Things must really be getting bad, if they are using ground attack aircraft as an interceptor....

Other than them being on a ground attack mission and were intercepted themselves and had to fight, shows lots of desperation......

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, June 17, 2025 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Remember that the CIA installed Shah Pahlavi because the KGB was maneuvering the pro-Russian Mossadeq into power. But you can also remember that the Nazis were trying to maneuver Shah Pahlavi's father into power. For better or worse, the ayatollahs are the first self-chosen Iranian leaders in a century (or, really, ever).

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, June 17, 2025 - 08:11 pm: Edit

Can we get a non-religious government in there? One that will allow all Muslim and other groups worship as they please with no one group ordering the others to conform.

Sigh and Pigs can fly

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Tuesday, June 17, 2025 - 08:43 pm: Edit

At the end of the day, it falls upon the Iranians to determine how and by whom they will be governed.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Tuesday, June 17, 2025 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Steve, it's a common belief that Mosaddegh was being handled by the KGB or otherwise manipulated by the Soviet Union. However, there's no evidence of such. Rather, a suggestion was made by Churchill to Eisenhower that Mosaddegh would wind up having to depend on the pro-Soviet Tudeh Party, trigging domino-theory fears. In practice, Mosaddegh was staunchly and openly anti-communist, and was in no way keen on renewed Russian interference in Iranian affairs.

The real issue was nationalization of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, an outfit that represented the single largest foreign source of revenue for the U.K. at the time. (AIOP of course went on to become British Petroleum.) Churchill was fully committed to retaining the Iranian oil fields at any cost, and fired up Operation Boot to destabilize Mosaddegh by seeding rumors both in and out of Iran (including the aforementioned outreach to Ike).

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 02:55 am: Edit

You haven't seen what I saw decades ago. Mosaddegh was a Russian agent, period. The usual apologists notwithstanding.

Seriously, Jessica, you've been wrong every time you posted that so-and-so was not a Russian spy. Drop it.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 04:11 am: Edit

I think this probably sums up the average Gazan thoughts on the current Israeli/Iran conflict : -

“Iran has never built a school, a hospital, or even sent a single truck of aid to Gaza,” he says. “They’ve never treated a wounded person. All they did was send rockets and back Hamas, which led us to the edge of the abyss.”

Still, he adds, “I support anyone who targets Israel. Let Israeli civilians experience just for one night what we in Gaza have endured for 20 months straight.”

In other words - we don't like Hamas - we don't like Iran - they brought nothing but damage to us - but Innocnent people in Gaza are suffering at the hands of Israel and so perhaps a taste of their own medicine help?


Hopefully though some form of 'more than a cease fire' will be signed soon though - as this could horribly expand with more nations involved.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 07:58 am: Edit

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 08:26 am: Edit

Business insider, a web site posted a story, but the introduction was interesting, thought it might be ok to share part of it.

Quote: “ Since 2021, the US has shipped hundreds of howitzers to Ukraine. But over time, their barrels wear out. Replacing them isn’t easy, because America has just one factory that makes barrels for howitzers like the M777, and it’s more than 200 years old. To keep up with demand, the Pentagon has pledged $1.7 billion to modernize the facility, the Watervliet Arsenal in New York state.

Production has already tripled over the past three years, reaching its highest level in more than four decades as the US scrambles to arm Ukraine in its war against Russia.

This isn’t an isolated challenge. The US has struggled to rapidly scale up production of other critical weapons, like 155 mm artillery shells. In 2021, just one plant was manufacturing the steel casings. The US used to have hundreds of government-owned weapons facilities, but it closed many of them after World War II. Companies like Palantir have argued that the shutdowns have limited military innovation. Now, the government is spending billions to upgrade the US Army’s 23 remaining arsenals, depots, and ammunition plants.”

Make of the information, what you will.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 09:42 am: Edit

Paul, that Gazan displays a lack of basic awareness of who is and is not willing to make peace. He curiously fails to mention why they have endured that for 20 months straight.

He "supports anyone who targets Israel." So of course he is going to continue enduring it. It's partly his own fault.

Hamas wants to kill Jews. Jews do not want to be killed. Neither side is willing to compromise.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 11:29 am: Edit

William - the person in the street doesn't have much choice - even if they don't want Hamas or Iran - they are left with it (and Hamas isn't 100% of the West Bank).

But as has been shown - Israel has given scant regard to the innocents in the conflict - and the issue is, that will create MORE anti-Israeli feelings.

Whats the best way to create tomorrows terrorist/freedom fighters - kill their parents today?

Alas it's a downward spiral - who did what first has long since been forgotten - but while innoncents on both sides are at the mercy of the other sides 'extremists' - no one wins today - and it will take alot for people to change what they want to do tomorrow?

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 11:51 am: Edit

But that guy is not innocent. He will "support anyone who targets Israel".

The best way to help innocents on the side that is in the wrong is to defeat that side and hope they are smart enough to choose better leadership the next time around.

If this guy is a representative sample, the Palestinians won't do that. Their choice and their consequences.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 12:36 pm: Edit

If Jews departed Israel...
Where would the battle between Hamas supporters
and Fatah supporters be held for total control...

Can we get a non-religious government in there?

Turkey had their secular/no-religious government for decades....Didn't take them long to go back, once there was someone pushing for it to....

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 12:41 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

But as has been shown - Israel has given scant regard to the innocents in the conflict - and the issue is, that will create MORE anti-Israeli feelings.

---

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 02:30 pm: Edit

Apparently we are waiting for USS Nimitz tip get into battle range before Operation This Is Gonna Be Bad kicks off. Expect half a dozen B2s to reduce Fordow nuclear enrichment facilities to a rubble pile. Two carrier air wings will savage Iran’s coastal refineries. Ground based fighters will destroy every military target Israel hasn’t bothered with. One of those subs loaded with Tomahawks is already in the Gulf of Oman. Israel may send commandos into Iran to kill everyone at the nuclear and missile production sites down to the highly skilled janitors and receptionists. This Is Gonna Be Bad.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Well said, Ted, good to see someone far more eloquent than I take Howard to task when he spouts the endless lies of Hamas, Iran, and the Palestinian apologists.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 02:39 pm: Edit

"By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 11:51 am: Edit

But that guy is not innocent. He will "support anyone who targets Israel"."

What choice do they have?

Option 1 - Remain Silent
Option 2 - Speak out (and possibly be killed by Hamas)
Option 3 - Speak your heart

Some will have gone for Option 2 - and will have disappeared AND it wouldn't have been reported on (like the Germans who spoke out about the Nazi's - it's not a good idea to stand out and go against the crowd).

Yes, could have done Option 1 - but they must felt they had to say something.


Just because they ask someone to help protect them - it doesn't make them guilty.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 02:46 pm: Edit

"By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 12:41 pm: Edit

You would sing a different tune if 100+ people with automatic weapons showed up in England and started killing and kidnapping as many random people as they could. His Majesty's intelligence assets and military would identify the perpetrators and crush them utterly - no matter where the cowardly murderers chose to hide."

You mean like the IRA and then the Real IRA?

Was the Troubles not enough?

And now we have Terrorists going 'free' and Army members being Prosecuted.

So England (and far more Northern Ireland) have been there and look what it has got the UK, as part of the peace deal.


On the rest - I can only assume you have chosen to ignore the evidence to show Israel has done things, which should never have happened.

Israeli killing of 15 Gazan Medics on 23rd March for example? They initially lied about it (they was terrorists/Hamas etc) - and then when evidence came out, proving they Medics was doing everything required to protect them in a War Zone- they changed their account of what happened (and magically, no evidence has been produced by Israel to support their initial lies).

Clearly, 15 Medics/Emergency Workers died when they shouldn't have done.

Yes, Israel is generally trying to keep Civilian deaths low - but it's clear, something more than 'accidents' does happen - and so if you are on the receiving end of that - what can you do?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 03:19 pm: Edit

Typical of the left, Paul cherry picks isolated Israeli incidents and ignores systematic murders by Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, et al. Not quite perfect vs totally evil, for the kind of people who think the Guardian is an even handed news source, that is a moral equivalency. Go sit in the corner, Howard, we have some nice Hamas coloring books to keep you entertained. Please don’t eat the crayons.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 03:31 pm: Edit

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 04:03 pm: Edit

As I read the back and forth on here, I do wonder when or if people will wake up to the real world. I love to play my war games. SFB included. Real war however is ugly. People die innocent people die. Not just from the bombs are bullets but from starvation lack of clean water and power for their homes.

They say Isarel is committing genocide.

Definition of Genocide.
The deliberate and systematic killing or persecution of a large number of people from a particular national or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

I have not seen that as going on. Genocide is what we did to the American Indians. Killing entire villages and destroying their food production.

Yes, homes destroyed school's hospitals other infrastructure proven to hold the Hammas fighters. There is going to be innocents killed in war. I have yet to see whole towns or villages of dead people.

If there was Genocide going on. There would be thousands upon thousands running out of the area. Crossing into Egypt and elsewhere to escape the slaughter. Refugees as seen from other conflicts.

If you really want to see Genocide, then help out Hammas and the other groups against the JEWS.

Give them a NUKE. Let them fire it at Isarel. It better kill them all. They shoot it down and find it. you will get Your wish. The world will get there wish. Genocide on a scale unseen since Roman times.

Blame the Jews blame the Blacks blame the Chinese blame the illegal immigrants from Mexico and elsewhere. Blame everyone but our own lazy asses for the problems in this country. Oh, I forgot the witch trials as well. Somebody else to blame.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 04:26 pm: Edit

Paul, you were asking how to help the Palestinians. One way to NOT help them is to blame the Israelis for sometimes being wrong and for the fact that some Israelis are liars, or at least incorrect about facts.

That will encourage Hamas to continue killing Israelis, resulting in Israeli retaliations, Israeli hostage rescue missions, and lots of dead Palestinians, plus some bad press for the Israelis when they inevitably have people in their ranks who lie, or at least get facts wrong, just like every people on Earth.

Also it will encourage Hamas to continue using ambulances for military purposes, which surely contributed to this incident in the first place.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Gregory

I haven't seen any UK news source state Genocide is being done - War Crimes- yes (and various other nations have claimed this - both NATO and non-NATO (South Africa for exammple)).

Only thing I could find from a quick search was Amnesty Internatioinal has said 'their research indicated Genocide was being done' (which as a note, I don't follow/read anyhting about - I disagree with most of what I read from them when it is reported in the mainstream news).

So, no, I wouldn't say Israel is committing genocide.

I do agree though, if Hamas gone 1 Nuke - they probably (99%???) would use it.

That old phrase (paraphrasing) - "don't fear the leader who has 10 nukes, fear the mad man with 1 nuke".

So the former is Iran (probably - prior to last week, they had enough to lose by using them - but if they do have nukes now they have less to lose by using 1 or more - with Israel wanting a chnage of goverfnment in Iran's leadership perhaps now have no 'out' so what do they have to lose**?).

Hamas and Hezbollah are very different and are in the latter category.

I mentioned Syria last week - no idea which camp they would be in.


** - If you tell someone they have to fight to the death - they often will (Japan in WW2 for example could have seen this happen) - but if you give them a modest 'out' - they have a reason to take it (Germany after WW1 for example) which may have nodest benefits for everyone.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Hardcore) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Gregory, i suspect that the Gaza–Israel barrier may be the reason why the Palestinians doesn't leave.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 18, 2025 - 04:55 pm: Edit

William

So your saying it would be better for innocent or average non suppprting Hamas Palestinians to accept Israel will make mistakes AND be allowed to lie to get away with it?

Not sure I like the idea the guilty getting away with that is a good idea. Hardly ethical or honest is it?

Hamas may have used Red Crescent Ambulances (I am sure it has happened - may be at gun point - may be not) - but that doesn't renove the protection the rest should be able to enjoy.

(and for the record, the bulk of Hamas should be tried as criminals for what they have done, which I have said before - some may have done there best to help Israelis, some may have been just following orders**, but the bulk are just 100% evil).

** - and being honest - if your told 'do X or die', how many people would do X - and how many would die? If they say 'do X or your family will die' - how many would now do X?

Not an easy decision and I am glad I am not there to have to make it.