Archive through March 03, 2025
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Non-Game Discussions: Real-World Military:
Archive through March 03, 2025
Well, unfortunately for both Jessica and ADM, Norway has a recent history of promising to meet the minimum requirements of NATO membership defense spending, and failing to actually spend the required amount.
If Norway did actually feel that the United States is not reliable, they presumably would materially increase their defenses.
They have not.
The implication is that the powers that be, in Norway, continues to believe in U.S. commitment to NATO.
Daily mail published a statement:
NATO chief Mark Rutte has said he told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that he needs to find a way to restore his relationship with President Donald Trump after Friday's White House clash.
'It is important that President Zelensky finds a way to restore his relationship with the American President and with the senior American leadership team,' Rutte told the BBC on Saturday, commenting on a call he had with Zelensky on Friday.
He described the meeting at the White House as 'unfortunate'.
If ADM and Jessica were correct, the chief of NATO Mark Rutte would have been expected to say something quite different.
The situation is not "unfortunate for Jessica and ADM"; it's unfortunate for the eight-decade old NATO alliance. You know, the one that has only activated its mutual defense charter once: in defense of the U.S. after the 9/11 attacks. The one that Trump spent his first term in office deriding. The one that Biden spent his time in office reinforcing and expanding. The one Trump is taking a torch to yet again. That NATO alliance.
Maybe you're happy about this turn of events, this undermining of the NATO alliance. But as someone who actually served in uniform for this nation, I'm not.
Buying Russian oil and Gas turned out to be a mistake. Likewise does it appear buying American Arms was, and is, a similar mistake.
It was supposed to be a way to secure stronger ties to Washington, but who wants that now? Those ties can become strings that pull your limbs by someone sympathetic to your supposed common adversary.
Same with Starlink. After the US threat to cut access for Ukraine, as reported by Reuters, that too has become a weakness. UA will certainly replace it with the EU alternative as soon as possible.
This on top of a diminished Twitter and the woes of the SwastiCar. I don't expect Musk to remain the worlds richest man for very long.
I don't expect Musk to remain the worlds richest man for very long.
Seeing what Musk has said about corporations that have been pulling ads for the last year, possibly for supporting Trump, don't really see that as something Musk even thinks about....
I think anyone would go broke betting against Elon Musk. Making him Mad is a really bad move. When he fired 3/4 of the software engineers at X he showed every CEO in America that they could also fire a lot of their tech people and still get the same profit. Do you really want Elon to do that to some other industry? (It also happened, without Elon doing anything, to the graphic design industry. I get emails every week from graphic designers with 20 years experience desperate to find a job to pay their mortgage.)
Hey Carl:
How is it blackmail to hold allies accountable to commitments they AGREED to? There are allies in Europe that slacked on their commitment to NATO and spent that money on socialists programs instead. We finally have a WH willing to call out our Allie’s who FAIL to keep their commitments.
BTW, I seem to recall that one of our newest and wealthiest members of NATO only coughed up only $6.5B to Ukraine while the US ponied up $350B. When Europe starts matching our efforts in Ukraine, then maybe they can complain about our commitment.
Both Sweden and Finland give more to Ukraine (as a percentage of GDP) than the US does. The US actually ranks 12th in military, financial and humanitarian aid to Ukraine as a percentage of GDP.
Probably fair to say - 'who donates the most $$$' is not a good analysis on who is or is not supportig the Ukranians the most.
No idea if it's accurate or not - one report I read said the top three nations for the last 3 years to Ukraine, as a % of their GDP was Estonia and Denamrk (both over 2%) and Lithunian at 1.8%. The bottom three are Croatia and US (both 0.53% and the UK (0.51%)!
It's all big numbers, but you don't upset any nation giving you huge amounts of aid in a time of need - be it $$$ or %%%.
I do agree though that Fridays White House spat is damaging for both Ukrainian and NATO.
P.S. Looks like my post took longer to type than Douglas's!
Which nation produces more per capita....now grade that.
A nation has got to PRODUCE something more than socialist programs...
Chuck- I absolutely don't disagree - the more a country makes, the more it can gift.
Norway for example has a higher GDP per Capita and did give more to the Ukraine than the US - but thats pretty much it.
(Germany is probably the next best on GDP per captia - amougest the larger populated nations (as most of the high capita nations have low populations)- and they gave less than the UK!).
So the US does score well on both 
Note - the table I saw wasn't very good - it was actually only the top 12 (can't edit my post as more than 30 mins ago) - so those three nations are NOT at the bottom - Croatia, US and UK are mid table in effect.
Canada and Germany are both below those three in the full list.
Lies Lies and D@rn Statistics!
Sorry for the lack of clarity on my 4.08 am post.
Chuck, a week ago I covered this once (20-Feb).
The US has NOT given $350 billion to Ukraine. The only source for that number comes from the President.
The US has appropriated about $180 billion, (sources Congressional Research Service, special inspector general for Operation Atlantic Resolve created to track Ukraine spending). Also, the US hasn't actually given the full amount appropriated at this point. The US has probably currently given about $140 billion with another $40 available or committed.
In a way, the Trump/Zelenskyy dust up might turn out to be a good thing.
Eight decades is a long time, and institutions like NATO, pick up things they were never intended to.
NATO, in spite of being initially a defense treaty to protect its member states from a Russian War of continental conquest has over time expanded, added bureaucracy, tons of rules and requirements (in some cases ignored by various members) and it has lost its primary mission.
Defense against a large invasion by the U.S.S.R. Driven by Marxist/Leninist ideology, was the original mission. Since then, NATO member states have tried to make adjustments, and expand the mission. Terrorism, human trafficking, DEI and wokism etc.
What the Trump haters here have obviously missed, is the fall of the U.S.S.R. And the dissolution of the Soviet Empire/and or are ignoring it as inconvenient to their own personal ideology.
Much of the animosity being directed at President Trump isn’t because an immature child who leads a rather insignificant eastern European state got publicly spanked.
Deleted as inflammatory and totally not necessary - Jean WebMom
And a big part of that is the loss of revenue that stopped when Elon Musk took down USAID and all the other corrupt embezzlement scams.
When the history of all the graft and corruption gets written, it may not be very kind to those who allowed it to happen.
A long hard look at NATO could be a very good thing, given just how far it has moved away from its original mission.
Didn't see a lot of people say anything a few years ago when the Chinese delegation disrespected the U.S. delegation that was sent over there.....
Major difference in how two administrations handles Foreign Relations and how the media report it.....
Chuck, I said allies but meant Ukraine. Maybe I trusted context too much there, confusing you. (sorry about that)
The Blackmail refers to the Trump administrations grab for Ukraine minerals, threatening to cut access to Starlink which they use for battlefield comms, if they didn't caved to the demands.
"Martin Matishak
February 28th, 2025
Exclusive: Hegseth orders Cyber Command to stand down on Russia planning
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth last week ordered U.S. Cyber Command to stand down from all planning against Russia, including offensive digital actions, according to three people familiar with the matter.
Hegseth gave the instruction to Cyber Command chief Gen. Timothy Haugh, who then informed the organization's outgoing director of operations, Marine Corps Maj. Gen. Ryan Heritage, of the new guidance, according to these people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the matter’s sensitivity.
The order does not apply to the National Security Agency, which Haugh also leads, or its signals intelligence work targeting Russia, the sources said.
While the full scope of Hegseth’s directive to the command remains unclear, it is more evidence of the White House’s efforts to normalize ties with Moscow after the U.S. and international allies worked to isolate the Kremlin over its 2022 invasion of Ukraine..."
Full article at The Record website.
A lot of people forget that Ukraine, Finland, Norway,and more countries came to Afghanistan to fight at the side of the US. Heck, I dated a certain Norwegian officer there in MES.
I've been in country and participated in "fallen comrade" ceremonies. I've had my mechanics decontaminate MRAPs from foreign nations before fixing them because of the blood inside.
I've been on partner nation bases in Afghanistan and been shelled there.
The event with trump was a disgrace.
The whole narrative about wearing a suit is the same BS they spouted when Obama wore a tan suit. Google "Tan suit Reagan/ Bush/ Kennedy/ Clinton/ Nixon/ FDR/ Eisenhower/ Biden/ Ford..." Zelensky wears his "costume" as a symbol of unity with his troops. He doesn't spend his time golfing, pimping his crypto meme coin, bibles, watches, guitars...
I thought trump promised to have this all fixed on day 1? Along with egg prices.
Actually, the current situation is pushing NATO back towards its original mission; preventing invasion from the East.
Anyone who thinks Russia will stop with part of Ukraine or even all of Ukraine doesn't get it. Putin isn't trying to recreate the USSR. He trying to territorially recreate the Russian Empire and become de facto "Czar Vladimir, savior of all the Russias." After Ukraine will most likely be Moldova. It's not a NATO member and, thanks to Iron Joe's forced population relocations at the end of WW2, has a substantial ethnic Russian population. Then would come the real test for whether or not NATO actually stands for anything; when he tries to browbeat Lithuania into "peacefully" ceding a land corridor for access to Kaliningrad.
At that point, if NATO doesn't stand up, it becomes open season on dictatorships taking over small neighbors.
No.
Not anti NATO.
Guess we score that as yet another miss.
It is just an observation of entropy.
In a Capitalist System, businesses that don’t change when markets or conditions change, end up failing, possibly even suffering bankruptcies.
Governments don’t operate as businesses do. They can operate for long periods, but when failure happens, so do bad things (trademark), like civil war, economic disruptions, hyperinflation or worse, deflation.
NATO is not a government, but it is a treaty organization designed to protect its member states under the theory of collective defense.
There is a minority of people who think that NATO is the victim of a number of corrosive forces, that, if not corrected will destroy the entire alliance.
Some of those negative things include corruption, ideological differences, nepotism, cronyism, in fact a fairly large list of things.
Some of it may be imagined, or even overstated, but the symptoms are clear, The NATOof today bears little resemblance to the NATO of the past..
So, all you pro-Ukraine type -- what is the final end state? Tell us how Ukraine gets there? How much time, who's treasure, and who's lives and how many dead will it take?
Define victory. Specifically.
More information has been released.
350,000,000,000.00 $USD mostly in equipment, munitions and weapons.
Half of which (175,000,000,000.00 $USD) was “Officially unaccounted for” by the Ukrainian military or the government.
Now, Fox News reported today that roughly half of the aid has been put up for sale on the international weapons black market, currently selling for 20% of its actual value.
No wonder the Ukrainian forces are making little headway against the Russians, half of everything they were promised was diverted.
There are lots of words appropriate to describe this, percolation might be one term.
Before anyone else says so, if the only source supporting Trump's figure is FOX the critics on this BBS aren't going to accept the number as accurate.
No one else needs to say it (again) but just where the $350B figure comes from is unknown. It may be accurate if it accounts for things not on the $182B accounting figure, or it may be calculated in some other way.
Regardless of the amount, the fact that Ukraine is stealing it and selling it for cash going into the pockets of big shots is grounds for a serious reappraisal of the situation. DO NOT LOSE SIGHT AS THAT IS THE KEY POINT.
Chuck, "So, all you pro-Ukraine type -- what is the final end state?
Tell us how Ukraine gets there? How much time, who's treasure, and who's lives and how many dead will it take?
Define victory. Specifically."
Well, whose money is easy to answer: Mine. I have signed up to a small monthly subscription to support a Ukrainian unit in the field. I have just my small pension but I am open to give more.
Then there is all the money and weapons the member states of the European Union provide. They are willing to send more. I read recently that the Norwegians are willing to change the law in order to draw more money from their immense oil fund.
There is also the frozen Russian central bank assets worth 300bn$ held by the EU and the G7 countries. The northern countries are pushing for confiscation of these monies to be used by Ukraine.
There's my partial answer.
I am pro-Ukrainian in my bias, but I would like to believe I will review any info with an open mind. Jswile, I'd be happy to read any link you send me (email in profile) and I try to review news sources across the political spectrum. I don't limit myself to sources that only reinforce my opinions.
On the half of aid unaccounted for. I have seen this multiple times, but I've also seen good reasons for it. The US (and other western countries) count everything they spend in support of Ukraine, and rightly so. Ukraine counts everything they get into their control. The US has mobilized new units to Europe to support Ukraine (training, intelligence gathering, etc), the cost of those units being in Europe is counted as a donation, Ukraine never sees any money from that. If the US trains Ukrainian pilots/soldiers they count the full cost, Ukraine never receives money. If the US pays a manufacturer to expand their production line of X and move to 24 hour production Ukraine doesn't see that money. There are a number of other categories.
Is there corruption, yes, I'm certain there is some. You can easily find news articles over the past few years of Ukrainians arresting their own people, generally for corruption in the range of 1 to 10 million. Assume for a minute that there are actually good, non-corrupt Ukrainians who want to ensure all aid gets to the front to be used in their defense. Those people are probably more motivated than any American to root out fraud.
So what is the percentage that's allowable before you feel it's unacceptable. I would be offended to the point of we might as well write them off if they have fraud of 25 to 50%. If their good people can't do better than that, then the country can't be saved. But from what I see, fraud or corruption is probably in the range of 1 to 2%.
Stop and think about the numbers, don't just quote an unsourced article full of speculation. Patriot batteries cost about 1 billion each. Ukraine has been given 5 of them (2 by states, 3 by europe), do you think 2 or 3 have went walkies? Ukraine has been given 12 NASAMS at about 400 million each (so $5 billion), probably all still in service. Ukraine has been given over 1500 air defense missiles at costs of between 1 to 4 million per missile. They have probably fired every one they can at inbound russian missiles/planes. I think the US would know if 100 patriot missiles were on the black market for sale. So I've just added up about $15 billion worth of kit, that's likly 99% been put to use. Add in all the tanks, expensive kit, half of them probably aren't on the black market.
If you search for state.gov and donated equipment, you can find a complete list of everything sent. Of 5000 HMMWVs probably a few were diverted, but if there were 2000 on the black market, we'd see it. 31 abrams, 300 bradleys, 400 strykers, probably mostly being used, we'd probably know if half the abrams were on the black market.
I could go on, but I don't think 50% corruption stands up to any scrutiny.