human rights are understood today, it is not acceptable to chase a people off of land they occupy. Therefore Israel is not allowed to kick the Palestinians out of a region such as Gaza. This is also why many countries consider West Bank settlements to be illegal.

So while it would make sense for the Palestinians to lose land for perpetrating Oct. 7, the international community won't allow it.

It all comes down to what I said above. The international community wants to guarantee human rights for everyone. But that isn't possible.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 11:58 am: Edit

The settlements are not something I have ever supported, and I think they do not help things one bit.

I do understand why Israeli governments do it. One reason is to buy votes from extreme parties, and trap future governments into continuing the practice. It also puts a clock on the Palestinian leaders. Make peace now, or get less land for every year you wait. I don’t think that is a viable path, but I think they do.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Supporting the Palestinian people, something all of us do, requires definition. There is a spectrum of choices, but the two basic ones are:

Supporting the Palestinian people in their goal to regain total control over Palestine, destroying Israel. (This one is no different from supporting Hamas. Note that a return to the 1967 borders results in the destruction of Israel.)

Supporting the Palestinian people in building a homeland on some territory that does not involve destroying Israel, a homeland that is: not heavily armed, not radicalized, not devoted to the destruction of Israel, not a haven for terrorists trying to destroy Israel; but is instead a prosperous and economically successful member of the community of nations with human rights including women and wealth and happiness for their people on that territory with friendly relations to their neighbors.

By Patrick Sledge (Decius) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 02:06 pm: Edit

So one thing everyone should be mindful of is reducing the warring parties to "The Israelis" or "The Palestinians" makes for a dangerous over-simplification of the forces at play.

The Knesset (Israeli parliament) has 120 seats which are represented by something like 18 different political parties. The current ruling coalition is comprised of 7 different parties, each with their own agenda. Losing one of those parties could cause their current governing coalition to fail, which gives out-sized influence to smaller (generally more extreme) parties.

Similarly, when talking about "The Palestinians" you have the question of whether you're talking about Hamas, Fatah, PFLP, or one of a dozen splinter factions.

This can create what might seem from the outside to be some weird incentives. Israel taking land in the West Bank might be seen as punishing "The Palestinians" for their activities, but if the land they're taking was Fatah-controlled then it actually benefits Hamas (by weakening a domestic political opponent and feeding their politics of grievance.) Similarly, a Hamas attack on an Israel benefits the more extreme Israeli parties (who can more credibly say "We told you they're bloodthirsty monsters who want to destroy us all").

If the situation does change to where more peaceful factions on both sides dominate, the extremists also have more tools available to disrupt that dynamic. A return to chaos is just one bomb or bullet away. (See Yitzhak Rabin for details)

The net effect is that the extremists on both sides get to drive the bus, Innocent Israelis and Palestinians both continue to suffer, and that state is likely to continue until the fundamental dynamics of the conflict change. Both sides of the conflict spent 70 years digging themselves into this hole, and there is almost certainly no way to quickly extract themselves from it.

The first step probably involves a critical mass of both Israelis and Palestinians coming to terms with the fact that the other also lives in that place, isn't going anywhere, and some genuine willingness to compromise on what they currently consider fundamental principles in order to live together peacefully.

That's not something the world can impose from the outside, and something that would be foolish for either side to adopt unilaterally. It's likely to require years of painfully slow incremental steps. But until that happens, the world is basically stuck trying to referee the atrocities.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 02:42 pm: Edit

I guess for me, part of "refereeing the atrocities" is that until there is an end to terrorist attacks, I am not inclined to put any sort of pressure on the Israelis.

Terrorist attacks will not come to an end until Palestinian leadership feels that the cost to them is not worth it. Pressure on the Israelis reduces said cost.

For similar reasons, I think that international aid to rebuild Gaza if and when the current round ends would be counterproductive. Palestinians need to be allowed to feel the natural consequences of their actions. They have felt these to a degree. But not to a degree that is sufficient to get them to stop.

I know the international community feels differently. But this difference is part of the reason Palestinian attack continue.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 04:05 pm: Edit

Telling a future peaceful Palestinian state that (because they behaved badly before) they are not allowed to have a military (even for self defense) and must agree to no-notice Israeli inspections of anything (are teachers teaching hate?) is pretty insulting, treating them like spoiled children who cannot behave. But then, every previous attempt to trust them has gone horribly impossibly wrong.

The only solution I can think of is to discover some unknown island and move one of the two populations there.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Paying the families of deceased Palestinian suicide Bombers Must cease.

Creating a profit motive for the pool of prospective suicide bombers is not just, fair or noble. It is an evil cynical depraved tactic to incentivize wide spread murder of civilians.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 07:14 pm: Edit

They also pay the family of any Palestinian who is in jail for killing an Israeli. Pay to Slay. Anyone know of any other donor-supported organization that pays people to commit murder?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 08:22 pm: Edit

The mafia?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 09:23 pm: Edit

I don't think the mafia gets voluntary donations from EU governments.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, September 11, 2024 - 09:28 pm: Edit

Protection money count?

Money charged NOT to hurt donor or donors family?

One could argue that it is up to the donor to decide to pay or not. Free choice , of a kind.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Thursday, September 12, 2024 - 12:45 am: Edit

That is correct; the mafias are criminal organizations and it would be illegal to support them.* Of course, members of these organizations are citizens and can apply and receive pensions for formal work, if they had any, social welfare grants etc. etc. As long as the claims are not fraudulent this is ok.

I figure SVC is talking about something similar in Palestine.

*Disclaimer: What do I know?. Don't take my word for it. The EU is a big place. LOL

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, September 12, 2024 - 03:02 pm: Edit

>> Pay to Slay

One of the more puzzling, out of the many puzzling aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, is that in my experience many people simply don't believe Pay to Slay actually exists. They believe it is a gross exaggeration or some Israeli right-wing propaganda. It's so weird.

--Mike

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 13, 2024 - 09:05 am: Edit

Israel reports that the Hamas Rafah Brigade has been effectively destroyed with 2300 of its troops killed and hundreds captured. That was the last operational brigade, leaving only scattered survivors operating as guerillas.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, September 13, 2024 - 11:33 am: Edit

Don't worry, their leadership are out of Gaza living the good life.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Friday, September 13, 2024 - 01:38 pm: Edit

It only took a year...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, September 13, 2024 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Job that had to be done. It will be interesting to see about cleaning out the civilian civil service of hamas/Hezbolah sympathizers.

I can not imagine that any Fatah survivors escaped or even kept their jobs all these years.

Even more interesting will be the steps taken to reeducate all the teachers in Gaza.

The comparison will be how the Communists, Socialists and Marxists dealt with similar situations.

Not pretty. But ruthlessly effective.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 13, 2024 - 04:41 pm: Edit

I don’t think teachers with radical Jew hatred can be re-educated. Even if you import teachers, parents radicalized in previous years will radicalize the kids.

Childhood’s End, anyone?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, September 13, 2024 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Steve,
The implications are truly staggering.

It could require a massive restructuring of Palestinian society, needing years if not decades to complete.

Other than the Jesuits, what religious or secular group sends its members off to hostile or unfriendly places to teach?

You can’t even trust established universities in the west given the lengths they go to teach marxist doctrine to students (often in opposition to published curriculum.)

Can israel afford to post guards in every class room to protect jewish teachers?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 13, 2024 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Can it afford not to? Maybe two per school and a couple of undercovers who walk around a lot.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, September 13, 2024 - 09:58 pm: Edit

I imagine something of the sort would be used at first. Adjusted as needed as experience is gained. Perhaps a larger number for particular areas?

This could end up being similar to the troubles england had in Northern Ireland.

Sad when a democracy has to resort to police state practices such as the Union used during the U.S. Civil War (1860-5) or during WW1 under Wilson.